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  1. #1
    The Patient Laraven's Avatar
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    A little help please...

    So, I'm a BM hunter. My raid leader keeps telling me that the Ticking Ebon Detonator is NOT my BiS. I have AoC and HT at the moment. And every time TED drops, he tells me it's not good for my spec. I have tried looking it up to show him it is a BiS trinket for BM, but I can't find a post that is clear on the subject.

    So is this trinket BiS for BM? And if so, can you explain a bit why, so I can show this to my raid leader.

    Thank you very much in advance.

  2. #2
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    It is 2nd BiS (after AoC). It is definitely better than HT for BM, and it should be your 2nd trinket. Tell your raid leader this: The multistrike proc off HT doesn't trigger off pet attacks, which is 60% of BM's damage. This is enough to make TED better than HT in BM. This isn't to say that TED is a better trinket than HT in a vacuum. It's merely saying that HT is "broken" for a pet spec (which would be true for any other agility pet-based spec, if there was one).

  3. #3
    AoC is just BiS for all specs. So the choice for the second trinket is Haromm's and TED. The problem with Haromm's for BM is that your pet cannot proc the multistrike meaning that instead of being 7-8% of your dps it is closer to 3-4% (percents may be off). That's not to say that TED is a worse trinket over all. TED is lacking for SV because of the way that the agi proc tapers off. It just doesn't work really well with SV's ES spam, it would be much better if it was a stacking agi proc. BM however isn't affect by the way the agi tappers off. If the multistrike did proc off the pet Haromm's might be better, but it doesn't really matter as that is not the case currently. If your raid leader isn't convinced just do some sims with both trinkets and show that to your RL.

  4. #4
    Your raid leader is a moron.

  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral Kissthebaby's Avatar
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    It is bis for BM

    kissthebaby#1726

  6. #6
    It is in the BiS profiles for BM. Perhaps your raid leader has heard that Haromm's is better if you need to switch between SV and BM? Regardless, it is definitely BiS for BM.

  7. #7
    I don't even play a hunter, but just looking at some of the top logs for BM hunters on a single target fight (I am using Iron Jugg for this) I looked up 3 sample hunters in the top 25 that are using Haromm's, not sure if its heroic or what, I don't rly care toooo much to go and check, but on average this trinket multistrike proc is doing 11.7 - 13k DPS (Effective DPS which is damage done / the time of the fight in seconds to see the actual effective DPS)

    So lets go out on a limb here and put the Heroic Warforged TED up against a minimum of a 12k (rounding down here for emphasis) which is 4.2% mastery (pet damage) DOUBLE upgraded (iLvL 580) so lets take for instance one of the hunters in this topics, top parse, Kisstehbaby. Their pet did 210373 effective DPS on this fight, take 4.2% of that and it is 8835 DPS, but oh you will reforge out of the mastery into haste or crit? lets take 40% of the mastery and turn it into crit which would give you 1008 crit rating which is about 1.7% crit, but leaves you at 1511 mastery which is which takes you back to 2.52% mastery (pet damage) which would put you back to +5302 DPS from just the mastery, and 1.7% overall since your pet gets 100% of your crit rating, so they puts you at 5302 DPS from the mastery buff, and 7405 (1.7% of Kittehbaby's total dps on Iron Jugg, which was 435607 EFFECTIVE) so we have 12.7k in a BEST CASE SCENARIO.

    I know this doesn't say OMG ITS BETTER LOOK I HAVE PROOFS, it is just a very very tiny sample that I took from the top logs for BM hunters and what it looks like at a first glance, I also AVERAGE EVERYTHING in the favor of TED so if anything TED is worse than in my example, and when you go to include things such as 4piece BM where your pet has 25% damage for your 2nd kill command and you get the full benefit of the proc from Haromms, and a total shit part of the proc from TED because it is about to fall off.
    Both trinkets are RPPM. TED is obviously better for the first KC and ArcShots, but then it falls behind Haromm's. I didn't look much into the buff procs to see which is better, but I assume they both have their pros and cons, honestly the constant is more of a benefit to me seeing as you only have a better proc for the first 5 secs and then it falls behind haromms for the rest, take into account reaction time, GCD, cooldown of abilities, etc I feel like the buff proc would fall behind the static proc from haromm's. So the only real arguing point I see here is the passive proc being why I took 20minutes into looking it up.

    I am very open to being told my math is completely wrong or I am just looking at this in a completely wrong way, but you guys do not support any math in your claims besides "omg haromms no proc on pet attacks wow it sux". Seeing as what was asked here was some validity or some proof of TED being better than HT.

    TLDR; From 10minutes of looking at logs of the top 1% BM parses, and 5minutes of math, it seems like in the BEST CASE SCENARIO, TED passive is equal to HT in the top 1% of logs of haromms multistrike proc.

    Also the Hunters I used for examples with HT procs:
    Гумелев - 3464239 damage over a 4:33 fight = 12,691 effective DPS
    Selindae - 3149110 damage over 4:32 fight = 12,001 effective DPS
    Dyveriate - 2910989 damage over a 4:08 fight = 11.738 effective DPS
    Last edited by xMoore; 2014-01-27 at 09:26 AM.

  8. #8
    The Patient Laraven's Avatar
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    ^ my raid leader.

  9. #9
    I'm not good at math, but FD is Sims for me (with 574 AoC):
    BM 574 TED: 368244.88
    BM 574 HT: 366134.61

    A small difference, but TED > HT.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by xMoore View Post
    I don't even play a hunter, but just looking at some of the top logs for BM hunters on a single target fight (I am using Iron Jugg for this) I looked up 3 sample hunters in the top 25 that are using Haromm's, not sure if its heroic or what, I don't rly care toooo much to go and check, but on average this trinket multistrike proc is doing 11.7 - 13k DPS (Effective DPS which is damage done / the time of the fight in seconds to see the actual effective DPS)

    So lets go out on a limb here and put the Heroic Warforged TED up against a minimum of a 12k (rounding down here for emphasis) which is 4.2% mastery (pet damage) DOUBLE upgraded (iLvL 580) so lets take for instance one of the hunters in this topics, top parse, Kisstehbaby. Their pet did 210373 effective DPS on this fight, take 4.2% of that and it is 8835 DPS, but oh you will reforge out of the mastery into haste or crit? lets take 40% of the mastery and turn it into crit which would give you 1008 crit rating which is about 1.7% crit, but leaves you at 1511 mastery which is which takes you back to 2.52% mastery (pet damage) which would put you back to +5302 DPS from just the mastery, and 1.7% overall since your pet gets 100% of your crit rating, so they puts you at 5302 DPS from the mastery buff, and 7405 (1.7% of Kittehbaby's total dps on Iron Jugg, which was 435607 EFFECTIVE) so we have 12.7k in a BEST CASE SCENARIO.

    I know this doesn't say OMG ITS BETTER LOOK I HAVE PROOFS, it is just a very very tiny sample that I took from the top logs for BM hunters and what it looks like at a first glance, I also AVERAGE EVERYTHING in the favor of TED so if anything TED is worse than in my example, and when you go to include things such as 4piece BM where your pet has 25% damage for your 2nd kill command and you get the full benefit of the proc from Haromms, and a total shit part of the proc from TED because it is about to fall off.
    Both trinkets are RPPM. TED is obviously better for the first KC and ArcShots, but then it falls behind Haromm's. I didn't look much into the buff procs to see which is better, but I assume they both have their pros and cons, honestly the constant is more of a benefit to me seeing as you only have a better proc for the first 5 secs and then it falls behind haromms for the rest, take into account reaction time, GCD, cooldown of abilities, etc I feel like the buff proc would fall behind the static proc from haromm's. So the only real arguing point I see here is the passive proc being why I took 20minutes into looking it up.

    I am very open to being told my math is completely wrong or I am just looking at this in a completely wrong way, but you guys do not support any math in your claims besides "omg haromms no proc on pet attacks wow it sux". Seeing as what was asked here was some validity or some proof of TED being better than HT.

    TLDR; From 10minutes of looking at logs of the top 1% BM parses, and 5minutes of math, it seems like in the BEST CASE SCENARIO, TED passive is equal to HT in the top 1% of logs of haromms multistrike proc.

    Also the Hunters I used for examples with HT procs:
    Гумелев - 3464239 damage over a 4:33 fight = 12,691 effective DPS
    Selindae - 3149110 damage over 4:32 fight = 12,001 effective DPS
    Dyveriate - 2910989 damage over a 4:08 fight = 11.738 effective DPS
    Who the hell cares about only the passive. The thing that makes TED so damn good for BM is the proc.

    Learn to use simcraft. Learn how to read simcraft. Learn the proper hunter stat weights. Learn to accept when you're wrong.

    Trust me. I know what I'm talking about.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Laraven View Post
    ^ my raid leader.
    I like your raid leader <.<
    Have no actual reply to the topic though.
    Everyone has so much to say
    They talk talk talk their lives away

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire Hooliganz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terridon View Post
    I like your raid leader <.<
    Have no actual reply to the topic though.
    who does :P

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by xMoore View Post
    I don't even play a hunter, but just looking at some of the top logs for BM hunters on a single target fight (I am using Iron Jugg for this) I looked up 3 sample hunters in the top 25 that are using Haromm's, not sure if its heroic or what, I don't rly care toooo much to go and check, but on average this trinket multistrike proc is doing 11.7 - 13k DPS (Effective DPS which is damage done / the time of the fight in seconds to see the actual effective DPS)

    So lets go out on a limb here and put the Heroic Warforged TED up against a minimum of a 12k (rounding down here for emphasis) which is 4.2% mastery (pet damage) DOUBLE upgraded (iLvL 580) so lets take for instance one of the hunters in this topics, top parse, Kisstehbaby. Their pet did 210373 effective DPS on this fight, take 4.2% of that and it is 8835 DPS, but oh you will reforge out of the mastery into haste or crit? lets take 40% of the mastery and turn it into crit which would give you 1008 crit rating which is about 1.7% crit, but leaves you at 1511 mastery which is which takes you back to 2.52% mastery (pet damage) which would put you back to +5302 DPS from just the mastery, and 1.7% overall since your pet gets 100% of your crit rating, so they puts you at 5302 DPS from the mastery buff, and 7405 (1.7% of Kittehbaby's total dps on Iron Jugg, which was 435607 EFFECTIVE) so we have 12.7k in a BEST CASE SCENARIO.

    I know this doesn't say OMG ITS BETTER LOOK I HAVE PROOFS, it is just a very very tiny sample that I took from the top logs for BM hunters and what it looks like at a first glance, I also AVERAGE EVERYTHING in the favor of TED so if anything TED is worse than in my example, and when you go to include things such as 4piece BM where your pet has 25% damage for your 2nd kill command and you get the full benefit of the proc from Haromms, and a total shit part of the proc from TED because it is about to fall off.
    Both trinkets are RPPM. TED is obviously better for the first KC and ArcShots, but then it falls behind Haromm's. I didn't look much into the buff procs to see which is better, but I assume they both have their pros and cons, honestly the constant is more of a benefit to me seeing as you only have a better proc for the first 5 secs and then it falls behind haromms for the rest, take into account reaction time, GCD, cooldown of abilities, etc I feel like the buff proc would fall behind the static proc from haromm's. So the only real arguing point I see here is the passive proc being why I took 20minutes into looking it up.

    I am very open to being told my math is completely wrong or I am just looking at this in a completely wrong way, but you guys do not support any math in your claims besides "omg haromms no proc on pet attacks wow it sux". Seeing as what was asked here was some validity or some proof of TED being better than HT.

    TLDR; From 10minutes of looking at logs of the top 1% BM parses, and 5minutes of math, it seems like in the BEST CASE SCENARIO, TED passive is equal to HT in the top 1% of logs of haromms multistrike proc.

    Also the Hunters I used for examples with HT procs:
    Гумелев - 3464239 damage over a 4:33 fight = 12,691 effective DPS
    Selindae - 3149110 damage over 4:32 fight = 12,001 effective DPS
    Dyveriate - 2910989 damage over a 4:08 fight = 11.738 effective DPS
    Haha are you for real?

  14. #14
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    The math is fairly simple:

    580 HT: 1.5k agility per second, 10s, .92 procs per minute. No benefit from the other passive on 60% of damage.
    580 TED: (27.5 + 24.75 + 22 + 19.25 + 16.5 + 13.75 + 11 + 8.25 + 5.5 + 2.75)/10 = 1.5k agility per second, 10s, 1 proc per minute, PLUS 2519 in secondary stats, which are all relatively equal for BM right now.

    So, basically, the agility procs weigh each other out, though that's a significant simplification of the TED proc.

    Now you're asking, will 2.5k secondary stats outweigh an HT multistrike operating at 40%. Let's look at some of the logs you want to point to as shining examples of HT outdoing TED in BM.

    Dyv's log shows 5 agi procs from HT over 250s (it was a damn short kill), and about 2.9m damage from multi-strike.
    Shoults (#1 BM log with TED) shows 8 procs over 273s, so already TED's RPPM chance is outweighing HT's. Now, his pet did 48.27m damage. Let's look at how much damage that loses if you simply have 2.5k less mastery (in the worst case scenario where you don't reforge any of the mastery away). About 560 mastery = 1% more pet damage, so let's say he does 2519/560 ~= 4.5% less pet damage. 48.27m/1.045 = 46.2m, a loss of 2m damage. However, the analysis doesn't stop there. A few talents, namely AMoC and DB, are affected by BM mastery, as is Stampede damage. His dire beast did 7.25m damage (7.25/1.045 = 6.94, a loss of 310k damage), his Stampede pets did 15.73m (15.73/1.045 = 15.05m, a loss of about 680k) Already this makes up for the loss from multi-strike. He didn't use AMoC but BS, another mastery buffed talent. AFAIK that doesn't change the calculations above.

    So at the end of the day, you have to compare comparable agility procs, where one agility proc procs more often than the other. Everything else pretty much cancels out, but a higher proc rate, in a vacuum, sims higher. OF course, random fights (especially ranking fights) will have good RNG on procs, so whatever, but simulation-wise, TED wins out over HT in BM. Simple as that. HT is a better trinket on fights where it can do more damage (IE, proc off more things), but in BM those opportunities are limited. As an example, in the top SV log (that isn't 30s long due to buggy reporting), multistrike does 4.87m damage, or more than 150% of what it does in BM), in a 235s fight (IE, 15s shorter than Dyv's kill).

    P.S. never do your calculations on DPS, that's wonky as hell. Do it on raw damage.

  15. #15
    A simple question not related directly to which is better... if OP isn't getting this trinket, what's happening when they drop? Are tey bigger upgrades for another AGI raider?

  16. #16
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    I know our monk and rogue both drool over it too, I imagine our feral would as well if he ever showed up to raids, considering the nature of his snapshot bleeds.

  17. #17
    On single target fights they are pretty equal, the last sims I made to compare them were 20(!) dps off from 376500 dps to 376520.
    Now to see which is better, you don't need any complex math, just use simple logic:
    The szenario where TED becomes better is in any aoe/cleave situation, which is basicly any fight but Juggernaut. While aoeing, your pet does even more % of your damage, making the multistrike proc significant weaker than the base mastery+ whatever you reforged it to on TED, which actually scales pretty good with aoe.
    They agi procs itself shouldn't be that far off, the higher ppm on TED compensate for the sometimes hard to maximize proc.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I know our monk and rogue both drool over it too, I imagine our feral would as well if he ever showed up to raids, considering the nature of his snapshot bleeds.
    Yeah, I can see most agi users wanting it. I guess I'm curious because when I used to lead raids I wanted loot to go to the people who benefit most from it. For OP this is a very minor upgrade so if I were RL and master looting, I'd want the trinket to go to other AGI users for whom it would be a bigger upgrade since that brings more benefit to the raid. Obviously, I'd give it to OP before giving it to someone for offspec or DE.

  19. #19
    The Patient Laraven's Avatar
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    The first time it dropped I won and gave it to my raid leader, a Guardian Druid, because he was fresh 90 and has terribad trinkets. Second time, a baddie rogue won it, and has since left guild, 3rd time a random feral druid (non-core) won it. And then last night another trial feral druid won it. I am the only core Hunter in our 25m. (also an Officer.)

    We have issues with loot leaving the guild, or going to members who don't raid. We are a fairly new guild, and still working on loot rules and such.
    I don't mind passing gear to better the raid as a whole. But I think it's my turn now. And I am still being told "It's NOT good for BM, HT is better!"

    I bonus roll this trinket every week and nadda. Sighhh.
    Last edited by Laraven; 2014-01-27 at 07:18 PM.

  20. #20
    Yea they will be close on single target. As someone above pointed out, the reason you go heavy mastery is for the cleave bonus. I sit at 53.5% mastery and can burst out nearly 2 million dps on openings on Garrosh, protectors, shamans, and over 2 million on nazgrim. This is because of my TED. With H harroms, I get around 1.3. Now, obviously this is personal testing, small sample size, and therefore not legitimately accurate. But at the same time, it is real world testing. I have yet to get above 1.5 with my H Haromms, and I do often use it because my guild runs 4 hutners right now and we love testing certain things for fun. Also, gold. But back on trac. I get a HUGE boon to my beast cleave and that is something a single target fight wont show. Aside from IJ and paragons, you are going to be cleaving down (depending on strats of course, everyone is different) most of the time in SoO.

    Also, dont give TED to a feral. If you REALLY love them, you would go get them a H RoR and AoC. They would love you for it.

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