San'layn: your opinion.

[shoc]

We had quite a lengthy discussion in the Warlords of Draenor forum in the Sub-race thread about the possibility of a San'layn/Darkfallen Sub-race for the Blood Elves. Now, I am not exactly an RP'er myself but the notion of sub-races seems to have become extremely popular with the RP community so I was wondering what you guys think about the San'layn. From what I understand, they are notorious for being tacky RP cliches, so much so that they earned the nickname "San'lame". Now, lameness and cliches aside, are San'layn for the Blood Elves a possibility?

Also, any other suggestions or comments regarding sub-races and their RP implications would be much appreciated.

Here is a list of the other sub-races that have been considered and deemed somewhat not too lore breaking.

Human: Half-Elf, Azotha (Vrykul-born)
Dwarf: Wildhammer, Dark Iron
Night Elf: Demon Hunter (Green Eyes, Tattoos), Highborne (Radiant skin and hair, golden eyes)
Gnome: MechaGnomes, Sand Gnomes (Jawas!)
Draenei: Naaru Blessed (Light Themed, Perm. Naaru Sigil above forehead), Auchenai (Void Themed features)
Worgen: Wolfcult (Former Grizzly Hills Humans turned by Arugal, Arctic Wolf features), Emerald Worgen (Emerald Dream features)

Orc: Mag'har, Blackrock
Undead: Forsaken High-Elves (a la Sylvanas), Skeletons (who says you need to have flesh and skin?)
Tauren: Grimtotem (Black fur, Warpaint), Taunka (White Skin, Flat Faces, Stout Horns)
Troll: Ice/Sand/Forest Trolls (All leaderless since ToT, Vol'jin's Horde adopts stragglers)
Blood Elf: Darkfallen (Undead Skin), Half-Elf (Shorter Ears, Normal Eyes)
Goblin: Gilgoblin (Aquatic Features, created accidentally by Hobart Grapplehammer, Kaja Addict (Glowing Green Eyes and Veins)

[Kanchi]

About the Drenei race, I guess the Broken are a good option too.

As for the San'layn, I'm not quite sure they'd work. Firstly, because of their appearance... way too lame, yes lol.

And secondly, because of the lore: IMHO it's kinda too hard yet to justify their presence in the horde or the blood elf society also.

[Caerule]

Have to agree with Kanchi. There weren't many San'layn in the first place. They're a group of elves that went with Kael'thas to stop Arthas reaching the Lich King. They were killed. Those were the only ones raised, and they were ended pretty effectively in Icecrown. If any are left, they'd be very few in number. And if these parasites of the Scourge would be accepted anywhere, it would be with the Forsaken, not Blood Elves.

I suppose the case could be made to have San'layn be available as one of the Blood Elf DK skins. A San'layn as part of the Ebon Knights may be accepted, as they'd have a faction to make sure they don't get out of line. I don't see them working otherwise though. Even Fel Elves and Wretched would be more likely.

[ChaosWolf]

Lorewise, there were only 12 San'layn, and they were all exterminated through the course of the early parts of the "Scourge War" Northrend campaign.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Lorewise, there were only 12 San'layn, and they were all exterminated through the course of the early parts of the "Scourge War" Northrend campaign.

Not sure where you're getting that, the San'layn have a lot more people in the faction than 12. All of the darkfallen are vampiric blood elves. The major named ones are simply the leaders of the San'layn, there are more than likely more of them out there.

To clarify, "darkfallen" is the racial term (that being of vampiric blood elves), "San'layn" is the faction. Granted, there are a limited number, since there isn't an infinite amount of blood elves, especially those that went to Northrend with Kael'thas and Illidan. But there's a possibility for them maybe being playable, if sub-races are ever introduced, especially since there were a lot more than just 12.

I could see some of them being taken in by the Forsaken or maybe (very small maybe) the Sin'dorei.

[ChaosWolf]

Not sure where you're getting that, the San'layn have a lot more people in the faction than 12. All of the darkfallen are vampiric blood elves. The major named ones are simply the leaders of the San'layn, there are more than likely more of them out there.

To clarify, "darkfallen" is the racial term (that being of vampiric blood elves), "San'layn" is the faction. Granted, there are a limited number, since there isn't an infinite amount of blood elves, especially those that went to Northrend with Kael'thas and Illidan. But there's a possibility for them maybe being playable, if sub-races are ever introduced, especially since there were a lot more than just 12.

I could see some of them being taken in by the Forsaken or maybe (very small maybe) the Sin'dorei.

Check the wiki.

Status Defunct (all Darkfallen deceased)

[Realsykes]

Nope nope nope.

They're a sect of vampiric, lawful evil undead blood elves devoted to the lich king and the scourge. They live off of the flesh and souls of their victims.

Some of you have watched Underworld too many times, get over your vampire fetish, this can't happen in any shape or form, you cannot redeem evil lords of a faction of pure evil.

[Mormolyce]

No worse than Darkfallen, Half-Elves and Mechagnomes IMO.

I thought the San'layn were a bit of a stretch but I don't think they're terrible or anything.

[The Madgod]

Check the wiki.

Status Defunct (all Darkfallen deceased)

The wiki denotes notable darkfallen as being deceased, not the darkfallen as a race.

The San'layn are defunct because their leadership was killed off and the Scourge is no longer as much of an organization as they used to be.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Check the wiki.

Status Defunct (all Darkfallen deceased)

Was going to respond, but Madgod beat me to it.

Nope nope nope.

They're a sect of vampiric, lawful evil undead blood elves devoted to the lich king and the scourge. They live off of the flesh and souls of their victims.

Some of you have watched Underworld too many times, get over your vampire fetish, this can't happen in any shape or form, you cannot redeem evil lords of a faction of pure evil.

Not saying I like the thought of a "good" darkfallen, but there are exceptions to every rule. Power-hungry elves are generally self-serving as a rule. A few could possibly have allied with the like of the Forsaken in return for power or, well, not being killed.

[Realsykes]

Was going to respond, but Madgod beat me to it.



Not saying I like the thought of a "good" darkfallen, but there are exceptions to every rule. Power-hungry elves are generally self-serving as a rule. A few could possibly have allied with the like of the Forsaken in return for power or, well, not being killed.

There's your key word, few.

Not hundreds and hundreds of them defecting from the Scourge. It's not like the Blood Elf situation, some were lost and confused and had other ideas, yet still inherently good/neutral. The Dark fallen are pure evil, lawful evil characters. It'd be a huge deal if even ONE defected. It's like asking the Lich King to have a change of heart and fight for the horde/alliance. It's ridiculous, mary sue, and wouldn't be taken seriously at all.

[Sett]

I like San'layn. It's one of the more challenging things to RP well for either faction.

[Falu]

Firstly, the San'layn ARE NOT a possibility for the Blood-Elves... if at all, they're a possibillity for the Forsaken.
Like the Val'kyrs and Risen Drakkari, the San'layn are Undead, they were risen from the most powerful of Kael'thas' servants by the Lich King, therefore they are his servants.
Upon the Lich King's defeat, it could make sense for them to pledge their allegiance to Sylvanas, as the Val'kyrs did... but imo, taking their Blood-Elvish treacherous nature, and pride, I can see them splitting off into a faction of their own, with their own more "neutral" and selfish agendas, perhaps we shall encounter them as an NPC faction in a future expansion.
Regardless of this, some individuals would probably join Sylvanas, but not with the Blood-Elves... 1st, they would be percieved as abominations by their living counterparts, secondly, they served Kael'thas... even if weren't for their Undeath, they would still not be welcomed as the previous high ranking buddies of ol' uncle kael... taking into consideration their high status within his ranks, they probably had a major part in the downfall of the Blood-Elves.
After the experiences they've gone through - being enslaved by the LK, and then supposedly, freed from his grasp by the players and Tirion, they have alot more to identify with in Sylvanas - former Blood-Elves, risen in undeath to serve a terrible master... they have alot in common with her... and I know I've stated this a couple of times... but the Forsaken is the only viable place for them, if at all, within our factions.

[The Madgod]

There's your key word, few.

Not hundreds and hundreds of them defecting from the Scourge. It's not like the Blood Elf situation, some were lost and confused and had other ideas, yet still inherently good/neutral. The Dark fallen are pure evil, lawful evil characters. It'd be a huge deal if even ONE defected. It's like asking the Lich King to have a change of heart and fight for the horde/alliance. It's ridiculous, mary sue, and wouldn't be taken seriously at all.

I'd disagree. The darkfallen aren't really normal undead. They were lawful evil before, but they're likely conniving and self-serving now that the Lich King is no longer in play.

If a darkfallen had defected during Wrath I'd be in agreement with you but with the Scourge being a failing construct and with the val'kyr having jumped ship, I don't find it entirely implausible that other undead such as the darkfallen could defect. ESPECIALLY considering we've got undead Drakkari trolls working in synch with the Zandalari. They were just grunts. Perhaps you overestimate just how powerful the Scourge is at maintaining control over all of the undead.

[ChaosWolf]

The wiki denotes notable darkfallen as being deceased, not the darkfallen as a race.

The San'layn are defunct because their leadership was killed off and the Scourge is no longer as much of an organization as they used to be.

No, the wiki says "all deceased", not "leaders deceased". That means the race as a whole, not just the ones in charge.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

No, the wiki says "all deceased", not "leaders deceased". That means the race as a whole, not just the ones in charge.

http://wowpedia.org/San%27layn

If you're referring to the "status," it says "Defunct," as in, "no longer operating." That means the faction of San'layn are no longer together and operating (they're effectively disbanded), it doesn't mean the race of Darkfallen are all dead.

San'layn is the faction, Darkfallen is the race. You're getting them confused.

(http://wowpedia.org/Darkfallen : This is the racial page. Note how it states nowhere that the race is extinct.)

[Kelthos]

I would say no simply because even from a lore standpoint the San'layn were an exclusive group.... just too special snowflake to be a sub-race. Not to mention they are dead... for Death Knights maybe, nothing else.

I think for the notion of sub-races to really work people need to get it into their skulls that not every race will have one.

[Rhlor]

dark fallen are evil and cannibals, blood elves never would allow them to return to quelthalas, also the sunwell is a source of holy magic that damages undead

[Braven]

Human: Half-Elf, Azotha (Vrykul-born)
Dwarf: Wildhammer, Dark Iron
Night Elf: Demon Hunter (Green Eyes, Tattoos), Highborne (Radiant skin and hair, golden eyes)
Gnome: MechaGnomes, Sand Gnomes (Jawas!)
Draenei: Naaru Blessed (Light Themed, Perm. Naaru Sigil above forehead), Auchenai (Void Themed features)
Worgen: Wolfcult (Former Grizzly Hills Humans turned by Arugal, Arctic Wolf features), Emerald Worgen (Emerald Dream features)

Orc: Mag'har, Blackrock
Undead: Forsaken High-Elves (a la Sylvanas), Skeletons (who says you need to have flesh and skin?)
Tauren: Grimtotem (Black fur, Warpaint), Taunka (White Skin, Flat Faces, Stout Horns)
Troll: Ice/Sand/Forest Trolls (All leaderless since ToT, Vol'jin's Horde adopts stragglers)
Blood Elf: Darkfallen (Undead Skin), Half-Elf (Shorter Ears, Normal Eyes)
Goblin: Gilgoblin (Aquatic Features, created accidentally by Hobart Grapplehammer, Kaja Addict (Glowing Green Eyes and Veins)

In reference to your list of subraces (which was very well done in terms of many, many links), in my opinion some of them don't make sense to me:
Human: Azotha: Aren't Azotha larger than normal humans? That would create some problems both ingame and in role-playing.
Undead: Forsaken Elf: I believe, and I could be wrong, that Sylvanas is the only Forsaken Elf.
Tauren: Grimetotem: Aren't all Grimetotem Tauren at war with Thunder Bluff and the Horde?
Blood Elf: Darkfallen: Well they're basically vampires right? That may create some broken RP elements (needing to... feed). Also, last time I heard they were all in service of the Scourge and Lich King, not Sylvanas.

[The Madgod]

In reference to your list of subraces (which was very well done in terms of many, many links), in my opinion some of them don't make sense to me:
Human: Azotha: Aren't Azotha larger than normal humans? That would create some problems both ingame and in role-playing.
Undead: Forsaken Elf: I believe, and I could be wrong, that Sylvanas is the only Forsaken Elf.
Tauren: Grimetotem: Aren't all Grimetotem Tauren at war with Thunder Bluff and the Horde?
Blood Elf: Darkfallen: Well they're basically vampires right? That may create some broken RP elements (needing to... feed). Also, last time I heard they were all in service of the Scourge and Lich King, not Sylvanas.

Azotha are also non-canon! For RP, it wouldn't cause too much problem (because there's already a suspension of disbelief needed for that) but yeah, it does kinda screw over a physical representation of them as an in-game subrace.

All banshees and basically all the dark rangers we've seen are undead elves.

for the Grimtotem and even the darkfallen to a lesser extent, it's not really necessarily accurate that ALL of them would have the same agenda as those of their race. The Darkfallen would more likely join the Forsaken though... and I wouldn't know the likelihood that there would be a notable number of these groups who would defect.