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  1. #1
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Question Celestalon and the ability cull.

    Celestalon recently tweeted his followers asking what abilities existing players could or couldn't stand to lose in an ability clean up. I'm comfortable stating that I support this policy because I believe ability bloat got out of hand in WotLK, with neither Cataclysm nor MoP attending the issue. This post is designed to discuss what abilities warriors could lose but it's worth noting that I'm actually pretty radical in this regard - I want to see a HUGE cull.

    Disclaimer: Please don't argue about balance. We have to assume that if warriors were to lose a lot of abilities, other classes would too and the game would be balanced accordingly. Seriously; don't cry that we "need" a certain ability to counter another class.

    It's just not relevant.

    From the top, then.

    Baseline Abilities:

    Throw: Fix Heroic Throw to have a 15 second cooldown, and this can go.

    Heroic Strike/Cleave: Currently propped up by a proc for tanks and generally not used at all for Arms. This could go.

    Sunder Armor: Tanks have Devastate, DPS toons don't need it. It should go.

    Deep Wounds: Warriors aren't really a bleed class, so this could go.

    Hamstring: I'm a fan of Piercing Howl as baseline and Hamstring has been a balancing nuisance (GCD/off GCD). It should go.

    Battle Shout/Commanding Shout: Merge these two together and get rid of the other.

    Blood and Thunder: Without Deep Wounds, we don't need Blood and Thunder. It could go.

    Berserker Rage: With less CC in the game and the damage easily tunable elsewhere, this could go.

    Demoralizing Shout: Roll out Die by the Sword for all three specs. This should go.

    Ultimatum: Proc used to stop the redundancy of Heroic Strike. It should go.

    Bastion of Defence: This could be weaved into Unwavering Sentinel or vice versa. This should go.

    Recklessness: Merge the effect with Avatar and make Avatar the warrior baseline cooldown; Recklessness can then go.

    Shattering Throw: Unnecessary damage debuff in PvE, awkward in PvP. It should go.

    Riposte: Won't be required in WoD anymore. It will go.

    Mocking Banner: To me, it's stupid. Impossible to quickly explain why. It should go.

    Demoralizing Banner: We have raid defensive utility with Rallying Cry. This should go.

    Talents:

    Talents are unlikely to be touched because then they'd need replaced but, honestly, this is what I'd do with them.

    Juggernaut: Make this baseline and put another talent in its place.

    ER/SW/IV: This tier is so abnormally weak, we could have all three and not be overpowered. Pick one of them, buff it, make it baseline, and remove the other two for something better.

    SS/PH/DS: Piercing Howl at baseline has been asked for years, while Staggering Shout is crap and we don't need a second interrupt. Replace this entire tier.

    BS/SWa/DR: Give Bladestorm to Arms, Shockwave to tanks and Dragon Roar to Fury. Replace this entire tier.

    Mass Spell Reflect: We already have one reflect, we don't need another. This should go.

    And that's it for my list at this time.

    Now, clearly, removal of all these would make warriors weaker - obviously. But that's the idea, just as it'd have to be the idea for all classes in an ability squash of any kind. The game has been plagued these last few years by nobody accepting that their class is weak at something, but that's a fundamental part of what playing a game is about - maximising your strengths and minimizing your weaknesses.

    Philosophically, ask yourself what a warrior needs and what he could stand to lose assuming his weakness didn't become a terrible liability and was balanced with the other classes in mind. With a lot less abilities flying around, perhaps we could see a bit of class identity return.

    What do you think?

  2. #2
    The Patient
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    Just a couple points for now. You seem to be looking at this from a Prot warrior perspective. There's stuff you're not considering if you look at it from the perspective of Fury.

    - Sunder Armor - This is about the Weakened Armor debuff. Currently, Weakened Armor is provided by Sunder Armor/Devastate, Expose Armor (rogue), Faerie Fire (druid), or a hunter pet. Taking away the ability of Fury and Arms warriors providing this debuff is a problem. I'm not saying this from a "no one will bring dps warriors without this utility" perspective but enough classes/specs have to provide this in order to keep raid comp for smaller flex sizes from being a nightmare. If they do away with Weakened Armor altogether, that's fine. But as long as it's there it makes sense for warriors to keep it.

    - Heroic Strike - The off GCD nature of the skill is fundamental to Fury's play style of pooling rage and squeezing as much damage as possible into the Colossus Smash debuff window. I'm not in love with this off GCD skill, but taking it out alters greatly the MoP Fury play style which some people love.

  3. #3
    To a degree I still think it's too early to discuss what abilities should be removed as we do not have any idea where Blizz plan on taking the class or the individual specs. That said there are some things I do agree with and others I dont.

    And if I haven't commented on it, just take it as I somewhat agree.

    Cleave can get removed, but I don't think I want HS removed. What will we use to dump rage with instead? Wildstrike..? Pretty meh either way.

    Berserker rage can go depending on fury being as dependent on RB in WoD as they are now (if BR will proc RB at all in WoD).

    Shattering throw is an awkward mechanic, but it has it's uses in both pve and pvp and therefor holds some value unlike heroic throw in it's current form or throw.

    Mocking Banner is godlike on Malkorok, I quite like it. Other than that it doesn't have a lot of uses, I guess. Never tanked in hc content so no clue how it works there.

    Demo Banner is just added utility. I've used it several times on every fight during progress. Don't see why we can't have both RC and demo banner.

    Regarding tier 2 talents I do believe we would be somewhat op if we had all 3. But they are individually not up to par with what other classes have for survivability so they would have to be replaced or buffed, though people (other classes) would QQ about warriors being too op again.

    I'm quite actively using Disrupting Shout on Protectors hc as a back up in case some derp dies and couldn't interrupt Embodied Gloom. Use it a lot on Paragons hc aswell to reduce some of the feed damage from parasites.

    Personally I think tier 5 is the most interesting of the tiers and I really don't hope they make each ability baseline like that.

    But as you said, some of these abilities we could stand to lose, I just dont think these are the ones that should go unlike a lot of the others you mentioned.

  4. #4
    I think you never have done pvp as a warrior...

  5. #5
    Why remove Deep Wounds? It's completely passive and doesn't take up a slot on your bars? The ability cull is more for removing buttons from your bars rather than removing things to read from your spellbook.

  6. #6
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    I think it is good to reduce many abilities, make some others baseline and weave other into each other. I cannot recall when bloating happened but I´d really love to see a smaller toolbox for all classes.
    I agree with most of your ideas. I will simply use your list and add what I think.

    Baseline Abilities:

    Throw: Fix Heroic Throw to have a 15 second cooldown and add the effect of Glyph of Impaling Throws, and this can go.

    Heroic Strike/Cleave: Disagree. It serves a good purpose for two speccs and needs tuning for arms. You wouldnt have to pool half the rage for CS for Fury if you didn´t have to weave in at least 3 Heroic Strikes. Serves as a rage dump outside of CS. Either it stays or Wild Strikes is heavily redesigned. Cleave could go.

    Sunder Armor: Could go for Fury and Arms. Should stay as a filler for Prot. Glyph of Colossus Smash should be baked into CS.

    Deep Wounds: Disagree. I always felt like warriors are a bleed class. Enahnders aren´t a bleed class. Retris aren´t a bleed class. People with huge two handed axes smashing your face ARE a bleed class.

    Hamstring: Agree.

    Battle Shout/Commanding Shout: Agree! zomfg

    Blood and Thunder: Disagree, see above.

    Berserker Rage: Somehwat agree. Not sure. Perhaps make Enraged Regeneration always heal for doubled amount.

    Demoralizing Shout: Agree very much. I hate, that you need to actually debuff something to use this ability. Same goes for Banner.

    Ultimatum: Disagree. Adds scaling to Prot (more crit, more critical shield slams, more ultimatum) and is the only thing that keeps me from saying prot rotation is dull.

    Bastion of Defence: Agree.

    Recklessness: Agree, thou kinda overpowered.

    Shattering Throw: Disagree. Should stay and be a 3 minute cooldown. Can´t tell how often it made me imagine the smile of some random paladin being wiped out of his face in PvP. Useful additional cooldown to skullbanner for the raid because unique.

    Riposte: You are probably right, but I liked it. I realy hope crit stay our go-to stat.

    Mocking Banner: Disagree. banners should stay, especially this one. I agree, that the idea of a taunting banner is kinda stupid, but from a utility pov this one is one of my favorites.

    Demoralizing Banner: Disagree. Should be a moralizing banner.

    Talents:

    Talents are unlikely to be touched because then they'd need replaced but, honestly, this is what I'd do with them.

    Juggernaut: I´m fine with this tier.

    ER/SW/IV: I entirely Disagree. This Tier is abnormally strong. There is a reason for many PvP players cry about the OPness of Second Wind.

    SS/PH/DS: Agree with Piercing Howl baseline, agree with Staggering Shout. Staggering Shout should be replaced with Throwdown, if you remember that talent. Somewhat disgaree with Interrupting Shout. A interrupt on distance + AoE is epic and usually my go-to choice as a tank.

    BS/SWa/DR: Disagree. Can´t tell why.

    Mass Spell Reflect: Kinda agree. Could be a talent that influences Spellreflect thou.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Diograo View Post
    I think you never have done pvp as a warrior...
    This was all I could think the entire time.

  8. #8
    Heroic Strike is a corner stone in Fury's DPS and it provides a good way to maximize your damage skillfully. It definitely needs to stay. Though I agree that Cleave needs to either be buffed or gone.

    I also want Deep Wounds to stay. I don't know what you mean that we aren't a bleed class, we've had them has far back as I can remember. Being able to apply Deep Wounds to multiple targets provides an additional way to maximize your damage, and increases the skill cap a bit.

    Demo and Mocking Banner should both stay. Mocking Banner is used by prot warriors as snap AOE taunt, so it's effective. There are even rare cases where a DPS Warrior will use it. I think Demo Banner should stay as well, though that depends entirely on what they want to do with raid CDs overall. If they are removing more from other classes, than it could go.

    I think you could consider the idea of taking away the Sunder Armor debuff entirely, and balance the classes around not having it.

    Berserker Rage is a staple of Fury, and pretty good for Arms as well. I'm very much against taking that away without knowing about how the class will play in WoD.
    <Midwinter>
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    Focusing your rage spending inside Colossus Smash windows, without wasting rage, is very much an intended gameplay element. Celestalon

  9. #9
    I don't think that reducing skills will make the game more interesting. Neither do I understand the whole ability bloat thing that GC started. Let's say you are a prot warrior. I'm fairly sure that you could do normal difficulty raiding succesfully (as in being an average guy in a normal raid roster) with 6 buttons (dev, sslam, taunt, revenge, sbar, tclap). All the other buttons will push you from a 60%? performance to the 100% needed for upper difficulties, but the point is that if you don't want to be armed with a plethora of semi-redundant and very specific skills, you can do adequate content ignoring their existance.

    I had rather have them rework skills that are not interesting into interesting ones, instead of simply cutting them off. More skills, more interesting gameplay, deeper flavor. Having charge, intervene, intercept and heroic leap reinforced more the class identity than having charge and that's it.
    Last edited by Espada; 2014-01-28 at 06:47 PM.

  10. #10
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Aeluron's Voice on Warriors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Celestalon recently tweeted his followers asking what abilities existing players could or couldn't stand to lose in an ability clean up. I'm comfortable stating that I support this policy because I believe ability bloat got out of hand in WotLK, with neither Cataclysm nor MoP attending the issue. This post is designed to discuss what abilities warriors could lose but it's worth noting that I'm actually pretty radical in this regard - I want to see a HUGE cull.

    Disclaimer: Please don't argue about balance. We have to assume that if warriors were to lose a lot of abilities, other classes would too and the game would be balanced accordingly. Seriously; don't cry that we "need" a certain ability to counter another class.

    It's just not relevant.

    From the top, then.

    Baseline Abilities:

    Throw: Fix Heroic Throw to have a 15 second cooldown, and this can go.

    Heroic Strike/Cleave: Currently propped up by a proc for tanks and generally not used at all for Arms. This could go.

    Sunder Armor: Tanks have Devastate, DPS toons don't need it. It should go.

    Deep Wounds: Warriors aren't really a bleed class, so this could go.

    Hamstring: I'm a fan of Piercing Howl as baseline and Hamstring has been a balancing nuisance (GCD/off GCD). It should go.

    Battle Shout/Commanding Shout: Merge these two together and get rid of the other.

    Blood and Thunder: Without Deep Wounds, we don't need Blood and Thunder. It could go.

    Berserker Rage: With less CC in the game and the damage easily tunable elsewhere, this could go.

    Demoralizing Shout: Roll out Die by the Sword for all three specs. This should go.

    Ultimatum: Proc used to stop the redundancy of Heroic Strike. It should go.

    Bastion of Defence: This could be weaved into Unwavering Sentinel or vice versa. This should go.

    Recklessness: Merge the effect with Avatar and make Avatar the warrior baseline cooldown; Recklessness can then go.

    Shattering Throw: Unnecessary damage debuff in PvE, awkward in PvP. It should go.

    Riposte: Won't be required in WoD anymore. It will go.

    Mocking Banner: To me, it's stupid. Impossible to quickly explain why. It should go.

    Demoralizing Banner: We have raid defensive utility with Rallying Cry. This should go.

    Talents:

    Talents are unlikely to be touched because then they'd need replaced but, honestly, this is what I'd do with them.

    Juggernaut: Make this baseline and put another talent in its place.

    ER/SW/IV: This tier is so abnormally weak, we could have all three and not be overpowered. Pick one of them, buff it, make it baseline, and remove the other two for something better.

    SS/PH/DS: Piercing Howl at baseline has been asked for years, while Staggering Shout is crap and we don't need a second interrupt. Replace this entire tier.

    BS/SWa/DR: Give Bladestorm to Arms, Shockwave to tanks and Dragon Roar to Fury. Replace this entire tier.

    Mass Spell Reflect: We already have one reflect, we don't need another. This should go.

    And that's it for my list at this time.

    Now, clearly, removal of all these would make warriors weaker - obviously. But that's the idea, just as it'd have to be the idea for all classes in an ability squash of any kind. The game has been plagued these last few years by nobody accepting that their class is weak at something, but that's a fundamental part of what playing a game is about - maximising your strengths and minimizing your weaknesses.

    Philosophically, ask yourself what a warrior needs and what he could stand to lose assuming his weakness didn't become a terrible liability and was balanced with the other classes in mind. With a lot less abilities flying around, perhaps we could see a bit of class identity return.

    What do you think?
    Throw: It's utterly useless other than reminding me of a rogue's throw ability or whatever it's called. I don't recall any use from this PVP or PVE or rather anything. This doesn't include Heroic Throw(Ty).

    Heroic Strike: The way Warriors are balanced/tuned HS has little use compared to Fury. It should stay IMO have it as a build up ability for Arms. Keep it the way it is for Fury. I can't speak for Prot but Heroic Strike should stay provided they go with my idea. If it doesn't go, destroy it for Arms.

    Cleave: Not used at all for Arms? Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh wat? It's used all the time(AOE). PVP it may be not even worth it but Cleave is definitely useful for arms albeit Arms should IMO be a Single Target DPS to then "LOL AOE EVERYWHAR!!!" So keep it. Same goes for Fury, Prot I don't know but I don't see removing it as a good idea at all. What should happen is Cleave be used for Aoe rotation only for Arms. That's it.

    Sunder Armor: Yes Tanks do have Devastate despite the fact it sounds so fucking awesome. I wouldn't mind sunder armor being removed but I think it'd be nice if Devastate(DPS version) was given to Arms and fury or just Arms. Devastate IMO sounds like something a two hander would use or fury instead of prot. Don't remove it for Prot obviously(The tanky version). So Sunder armor can go via my idea or replace it for Sundering Strike like Nazgrim for DPS as another attack. You figure out the rest.

    Deep Wounds: Warriors have ALWAYS hand a bleed ability. Fuck it's just a more shiny version(Sorry for the hyberbole) of Rend with it gone. Don't remove it. I'd like it if Arms had more bleeds to or the warrior class in general. Be pretty fucking awesome if you ask me. So NO REMOVAL. It's not an ability bloat or even taking class identity away. /smackyou

    Hamstring: Hmm....Piercing Howl as base line...... to replace this. Pretty enticing argument you got there sir! I honestly cannot say what is better so you have me at a draw CURSE YOU GNOME!

    Battle Shout/Commanding Shout: Merging them into something else would be nice but you have to consider all the classes buff system which is still there. With that said I can think of a name for the new one. HEROIC SHOUT(YEAH BOI!!!!!) Tentative answer for this one.

    Blood and Thunder: Keep this, the fact we want to remove this is silly. It should be removed due to it's an orcish name instead of being race neutral. Course the Lock talents aren't race neutral either ^_^ No keep it. It's a passive so it's not bloat.

    Berserker Rage: True less CC would make this pointless however, I need to say it might need to stay until the the CC reduction is final so...TENTATIVE.

    Demoralizing Shout: Hmm...give Die by the Sword to all specs eh? I am fond of demo shout back in my Cata days DAMN YOU MAKE A HARD DECISION! I don't know. WHY ME!

    Ultimatum: Seems silly of a name. Rename it. Keep it, not savvy on Prot but ultimatum seems a bit too evil sounding(DO THIS OR ELSE!) and it should be neutral sounding.

    Bastion of Defence: .....I can see your point but it's more passive bloat than *ability bloat*.

    Recklessness: Your suggestion for Avatar is nice. You'd have to replace the Avatar slot in the talents with something else. That and provided something else doesn't get nerfed -_- Less cooldowns for Warriors is good. Even though IMO Warriors shouldn't be so CD dependant to do decent damage.

    Shattering Throw: Unnecessary in PVE? I dunno, in top progression it may help. Awkward in PVP? UHHHHH NO I don't PVP as much as a warrior but Shattering Throw+Iceblock/Bubble= No more immune. Sorry.....denied!

    Riposte: Pretty much will be gone so no comment.

    Banners: I felt underwhelmed when I first got these. Honestly, I think they should go but not under your opinion. Something else should of been added IMO.

    Talents: Oh boy here we go.

    Juggernaut: Yes please, I agree. Charge CD should be two seconds lower IMO but I'm ok with this and like you said replace it with something else.

    T2: I'd make Second Wind Baseline and buff it but push it lower a bit for PVP(Make it baseline obviously). Replace it with something else to.

    T3: I like having a second interrupt. Neiner Neiner Neiner!

    T4: Hmm...BS for Arms Shockwave for Prot and Dragon Roar to Fury eh..... not sure about that. Tentative.....

    Mass Spell Reflect: All right but might need to add something to replace it for some raid utility.


    Summary: Class identity hasn't been lost even without these suggestions. You are still firmly a warrior. I still really don't get why people use that term like a piece of a candy wrapper. Saying it more often won't make it true.



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  11. #11
    Field Marshal rystrave's Avatar
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    I dunno about all of you, but I like the utility that warriors have and how the abilities work together. I agree with some, such as combining shouts together and HT having a shorter CD (though I wish they'd put threat back on it), but I feel like removing/combining a lot of talents and skills will just remove the feel of what a warrior is. A lot of it is situational. Maybe that's just me, and I'm saying those things from a mainly prot warrior perspective...
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  12. #12
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tirivaria View Post
    - Sunder Armor - This is about the Weakened Armor debuff. Currently, Weakened Armor is provided by Sunder Armor/Devastate, Expose Armor (rogue), Faerie Fire (druid), or a hunter pet. Taking away the ability of Fury and Arms warriors providing this debuff is a problem. I'm not saying this from a "no one will bring dps warriors without this utility" perspective but enough classes/specs have to provide this in order to keep raid comp for smaller flex sizes from being a nightmare. If they do away with Weakened Armor altogether, that's fine. But as long as it's there it makes sense for warriors to keep it.
    Fair comment. However, I see no reason why the glyph can't be baked into Colossus Smash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tirivaria View Post
    - Heroic Strike - The off GCD nature of the skill is fundamental to Fury's play style of pooling rage and squeezing as much damage as possible into the Colossus Smash debuff window. I'm not in love with this off GCD skill, but taking it out alters greatly the MoP Fury play style which some people love.
    As it turns out, I would rather they did more with Heroic Strike than simply remove it. It is, however, one of those things that works well for a single spec, but finds its way into all three. Even with the Ultimatum changes, its contribution to Protection is dreadful and it's a waste of rage as far as Arms is concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    Berserker rage can go depending on fury being as dependent on RB in WoD as they are now (if BR will proc RB at all in WoD).
    Personally, I'd like to see that fixed rather than propped up by more abilities. Legitimate concern, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    Shattering throw is an awkward mechanic, but it has it's uses in both pve and pvp and therefor holds some value unlike heroic throw in it's current form or throw.
    It went in as a direct "fix" because warriors were comparing terribly with paladins at the time. It's one of those things that just strikes me as a button you could remove with no real heartache caused. Yes, it's powerful; but encounters (and PvP) would be balanced around that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    Mocking Banner is godlike on Malkorok, I quite like it. Other than that it doesn't have a lot of uses, I guess. Never tanked in hc content so no clue how it works there.
    Personally, I think it's overpowered and doesn't require enough thought for what it does. The fact it doesn't work on bosses, and does nothing in PvP, means it's better to be chopped in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    Demo Banner is just added utility. I've used it several times on every fight during progress. Don't see why we can't have both RC and demo banner.
    Again personally, I just believe the number of raid cooldowns needs dragged back. One or the other would be fine, and Rallying Cry is simply more unique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    Regarding tier 2 talents I do believe we would be somewhat op if we had all 3. But they are individually not up to par with what other classes have for survivability so they would have to be replaced or buffed, though people (other classes) would QQ about warriors being too op again.
    That tier is awful. Every class in the game practically has better self-healing than we do at baseline. It's just an awful tier. If it were me, I'd be tempted to put Enraged Regeneration back in as baseline and ditch the others. Our talented self-healing in Cataclysm was actually better overall, and we were never overpowered then. I just don't think it's part of our package, and it really doesn't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    I'm quite actively using Disrupting Shout on Protectors hc as a back up in case some derp dies and couldn't interrupt Embodied Gloom. Use it a lot on Paragons hc aswell to reduce some of the feed damage from parasites.
    Again, I don't dispute its utility; merely the fact that it's gratuitous. I'd rather see every class have an interrupt baseline than one class have two or three plus stuns and a fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    Personally I think tier 5 is the most interesting of the tiers and I really don't hope they make each ability baseline like that.
    My biggest gripe with tier five is that it props up Protection AoE, and does it badly. Shockwave would be fine, but it's a liability with the stupid mob limit attached to it... And that's not likely to go away while it's a talent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diograo View Post
    I think you never have done pvp as a warrior...
    Actually, I have. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on why you think I haven't, other than "OMG U NERF WARZ".

    Quote Originally Posted by lunchbox2042 View Post
    Why remove Deep Wounds? It's completely passive and doesn't take up a slot on your bars? The ability cull is more for removing buttons from your bars rather than removing things to read from your spellbook.
    Erm, yeah. That's fair enough, actually. I suppose I don't like passive damage on a warrior, particularly one as powerful as Deep Wounds, but that's very much a personal thing. Then again, removing passives such as these could potentially make space for better ones.

    Okay, not going to say too much more at the moment as most people are remaking points (that are definitely valid), but I like where this is going right at the moment. With only two exceptions, everyone seems to want this debate to be meaningful and I think that's cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Summary: Class identity hasn't been lost even without these suggestions. You are still firmly a warrior. I still really don't get why people use that term like a piece of a candy wrapper. Saying it more often won't make it true.
    Oops, missed this one - it's a point worth commenting on.

    I'm not only talking about warriors here, though we're arguably the worst off. If the warrior class identity is the master of weapons and warfare, then our toes are well and truly stepped on by death knights and paladins. Hell, there's even crossover from the Combat rogue and we saw monks launch with fixed versions of Retaliation and Hamstring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    I had rather have them rework skills that are not interesting into interesting ones, instead of simply cutting them off. More skills, more interesting gameplay, deeper flavor. Having charge, intervene, intercept and heroic leap reinforced more the class identity than having charge and that's it.
    There's too much going on, particularly with CC, and warriors are a big contributor to the mix. With regard to things like Rallying Cry or Demoralizing Banner, if every class is running around with defensive raid cooldowns then encounters will be designed with that in mind; more nukes are put in for more cooldowns, rather than the reverse. It's neither adding nor taking away gameplay.

    My problem, in many ways, is the impact this has on new players and, indeed, encounter balancing. New players hitting the big ding are simply going to be swamped, and I don't think that's a particularly good introduction to the game. I'm a fan of WildStar's limited action set, because it future proofs the issue and allows players a better level of customization than what they now have in WoW. Taking all of our talents away and baking them in as baseline just removed the depth from the class, IMO.

    Deep Wounds is an example of a talent I may not necessarily take if it were a choice over something else, but the developers have simply assumed that I must always want it. In so many examples, they assumed wrong.

    I'm not arguing with your conclusions, they're logical and valid. I'm just trying to explain why I see things differently.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post

    Baseline Abilities:

    Throw: Fix Heroic Throw to have a 15 second cooldown, and this can go. - Okay, I'll take that.

    Heroic Strike/Cleave: Currently propped up by a proc for tanks and generally not used at all for Arms. This could go. - Make Heroic Strike hit 3 targets and remove cleave. Having the proc for tanks and the off-gcd damage dump for DPS is a good thing.

    Sunder Armor: Tanks have Devastate, DPS toons don't need it. It should go. - Bake it into CS without a glyph, then it can go.

    Deep Wounds: Warriors aren't really a bleed class, so this could go. - I disagree. It's good to have a ticking DoT for tank kiting.

    Hamstring: I'm a fan of Piercing Howl as baseline and Hamstring has been a balancing nuisance (GCD/off GCD). It should go. - If and only if Piercing Howl becomes baseline. I still like having it be a melee range attack though. Not sure how I feel.

    Battle Shout/Commanding Shout: Merge these two together and get rid of the other. - Agree.

    Blood and Thunder: Without Deep Wounds, we don't need Blood and Thunder. It could go. - See my comment on Deep Wounds. I'd keep it.

    Berserker Rage: With less CC in the game and the damage easily tunable elsewhere, this could go. - Bake it into Battle Shout - Adds 10% Stamina, x%AP, 30 rage, makes you immune to fear for 10 seconds, 1 minute CD.

    Demoralizing Shout: Roll out Die by the Sword for all three specs. This should go. - This is actually fantastic.

    Ultimatum: Proc used to stop the redundancy of Heroic Strike. It should go. - Keep it per my comments about HS above.

    Bastion of Defence: This could be weaved into Unwavering Sentinel or vice versa. This should go. - Agreed. Combine them. Both have good names.

    Recklessness: Merge the effect with Avatar and make Avatar the warrior baseline cooldown; Recklessness can then go. - Only if we can keep the DPS banner as well.

    Shattering Throw: Unnecessary damage debuff in PvE, awkward in PvP. It should go. - Not unnecessary, just remove the stupid cast time.

    Riposte: Won't be required in WoD anymore. It will go. - No comment.

    Mocking Banner: To me, it's stupid. Impossible to quickly explain why. It should go. - I like the concept, let's improve it since we no longer have our shout.

    Demoralizing Banner: We have raid defensive utility with Rallying Cry. This should go. - Why can't we have both? If nothing else, combine them.

    Talents:

    Talents are unlikely to be touched because then they'd need replaced but, honestly, this is what I'd do with them.

    Juggernaut: Make this baseline and put another talent in its place. - Yes.

    ER/SW/IV: This tier is so abnormally weak, we could have all three and not be overpowered. Pick one of them, buff it, make it baseline, and remove the other two for something better. - Yes. Give us baseline SW, Make IV a 1 minute cooldown refreshed by killing blows, buff ER and make it baseline.

    SS/PH/DS: Piercing Howl at baseline has been asked for years, while Staggering Shout is crap and we don't need a second interrupt. Replace this entire tier. - How in the 7 hells is Staggering Shout crap? Not only is it retardedly good to have a backup interrupt on one target, but for positioning casters it's a fucking godsend. Make it also silence.

    BS/SWa/DR: Give Bladestorm to Arms, Shockwave to tanks and Dragon Roar to Fury. Replace this entire tier. - Also un-nerf the stupid shockwave CD bullshit, give it 50% crit chance, unchanged by gear.

    Mass Spell Reflect: We already have one reflect, we don't need another. This should go. - I haven't decided.
    They also need to take a hard look at what abilities are obtained at which level. Leveling a prot warrior in dungeons sucks balls until you get thunderclap, revenge and SS.
    Last edited by idefiler6; 2014-01-28 at 08:19 PM.

  14. #14
    Regarding Demo Shout vs Die by the Sword: DbtS is up for less time (8/120) while Demo Shout is up for more (10/60). The fact that it's half the cooldown and 25% longer than DbtS (even if you glyph it) makes up for it not having the parry increase, which is generally worthless for tanks at this point.



  15. #15
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    They also need to take a hard look at what abilities are obtained at which level. Leveling a prot warrior in dungeons sucks balls until you get thunderclap, revenge and SS.
    Different topic (though related), but I completely agree. I levelled a bear in Cataclysm and the problem was also very similar there, IIRC.

    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    Regarding Demo Shout vs Die by the Sword: DbtS is up for less time (8/120) while Demo Shout is up for more (10/60). The fact that it's half the cooldown and 25% longer than DbtS (even if you glyph it) makes up for it not having the parry increase, which is generally worthless for tanks at this point.
    I'd have no problem with Demoralizing Shout being the main cooldown and DbtS cut; I just think one for each spec is a bit... Pointless.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    They also need to take a hard look at what abilities are obtained at which level. Leveling a prot warrior in dungeons sucks balls until you get thunderclap, revenge and SS.
    At least they recently said they are looking at that and will want feedback on that during beta.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post


    I'd have no problem with Demoralizing Shout being the main cooldown and DbtS cut; I just think one for each spec is a bit... Pointless.
    Honestly, I like the additional 100% Parry added to it. Call me greedy.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post

    There's too much going on, particularly with CC, and warriors are a big contributor to the mix. With regard to things like Rallying Cry or Demoralizing Banner, if every class is running around with defensive raid cooldowns then encounters will be designed with that in mind; more nukes are put in for more cooldowns, rather than the reverse. It's neither adding nor taking away gameplay.

    My problem, in many ways, is the impact this has on new players and, indeed, encounter balancing. New players hitting the big ding are simply going to be swamped, and I don't think that's a particularly good introduction to the game. I'm a fan of WildStar's limited action set, because it future proofs the issue and allows players a better level of customization than what they now have in WoW. Taking all of our talents away and baking them in as baseline just removed the depth from the class, IMO.

    Deep Wounds is an example of a talent I may not necessarily take if it were a choice over something else, but the developers have simply assumed that I must always want it. In so many examples, they assumed wrong.

    I'm not arguing with your conclusions, they're logical and valid. I'm just trying to explain why I see things differently.
    I will give a Wildstar a try when it's released, but on the meanwhile I have been playing a bit of FFXIV, a white mage. And the limited set of skills the class has leaves me a bit cold. I may play one month more, but when I stop playing, I will forget about the class. It is a vanilla healer, the one you find in every MMO. Maybe with a different design the class would be more memorable, but I feel that having only a few skills to work with limits the design a lot. Most devs like to cover the basics (single heal, aoe heal, hot, shield, basic CDs, etc) and then expand upon it adding additional skills. When they have a limited number of skills to work with, they end up adding very few or none original skills, and it's hard to remember a class like that with fondness.

    Maybe Wildstar will change my mind. Maybe it will another MMO. In the meantime, I feel like a class need to have a healthy number of skills to feel good, and the wow warrior seems to be in a good number right now, to me at least.

  19. #19
    Goin' thru my spellbook:

    Cleave: Remove it or buff it, as I haven't used it all expansion. The only case where it is worthwhile using over heroic strike is on 2 targets, any more targets and you're better off spamming whirlwind/slam while delaying mortal strike/bloodthirst. Even on 2 targets, it's only barely better than just using heroic strike.

    Heroic Throw/Throw: Remove one of these, don't care which one.

    Sunder Armor: Merge into colossus smash, remove.

    Flurry: Remove

    Talents:
    Mass Spell Reflect: Remove it, already have 1 spell reflect. Could replace with a talent that reduces the cooldown of spell reflect.

    Avatar: Extremely boring talent, and also suboptimal in most cases.

    Masochism (sp?): It needs to either have a cooldown or be on the GCD, otherwise we're going to feel forced to spam it in order to be competitive and make healers hate us. I'd like to see it as an ability to fill open globals with, taking the place of crappy abilities like heroic throw.

    Blade Barrier: I just don't see anyone taking this over ravager. Burst AoE is too powerful.

    Other notes:
    Warrior control will need to be toned down slightly in pvp, I'm not an expert there so I don't want to make any suggestions.

    Arms needs a total single target revamp.

    Prot/Fury feel pretty good ATM.

    Fury/Arms AoE may need slight nerfs, Arms dominates on any type of extended-duration AoE and Fury dominates on burst-AoE, compared to other specs/classes not named warlock. IMO, Fury suffers from the same issue that Disc does with healing, our AoE simply cuts in front of other specs AoE, which makes us look really good due to targets dying so quickly, just like disc absorbs cut in front of other healers.


    :edit:
    OH OH OH OH!

    CHANGE THE SOUND OF WILD STRIKE
    Last edited by CollisionTD; 2014-01-28 at 10:22 PM.

  20. #20
    Possibly the only thing I would just agree with is that demo banner could just go and having both shouts backed into one wouldn't make much of a difference. Don't really see the point in removing deep wounds or any other passive though.
    Heroic throw and berserker stance should go wouldn't miss them at this point. Maybe even all the banners as well although I enjoyed the whole intervening them.
    Also personally I'd want to have a better cooldown than reck next addon so perhaps they could do something about the t90 talents by either making sb baseline or removing it.
    Really don't like the aoe tier. Dragon roar feels pretty weak and I wouldn't really care if it was just removed. Can't understand why someone would want to remove disrupting shout but I guess everyone is entitled to have their own opinion.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2014-01-28 at 10:33 PM.

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