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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Pointless to speculate how things are going to turn out. If you think level 100 talents are the only new changes, then you're in for a surprise. Also, going by history, Ret has started off in most expansions badly then good. Only WOTLK was Ret really over the top at the start.

    I expect Ret to be bad at the start of WOD, and that's why I'll be avoiding to purchase the game until I hear otherwise. Good rule of thumb is to pay attention to the complaints of the forums. If people want Ret nerfed, then you know it's ok to play. Throughout MOP I didn't hear anyone complain about Ret, so you know that's not good.
    It is a good rule of thumb for paladins.

    1. If only a small amount of people complain about it, it's probably disgustingly underpowered.

    2. If a moderate amount of people complain about it, it's probably under powered.

    3. If a large amount of people complain about it, it's probably middle ground

    4. If almost every complains about it, it's probably top 3.

    5. If everyone even paladin's complain about it, you're probably playing cataclysm again and no one wants to play with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerus View Post
    For example: A rocket launcher against a kitten=obliterated kitten. A rocket launcher against a tank=singed armor plating. Same attack or spell (in relation to WoW) has two different effects against against a level 80 player (kitten) and a level 85 one (tank) because of scaling.

  2. #42
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    I have this sneaking suspicion Paladin's are getting a minor class rework in WoD. It's easily the most out dated class in the game, and with the loss of reforging it'll just suffer more.
    I actually wanted Reforging removed. The more I thought about it, now I'm like "No, don't remove it!"
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron

  3. #43
    Epic! Swampmoose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I actually wanted Reforging removed. The more I thought about it, now I'm like "No, don't remove it!"
    I'm only getting back into WoW from Wrath and I hate it. It's nice when you get to end game for absolute maximization, but I'm already tired of needing to regem, reforge 8 pieces of gear everytime I get 1 new piece because of how much it allows you to customize and rework your gear. Of course if you don't care about min/maxing, I guess it's a nice feature.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...t&n=Swampmoose

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  4. #44
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampmoose View Post
    I'm only getting back into WoW from Wrath and I hate it. It's nice when you get to end game for absolute maximization, but I'm already tired of needing to regem, reforge 8 pieces of gear everytime I get 1 new piece because of how much it allows you to customize and rework your gear. Of course if you don't care about min/maxing, I guess it's a nice feature.
    Yeah except Hit and Expertise is being removed. That makes the gemming/reforging that much easier.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Yeah except Hit and Expertise is being removed. That makes the gemming/reforging that much easier.
    Without hit/expertise, reforging isn't really a "feature" it is a noob check- i.e. can you go to MMO-champ and see what stat you are supposed to be reforging everything into or not?

    Hence, why it is being removed.

  6. #46
    Stood in the Fire Zabannith's Avatar
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    Speaking of final verdict , does anybody know how much armour a raid level boss has on average? (ie how much of a reg TV would be mitigated?)
    If we knew this we could speculate how much of a dps gain final verdict may be in its current iteration (seeing as how currently its 250% holy wpn dmg instead of 275% that TV currently has) we could compare the values of the armour mitigation vs the less wpn dmg hit bypassing that armour plus inq and mastery ...just a thought

    New Ability: Renounce. When cast, Renounce permanently changes the Paladin into a Warrior.

  7. #47
    Epic! Swampmoose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Yeah except Hit and Expertise is being removed. That makes the gemming/reforging that much easier.
    Even though it may become easier, it will still remain mandatory for end-game raiders, even though it will be much less useful. At that point it's just a silly exercise of swap your worst stat for your best everytime you get a new item. No thought needs to go into it whatsoever. There isn't anything fun about it, yet it remains mandatory. I don't' think they want that combination.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...t&n=Swampmoose

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    Stop getting horny goo, judge on cd.

  8. #48
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heerobya View Post
    Without hit/expertise, reforging isn't really a "feature" it is a noob check- i.e. can you go to MMO-champ and see what stat you are supposed to be reforging everything into or not?

    Hence, why it is being removed.
    Yeah but you'll won't have so many stats to juggle around.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Yeah but you'll won't have so many stats to juggle around.
    Even with Hit/Expertise being removed it's still going to be "Whats the best stat to stack? Better convert the lesser stats into the must have stat"
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  10. #50
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    Even with Hit/Expertise being removed it's still going to be "Whats the best stat to stack? Better convert the lesser stats into the must have stat"
    That's obvious and I know that. That and I have a sneaking suspicion these teritary stats might be related.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron

  11. #51
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    I don't know why this is a worry. I mean, sure the bad taste is still there and present, but is it really that prominent of a worry?

    I think Blizzard realized in the transition that they had screwed up, but that they will avoid going down that path as much as possible. They never want to release something and then nerf it, especially like with 3.0.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swampmoose View Post
    Even though it may become easier, it will still remain mandatory for end-game raiders, even though it will be much less useful. At that point it's just a silly exercise of swap your worst stat for your best everytime you get a new item. No thought needs to go into it whatsoever. There isn't anything fun about it, yet it remains mandatory. I don't' think they want that combination.
    Yeah, it's one of those "givens" that while it gives the illusion of choice and depth it's really just shallow. It was really just a game of "hit the target" which became trivial quite fast. Especially with sites and add ons to calculate it for you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    Even with Hit/Expertise being removed it's still going to be "Whats the best stat to stack? Better convert the lesser stats into the must have stat"
    Exactly. I do enjoy reforging, it's just shallow and doesn't offer much.
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Zabannith View Post
    Speaking of final verdict , does anybody know how much armour a raid level boss has on average? (ie how much of a reg TV would be mitigated?)
    If we knew this we could speculate how much of a dps gain final verdict may be in its current iteration (seeing as how currently its 250% holy wpn dmg instead of 275% that TV currently has) we could compare the values of the armour mitigation vs the less wpn dmg hit bypassing that armour plus inq and mastery ...just a thought
    Most bosses have 24840ish armor (only 80% sure it's all.) So with the 12% armor shred other clases bring it ends up being 32% physical damage reduction.

    So lets say you do 275% Physical weapon damage for a 200k hit (weapon damage 72727). After mitigation of just armor it does 151515 damage. 157575 with the 4% physical damage vulnerability.

    Now same weapon for 72727 damage. 181817 holy damage completely unmitigated. Now adding inquisition's 30% bonus. Would be 236362 damage.

    So it would be roughly a 1.50 (1.4999999 rounded up) times damage increase, with those numbers.
    Last edited by Borigrad; 2014-01-30 at 10:06 PM.
    I'm glad to have multiple personalities, if i didn't i would be talking to myself, and that's just insane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerus View Post
    For example: A rocket launcher against a kitten=obliterated kitten. A rocket launcher against a tank=singed armor plating. Same attack or spell (in relation to WoW) has two different effects against against a level 80 player (kitten) and a level 85 one (tank) because of scaling.

  13. #53
    I wouldn't mind a 3.0 situation, being OP for a few days would be nice, and ret remained strong throughout wrath.

    I'm more worried about a 4.0 situation.
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Yeah but you'll won't have so many stats to juggle around.
    There are 3 new secondary stats coming. So it's actually more. And no I don't mean the tertiary stats.

  15. #55
    Ret is holy-like-helll and that holy dmg suited to him like nothing else, and ret deserve something like this

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Swampmoose View Post
    If you pay attention to complaints on forums about classes, you would think that every single class was either OP or completely bad to the point of being unplayable. There is no middle of the road in the eyes of a WoW player.
    You have to know how to listen to people. Being able to filter the nonsense from the truth. But fact is, every expansion players would complain about Ret Paladins. To some extent or another.

    Nerf Bubble
    Nerf Burst
    Nerf Healing

    These are the usual complaints I would hear throughout the years, but not in MOP. I consider MOP Ret to be very poor in PvE and PvP performance. It's not TBC bad, but underwhelming for sure.

    It's no different then going on Amazon and reading reviews for a product. Just gotta know who's full of it, or telling the truth.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    I didn't play in Vanilla but since TBC ret has been anything but a leveling spec a perfectly fine if you are competent enough to actually play the game. Of course I'm not a mind reader so I can only imagine what you have done. From your tone it probably starts with an L and ends with R

    Reforge removal however is a step backwards for blizzard. Fucking idiots
    Here you go, my Ret:

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Atrexia/simple

    Every tier completed on heroic, while it was current. Quit shortly after we started progressing in HC SoO and I saw it would be another go-warlock-or-gtfo tier. (Yes, I am one of those people who quit WoW yet keeps visiting MMOC, laugh at me)

    LFR is actually the only raid mode I havent completed lol, fucking cant stand it.
    Every good deed shall be rightfully punished. *** If you want to have something done right, you have to do it yourself.

  18. #58
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampmoose View Post
    I'm only getting back into WoW from Wrath and I hate it. It's nice when you get to end game for absolute maximization, but I'm already tired of needing to regem, reforge 8 pieces of gear everytime I get 1 new piece because of how much it allows you to customize and rework your gear. Of course if you don't care about min/maxing, I guess it's a nice feature.
    reforge light set weights <dont really matter as long as haste > mastery > crit have a bigger number then eachother. Click . PRESTO gearset reforged. It's then up to you to make modifications like I could give a shit less about being .03% under the exp cap when going for it means i lose like 2% mastery. F that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Horymir View Post
    Here you go, my Ret:

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Atrexia/simple

    Every tier completed on heroic, while it was current. Quit shortly after we started progressing in HC SoO and I saw it would be another go-warlock-or-gtfo tier. (Yes, I am one of those people who quit WoW yet keeps visiting MMOC, laugh at me)

    LFR is actually the only raid mode I havent completed lol, fucking cant stand it.
    Still makes no sense why you called it a leveling spec. I've been an asset going on 13 tiers now and it certainly wasn't based how i handled Vargoth's Staff

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    You have to know how to listen to people. Being able to filter the nonsense from the truth. But fact is, every expansion players would complain about Ret Paladins. To some extent or another.

    Nerf Bubble
    Nerf Burst
    Nerf Healing

    These are the usual complaints I would hear throughout the years, but not in MOP. I consider MOP Ret to be very poor in PvE and PvP performance. It's not TBC bad, but underwhelming for sure.

    It's no different then going on Amazon and reading reviews for a product. Just gotta know who's full of it, or telling the truth.
    TBC ret wasn't even bad. Just difficult or a retarded raid leader going hurp durp you dont get melee group / buffs. OH hey why you doing low dps durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Had that happen. My fucking forehead was throbbing from the stupid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sildor View Post
    I wouldn't mind a 3.0 situation, being OP for a few days would be nice, and ret remained strong throughout wrath.

    I'm more worried about a 4.0 situation.
    we had a 3.0 situation. It happened in DS when rets seal got broken and would infinite loop until the boss died at ludicrous speed

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post

    Exactly. I do enjoy reforging, it's just shallow and doesn't offer much.
    Imagine if reforging was removed in MoP instead. Then ToT happened. ZERATS and FEATHER. sup guys you have enough hit for the whole melee roster. Sup

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Yeah except Hit and Expertise is being removed. That makes the gemming/reforging that much easier.
    It really does actually. Juggling hit and expertise now since it's mostly Via gems I'm like weeeeee

    oh BTW gemming isn't guaranteed they already said nearly all sockets will be "procs" like WF to be on gear. So not only are we fucked on reforging to haste. we certainly arent going to have the slots to gem it. We need a huge chunk of baseline haste or SoB HAS to be scrapped entirely in beta. it does NOT work anymore with the new systems coming.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2014-01-31 at 03:58 AM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Zabannith View Post
    Personally I'm a little worried about final verdict sure it sounds amazing currently, and I have no doubt it will be our best dps talent.

    But what worries me is a repeat of 3.0 when we did all that holy damage, just think of it , somebody in pvp gets 1 shot up by a ret with cds running and a 100% holy TV -goes to forums to cry that we need a nerf because we can 100% bypass armour with our finisher plus inquisition and plus mastery damage.

    Blizz listens and nerfs us into the ground again and nerfs our other damage , or our cds , or they redesign the talent.

    Has anybody else thought of this scenario?
    I have, and it keeps me up at night.

  20. #60
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borigrad View Post
    Unless seals are off the GCD it'll be to much lost damage compared to the Holy Weapon damage one + inquisition. Assuming this remains unchanged. I get the feeling it'll change, all 3 of them. They are fairly generic and don't really match the feel of a Paladin talent.



    I have this sneaking suspicion Paladin's are getting a minor class rework in WoD. It's easily the most out dated class in the game, and with the loss of reforging it'll just suffer more.
    We need fucking baseline MELEE HASTE, not attack speed. HASTE. Goddamn dks get enough attack speed from Icy talons we need enough BASELINE haste to make the spec even managable barring fucked up itemization. This should be a heavy point to stick up their ass come beta.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2014-01-31 at 03:59 AM.

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