AV Changes in latest patch.

[mirthen]

Well when it was mentioned the tiny changes were going in to this patch for AV, i didnt really think it would make that much of a difference. So far though i have noticed horde dominating AV tonight. I dont mean just winning the BG, i mean getting perfection multiple times in a row. On my alli toons i would always just chain AV for honor grinding, was almost always a win. Early impressions now though seems the tables have turned a good bit?

Anyone else have other observations on the effects of recent changes in AV?

Could just be some good luck, happens.

[eLiTe_J_]

im currently 4 wins out of 6. 3 of those 4 wins have been turtle wins and only 1 of those 4 wins have been the normal 10 min win. Both losses were turtle losses.

(coming from my alliance char)

[Deleted]

So was it back to old times or were they just a bit different?

[Deleted]

Doubt they make a big impact tbh.

I play both factions actively in PvP and both just use very different strategies and tactics.

[eLiTe_J_]

So was it back to old times or were they just a bit different?

its actually back to the way it was yesterday tbh. ive won 8 in a row now via zerg(on my alliance).

[Skarssen]

Horde doesn't lose AV because of the fence jumping exploit. They lose because they NEVER defend their towers and just run right to the end immediately. Alliance teams usually send a large backcap team to SHB and IWB, which of course gives them a major advantage, now more than ever with the unlikely event that a disorganized horde team is going to kill Vann with 4 lieutenants up. There is no reason to expect that this change is going to affect the Horde win:loss ratio.

[Raiju]

Horde doesn't lose AV because of the fence jumping exploit. They lose because they NEVER defend their towers and just run right to the end immediately. Alliance teams usually send a large backcap team to SHB and IWB, which of course gives them a major advantage, now more than ever with the unlikely event that a disorganized horde team is going to kill Vann with 4 lieutenants up. There is no reason to expect that this change is going to affect the Horde win:loss ratio.

Never seen alliance have more than 5 go back since cata. Anecdotes on either side, but the alliance run was faster and easier for the mass zergers so alliance won. simple.

[Celawien]

I played 5 games last night and all 5 games we(Alliance) still won by a good margin, even with Horde trying to back cap and get into Dreks room.

[Kaleredar]

Never seen alliance have more than 5 go back since cata. Anecdotes on either side, but the alliance run was faster and easier for the mass zergers so alliance won. simple.

Every AV team I've seen in recent history has had Alliance Back capping.

Namely because I lead the backcapping charge.

The horde's strategy is their reason for failure in AV, not some chincey terrain blob or archer positioning.

[Splatter]

Every AV team I've seen in recent history has had Alliance Back capping.

Namely because I lead the backcapping charge.

The horde's strategy is their reason for failure in AV, not some chincey terrain blob or archer positioning.

Completely agree. Alliance defend horde towers they cap and back cap their towers back. Horde run to Vans room and sit on the GY saying "hurr durr why aren't we all in hurr durr". Hopefully the changes to npc's etc will force stupid players to actually cap and defend towers. Should also make the horde keep and towers easier to defend in a bottleneck like the ally bridge.

[Brakos]

It's the lull between seasons. The reason that Horde was bringing the pain last night has less to do with the AV changes and more to do with more horde that solely arena and RBG doing randoms/AV on their toons for fun.

The reasons I had losses last night were due to organized groups of horde with large numbers of 5 man premades doing solid recapping and rush blocking.

[HolgerDK]

Every AV team I've seen in recent history has had Alliance Back capping.

Namely because I lead the backcapping charge.

The horde's strategy is their reason for failure in AV, not some chincey terrain blob or archer positioning.

Every AV team you have seen since the release of AV is an abysmally small portion of the AV games played since that release, and statistically very insigninficant.

[Verain]

My friends and I backcap hardcore (as ally). But as Holger points out, if you yourself are a really good player who can shift the colors on the map, then you are not going to have a typical AV experience.

[Kaleredar]

Every AV team you have seen since the release of AV is an abysmally small portion of the AV games played since that release, and statistically very insigninficant.

Well, seeing as I've been playing AVs since before Cata (even though recent matches are what are in question anyway...), and I've basically noticed the same basic trend, along with most everyone else on this forum, we're all apparently very lucky (or unlucky if you play horde) to all observe this exact same trend.

[Raiju]

Well, seeing as I've been playing AVs since before Cata (even though recent matches are what are in question anyway...), and I've basically noticed the same basic trend, along with most everyone else on this forum, we're all apparently very lucky (or unlucky if you play horde) to all observe this exact same trend.

You stated yourself that you lead the backcapping. That instantly makes your anecdote void as you are intentionally skewing it to favour your argument (or more your argument fits how you play rather than the standard AV)

What you're suggesting is in 1 SINGLE BG which has proven map imbalances, the alliance all play better - but then play worse in every other BG bar IoC, and the map imbalances have nothing to do with the statistical W/L we've seen in the past.

I also want to see these people on the forum, given most threads are flooded with alliance saying "yeah but you win the other BG's", not "yeah but we backcap", and even horde stating they backcap but still lose due to tower defense.

Horde towers are easier to initially defend, but to play this way you have to forfeit the quick win immediately and go straight for turtle. Alliance is the opposite they are easier to take and easier to take back (assuming defense in both cases). When talking about the usual masses the alliance ones were harder to take because most people didn't realize you could avoid the archers in the alliance ones like you can the horde ones.

Everything points to the imbalance NOT being an unequal strategy issues, but more an equal strategy working unequally. Horde can defend their towers fine, alliance can defend their bunkers not so fine, alliance can defend tower caps fine, horde can defend bunker caps not so fine. The meaning of this equality? Alliance is better at zerging because the offensive is easier than the defensive. Zerging is what is popular in AV since the rewards for long turtle matches aren't worth it for most. (all prepatch)

[Kaleredar]

You stated yourself that you lead the backcapping. That instantly makes your anecdote void as you are intentionally skewing it to favour your argument (or more your argument fits how you play rather than the standard AV)

"Invalidating it" would only serve then to prove that either 1) I'm a ridiculously good player that can swing a 40v40 match by myself (probably not true) or that 2) it's so ridiculously easy to change up the stream of things with a few people it'd be idiotic not to do it, and complaining about a strategy that doesn't include playing smart (which, as we've established in this line of thought, is apparently doable by only one person) in this way is pointless as you're not playing optimally in the first place. It's like two people eating soup, one of whom is using a spoon, the other a fork, and the person with the fork looks over and thinks "well his soup must be thicker; that's how he can eat it so fast" and not stopping to consider why the hell they don't use a spoon themselves.

What you're suggesting is in 1 SINGLE BG which has proven map imbalances, the alliance all play better - but then play worse in every other BG bar IoC, and the map imbalances have nothing to do with the statistical W/L we've seen in the past.

Those little minutia terrain differences are absolutely meaningless in the long run. Maybe 1 in 50 matches is decided at the bridge. The horde just do terrible from the start. They get swatched in half and end up fighting a losing ground battle at frostwolf garrison while the horde up north dodder around until the alliance back cappers come up and purge them out. (quite contrary to the apparent "completely impassable" nature of the bridge)

I also want to see these people on the forum, given most threads are flooded with alliance saying "yeah but you win the other BG's", not "yeah but we backcap", and even horde stating they backcap but still lose due to tower defense.

I don't really see why the Alliance need to know why they win in this debate if the horde don't know why they lose.

Horde towers are easier to initially defend, but to play this way you have to forfeit the quick win immediately and go straight for turtle. Alliance is the opposite they are easier to take and easier to take back (assuming defense in both cases). When talking about the usual masses the alliance ones were harder to take because most people didn't realize you could avoid the archers in the alliance ones like you can the horde ones.

"Harder?" The few milliseconds it takes for you (or god forbid a teammate working towards a common goal) to kill that archer are meaningless in the long run, especially if back capping is in play.

Everything points to the imbalance NOT being an unequal strategy issues, but more an equal strategy working unequally. Horde can defend their towers fine, alliance can defend their bunkers not so fine, alliance can defend tower caps fine, horde can defend bunker caps not so fine. The meaning of this equality? Alliance is better at zerging because the offensive is easier than the defensive. Zerging is what is popular in AV since the rewards for long turtle matches aren't worth it for most. (all prepatch)

Back-capping eliminates all of those factors by a wide margin. Especially when you have ACTUAL back cappers dedicated to getting a tower back and not just farming kills or preserving some sort of K/D ratio. Three alliance can sit in iceblood tower, but if seven horde come steamrolling up that ramp (and aren't terrible players in heroic dungeon blues) those Alliance are dead, "tiny room" be damned. And you know how you get people out of those towers? Priest runs in and hits fear. All the alliance scatter down the ramp. Congrats, the horde are now defending that tower.

[Zka]

Last night I took AV off the ignore list to check out. Then put it back on after the first match.

[Deleted]

just some idee , why not increase honor per kill or increase honor per time in AV.
You can still go for a quick zerg rush and have the same honor/time (if you win) but now turtleing is not so a big punishement. And maybe it will bring back pvp in av.

[Thelxi]

The small changes I saw (little hill removed outside horde base outer walls etc) will have pretty much 0 impact on faction balance. The biggest "problem" is that it is much much easier and quicker for alliance to rush cap the 2 horde base towers. This is by far the biggest factor in statistical faction imbalance.

Imo it's fine as it is though, if alliance lose AV then they will have left nothing, and frankly as a horde if you make it a point to rush cap THEIR 2 towers at the start of each AV, you will already have done more than a small Blizzard change would ever do for you.

[Synbaby]

I did 4 AVs on my alliance hunter last night, and won all of them. It did feel like horde was actually trying harder though because the matches lasted longer, which is good because I got more honor and hks