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  1. #21
    Over 9000! Hyve's Avatar
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    Mistweaver Monk can be a little tough. I don't know if they're the hardest, but there is plenty to manage and maintain, and that can be quite tough, not to mention our Mana Regen mechanic, while sounding simple and amazing, it's all about managing stacks and timing.

  2. #22
    PvP: Any healer class really. Shaman/Druid in particular.

  3. #23
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorned View Post
    Out of curiosity, what is it about Brewmasters that people are citing as difficult? They have the easiest active mitigation, an uncomplicated single-target rotation and are dead simple when it comes to AOE.
    It's not so much that they are unbelievably hard, they are simply refreshingly different to the other tank specs and take getting used to. No tanking spec is hard by any stretch of the imagination.

  4. #24
    why are people mentioning arcane mages ?? the rotation couldnt be any simpler, the "manage ur mana" part mostly means "stand on ur rune all the time", the casts are slow so you dont have to queue spells like crazy

    even frost is harder to play to perfection because its so much faster paced than arcane (1 sec gcd at all times,only 1 ffb proc at a time so you can waste it if you queue ur spells too fast, saving a FoF proc for trinkets/ffb proc with 2 piece, etc etc)

    - - - Updated - - -

    hardest specs afaik : afflic lock, feral druid, that rogue spec ( cant remember wich one)

  5. #25
    Affliction Lock: 3 DoTs to manage/snapshop, haunt management, Multi-Dot, pet management(Or not if Go:Sac)

    Feral Druid: 2 (3 with Thrash, but that's not up all the time) DoTs to manage, Savage Roar, lots of low cd abilities that need to be used constantly(faerie Fire, Tiger's Fury, etc), Energy/Combo Points ofc

    Demo Lock: 2 DoTs to manage, two resources to manage, pet management, charge system for Hand of Gul'dan, Molten Core charges to manage, Meta twisting

    None of those are in any particular order, but if I HAD to pick hardest, I would say either Demo Lock or Feral druid

  6. #26
    I think there was just a poll recently on this. The highest I remember was Feral druid.
    My shaman I guess if you want to see it or something.
    "It’s not what you have, or what you can do. Just being born, living your life… before you know it, you’re already special to someone."

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    It's not so much that they are unbelievably hard, they are simply refreshingly different to the other tank specs and take getting used to. No tanking spec is hard by any stretch of the imagination.
    BRM is a very reactive spec, it's easy to stop paying attention for a sec and get fucked.

  8. #28
    People aiming for 95% of skill cap would likely say Ferals. Once you've reached that 95% though, it's quite easy to improve those last 5%. The difficulty curve smooths out there.

    Arcane though, even at 80%, the curve goes up high and from 95 to 100% is an insane gap between skill levels due to the extreme managing of your position and your mana. You have to be able to plan ahead and miscalculating by one second will lower your dps. Perhaps not by much, but enough to separate you from the guys doing 100%.

    As a Feral you don't have to be a good "raider" to perform at 100%. You just need to know the class properly, which may be hard compared to other classes, but you don't need to be a good raider.

    To skill cap Arcane, you have to be world class raiding material, or else you'll fuck up when you haven't predicted a certain boss ability.

    But sure, if we're talking about only learning an optimal rotation and not include the necessary raiding skills you have to be able to master to actually put it to practice, then yeah. I guess I'd pick feral too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMine View Post
    why are people mentioning arcane mages ??
    Because when you actually do raid, it's more than just learning how to do a 100% optimal rotation. Some specs require you to plan ahead a bit and change your rotation slightly when you know you're going to get interrupted.

    Arcane is affected by that more than any other spec in the game right now, which adds (a LOT) to their skill cap.

    And managing their mana requires you to have a bit of experience so you know how your mana works. Any experienced player can learn which abilities to push when in a very short session, but it usually takes a while to learn your resource regeneration fully to be able to plan ahead.

  9. #29
    Pandaren Monk NuLogic's Avatar
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    Feral snapshots and is melee.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    People aiming for 95% of skill cap would likely say Ferals. Once you've reached that 95% though, it's quite easy to improve those last 5%. The difficulty curve smooths out there.

    Arcane though, even at 80%, the curve goes up high and from 95 to 100% is an insane gap between skill levels due to the extreme managing of your position and your mana. You have to be able to plan ahead and miscalculating by one second will lower your dps. Perhaps not by much, but enough to separate you from the guys doing 100%.

    As a Feral you don't have to be a good "raider" to perform at 100%. You just need to know the class properly, which may be hard compared to other classes, but you don't need to be a good raider.

    To skill cap Arcane, you have to be world class raiding material, or else you'll fuck up when you haven't predicted a certain boss ability.

    But sure, if we're talking about only learning an optimal rotation and not include the necessary raiding skills you have to be able to master to actually put it to practice, then yeah. I guess I'd pick feral too.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Because when you actually do raid, it's more than just learning how to do a 100% optimal rotation. Some specs require you to plan ahead a bit and change your rotation slightly when you know you're going to get interrupted.

    Arcane is affected by that more than any other spec in the game right now, which adds (a LOT) to their skill cap.

    And managing their mana requires you to have a bit of experience so you know how your mana works. Any experienced player can learn which abilities to push when in a very short session, but it usually takes a while to learn your resource regeneration fully to be able to plan ahead.
    You aren't taking into consideration that a ranged spec is a lot easier to play than a melee one though.

  11. #31
    Brewmaster cyqu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorned View Post
    Out of curiosity, what is it about Brewmasters that people are citing as difficult? They have the easiest active mitigation, an uncomplicated single-target rotation and are dead simple when it comes to AOE.
    no idea, i play a BrM as main and still get confused why people say its hard.
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  12. #32
    There was a poll about this 2 weeks ago. The results were Feral>>>>>Sub>Demonology.

    Still lol'ing at all the arcane mage talk.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by cyqu View Post
    no idea, i play a BrM as main and still get confused why people say its hard.
    Strange isn't it. People hold them up as the AM model when their lowest cooldown is 30 seconds. Shuffle is always up because BoK is one of the main attacks and Purify only requires 1 chi and is off the GCD. I actually feel helpless on my BrM as I have no small cooldowns to use.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazda View Post
    There was a poll about this 2 weeks ago. The results were Feral>>>>>Sub>Demonology.

    Still lol'ing at all the arcane mage talk.
    Arcane Mages are not like you think they are. They changed a hell of a lot at level 90 and all of the things you have to take into account can be overwhelming even to top players if they're new to the spec.

  15. #35
    Playing WW to the point of FoF on CD with AoC is outright impossible on most fights where there is any forced cleave, but being able to not die while knowing what the encounter and your tanks will do in a 3 second time frame every 15s is very, very hard.

    I'd argue that WW is also hard that it must manage 3 resources, Chi, Energy, and Tigereye Brew stacks, as the stacks themselves must be used every trinket proc or you lose a significant amount of DPS.

    I don't consider classes like Feral that hard as simply managing bleeds on one boss is fairly easy once you get it down, but once you get to the fights like Galakras it can be annoying. Either way, I think Feral is easy to play if you have the right addons to monitor. You can't monitor a ww rotation, however. There isn't an addon in the world that can tell you when to use FoF unless it can somehow analyze encounter timers.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by jazzyy View Post
    Playing WW to the point of FoF on CD with AoC is outright impossible on most fights where there is any forced cleave, but being able to not die while knowing what the encounter and your tanks will do in a 3 second time frame every 15s is very, very hard.

    I'd argue that WW is also hard that it must manage 3 resources, Chi, Energy, and Tigereye Brew stacks, as the stacks themselves must be used every trinket proc or you lose a significant amount of DPS.

    I don't consider classes like Feral that hard as simply managing bleeds on one boss is fairly easy once you get it down, but once you get to the fights like Galakras it can be annoying. Either way, I think Feral is easy to play if you have the right addons to monitor. You can't monitor a ww rotation, however. There isn't an addon in the world that can tell you when to use FoF unless it can somehow analyze encounter timers.

    I barely count brew stacks as a resource you have to manage, you use 10 at a time and store an extra 10, using them optimally really isn't that hard. Chi is basically CP's except it is stored on your character, also quite easy to manage as switching to another target does not lose you that Chi. And lets face it energy is one of the easiest resources to manage in the game, don't cap and you're good to go.

    If you really think bleed management is so easy then you should play the spec for yourself. The main reason feral is so powerful right now is because the difference between an average player and a top player is quite big, but blizzard can't balance around playing feral perfectly or every average feral in the game would be scraping the bottom on the dps charts.

    I'm also not too convinced about how hard using FoF is either. I cannot think of a fight this tier where boss movement is not 100% planned aside from D shamans

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraineth View Post
    I barely count brew stacks as a resource you have to manage, you use 10 at a time and store an extra 10, using them optimally really isn't that hard. Chi is basically CP's except it is stored on your character, also quite easy to manage as switching to another target does not lose you that Chi. And lets face it energy is one of the easiest resources to manage in the game, don't cap and you're good to go.

    If you really think bleed management is so easy then you should play the spec for yourself. The main reason feral is so powerful right now is because the difference between an average player and a top player is quite big, but blizzard can't balance around playing feral perfectly or every average feral in the game would be scraping the bottom on the dps charts.

    I'm also not too convinced about how hard using FoF is either. I cannot think of a fight this tier where boss movement is not 100% planned aside from D shamans
    Movement that is not 100% planned:
    (Heroics only)

    Immerseus-
    Already scratched- you can't use FoF at all (due to puddles occuring more than every 3-4s) unless it's during Swirl and even then where the "uplifts" occur are random. You could use it on the puddles to stun them.

    Fallen Protectors-
    Already out of the picture if you stack them up for cleave. FoF has a meteor-like effect which splits damage among targets. Other than that, it should be usable

    Norushen-
    Could use it here, just need to make sure cutter beam will not occur AND and a small add will not spawn and a big add will not come into your meteor-cone during channel

    Sha of Pride-
    Impossible to use FoF at all. Rifts will shoot down AoE bubbles at random times and if you stand in them you'll almost die AND take pride.

    Iron Juggernaut-
    Borer Drill, Ricochet, and that Red circle of doom are all impossible to avoid if you plan to use FoF every ~15s.

    Dark Shamans-
    Don't even bother unless you're 3 tanking and up with Haromm

    Malkorok-
    Won't be able to use on cooldown due to arcing smash, meteor cone due to adds that spawn off rDPS, also you might have to get puddles. You can plan around most of this stuff

    Spoils-
    Nope, don't even bother.

    Thok-
    Only usable in half of the fight basically, and on Heroic mode it's already basically impossible to keep up with the boss with Nitro Boast/Tiger Lust

    Siegecrafter-
    Depends on the strat, can probably use on belts if you're really good at timing (in H the belts "fire" beams move, meaning you would have to know where the beam would be 1-3s BEFORE.

    Paragons-
    Nope. Meteor-forced cleave unless you get your tanks to move out not to mention scorpions are there most of the time during the first 2 paragons, then you have Fiery Edges and quite a few more mechanics.

    Garrosh-
    Adds on P1 prevent it on CD, transmission annihilate phases prevent it unless you're lucky, and then you're kiting the boss around a lot for the rest of the fight.


    You're not convinced? As to what exactly? Here, let me begin:

    Basic Criteria for FoF:
    RSK can't come off CD
    TP can't fall off (<5s)
    <60 Energy & EB is on CD
    You won't have to move
    You won't get parried (if 1 or more of the 4 FoF "tics" misses, instant DPS loss.)
    The boss won't move

    Other criteria you should attempt to meet while doing this:
    Chi Wave on CD
    No CB: Blackout Kick procs


    Remember that because we are now using Chi Brew meaning you can't "bank" 5 Chi, hit FoF, then RSK. You have to use a Jab or a Chi Brew charge to get room for an RSK. But that's not just it, we are also neglecting that we should attempt to use FoF to "snapshot" Trinket procs as it will keep your current Agility in the FoF calculation so extending a TED proc at 20 stacks is beneficial however if you use FoF on CD you may run into where the trinket might mid channel effectively fucking you over and that's not even talking abuot Dancing Steel, Synapse Springs, etc procs and since FoF disables your AA's we're looking at even a higher DPS loss than if you simply BoK till you wanted to cry.

    To put into perspective of how fucked the skill is:
    https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...41418519183360

    A Developer's tweet about FoF usage: "@1Dragonstrike @WindborneSword It should be, for optimal DPS. Community doesn't follow that logic, unfortunately."

    A Developer's tweet that is a response to using FoF on CD "@Kyplor It's a reasonable starting assumption, but not *always* the case."

    I barely count brew stacks as a resource you have to manage, you use 10 at a time and store an extra 10, using them optimally really isn't that hard. Chi is basically CP's except it is stored on your character, also quite easy to manage as switching to another target does not lose you that Chi. And lets face it energy is one of the easiest resources to manage in the game, don't cap and you're good to go.
    Not capping is easy unless you have an ability like FoF not to mention Heroism/Time Warp will fuck over an Energy class a lot more than any others due to energy capping rather quickly and wasting potential energy. You can fill evey GCD in a Heroism and still cap. Good designs though.

    If you really think bleed management is so easy then you should play the spec for yourself.
    If you really think FoF management is so easy please by all means link me the logs that present you using FoF on CD with AoC on any fight while also making sure you meet the whole "casting" FoF criteria posted above. Hint: even top parsing monks can barely do 1 FoF/min.

    The main reason feral is so powerful right now is because the difference between an average player and a top player is quite big, but blizzard can't balance around playing feral perfectly or every average feral in the game would be scraping the bottom on the dps charts.
    The difference between an average player and a top player for a LOT of casters matters, less so for most melee due to the fact AA's making up a huge part of the damage, Ferals being the exception.

    I barely count brew stacks as a resource you have to manage, you use 10 at a time and store an extra 10, using them optimally really isn't that hard.
    TEB acts almost completely like your bleeds, in that you must use it every time it is most beneficial to use it. Being during trinket procs, during bloodlust, during stormlash, during crit banner, during encounter mechanics (JinRokh pools, etc). You must make sure you do not cap out (Hey, just like energy), but make sure you are not always using it unnecessarily so you have some for when it REALLY matters, so not wasting TEB stacks on stuff like double dancing steel procs (Hey, this is kind of like healers mana management not wasting mana on things you don't need to!)

    Albeit TEB is a little less intensive than say Mana Tea, it is borderline the same pipeline as a resource for WW in the sense of:

    Spend Energy > Generate Chi > Spend Chi > Generate TEB > Spend TEB > Generate Damage
    TEB works the same as any other resource's base guide lines: There's a minimum, there's a maximum, there is a time to use it, there are skills to use it, there are skills that affect its generation (Think Tiger's Fury from Druids as the same as Chi Brew for Monks), and there is a benefit to spending it.

    Your analogy is pretty dumb too: "I barely count energy stacks as a resource you have to manage, you use 40 at a time (Jab), and store an extra 60, using that optimally really isn't that hard."
    You even agree with me later in your post:

    And lets face it energy is one of the easiest resources to manage in the game, don't cap and you're good to go.
    You even label Energy as a resource. TEB can be summarized the same way, don't cap and you're good to go. You have to be a bit smarter about TEB usage than Energy usage, though.

    edit:
    Heck, with the T16 4pc TEB can be considered even more like a resource since using it will reduce your required Chi to perform abilities like FoF BoK and RSK, making it even more like a resource cycle like Mana Tea because it indirectly gives you more energy since you will need less Chi to deal damage.
    In fact, it would be kind of cool if Elusive Brew and Tigereye Brew were like Mana Tea in that regard where they full "cycle." Maybe have TEB giving Energy or perhaps ingrain the 4pc into Monks. Would be rather neat since Monks can feel kind of blank.
    Last edited by jazzyy; 2014-01-27 at 04:02 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by torment3d View Post
    Arcane Mages are not like you think they are. They changed a hell of a lot at level 90 and all of the things you have to take into account can be overwhelming even to top players if they're new to the spec.
    Meh. Maybe. But there's no doubt that they don't come close to what I listed.

  19. #39
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but one of my main alts is my mage and the only mage spec that has remotely any kind of difficulty is Fire simply due to the RNG involved in Pyro stacking and getting good combusts off. Arcane is still a joke regardless of what some claim, and Frost is probably one of the easiest specs in the game to do well with.
    Ofc there is a huge spread between an average and a great mage, but that goes for pretty much any spec. At a base level, mage is retardedly easy compared to most other caster specs save maybe Ele.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    I'm sorry but one of my main alts is my mage and the only mage spec that has remotely any kind of difficulty is Fire simply due to the RNG involved in Pyro stacking and getting good combusts off. Arcane is still a joke regardless of what some claim, and Frost is probably one of the easiest specs in the game to do well with.
    Ofc there is a huge spread between an average and a great mage, but that goes for pretty much any spec. At a base level, mage is retardedly easy compared to most other caster specs save maybe Ele.
    I agree with frost being laughably easy, however arcane is far more challenging than fire. Your combustion is just popping your cooldowns/trinkets (and alter time macro if you have it up) and making a judgement call on exactly when to fire the combustion (you have some gcds to chose from afaik). Arcane on the other hand is heavily penalized by movement and needs to plan around this and the cooldown of blink very well to compete. As fire your rotation just continues really...

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