Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Maybe Wildstar will change my mind. Maybe it will another MMO. In the meantime, I feel like a class need to have a healthy number of skills to feel good, and the wow warrior seems to be in a good number right now, to me at least.
    Been playing the WS beta. It's somewhat clunky, and the combat mechanic is literally called "Telegraph". You see the area that the ability is going to hit and then you see it filling up. There's also a bunch of abilities available that you generally just don't use. As a warrior tank I use about 3 of my 9. So far, not impressed at all.



  2. #22
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Frogspoison#1419 Battletag
    Posts
    3,516
    Why the !@#$ would you remove passives? Passives are NOT ability bloat.

    Let me see... Throw/Heroic Throw- Heroic Throw simply replaces Throw. .5 second cast time, no CD, no rage cost ability that deals 50% weapon damage, resets the auto-attack. One button gone if anyone had throw keybinded. Glyphing for silence makes the silence only occur once per 30 seconds.

    Heroic Strike/Cleave- old "iconic" ability for warriors thats not used too often. However, it can be used as a rage dump for prot if you don't mind sacrificing mitigation for more damage (Farm content), and in the very rare even that Arms can't dump rage with slam, keep it. Have it deal 50% damage to 2 other targets for Prot, remove Cleave.

    Sunder Armor- SHOULD be made baseline into Colossal Smash for arms/fury. Glyph will cause it to grant the additional 2 stacks/AoE sunder or something.

    Deep Wounds- DO NOT REMOVE PASSIVES! Warrior bleeds have been around since Vanilla. Damage from bleeds was made mostly passive through WotLK->Cata, and entirely passive during MoP. It also is a "tuning" nob that blizz can use to adjust warrior damage without raising burst too overly much.

    Hamstring- Piercing Howl should "replace" Hamstring if selected as a talent. Otherwise leave Hamstring as is.

    Battle Shout/Commanding Shout- yes, merge them. Many, MANY other classes can bring 2 buffs+debuffs to the party, warriors/paladins can't. Do same with Blessing of Kings/Might.

    Blood and Thunder- once again, passive, do NOT remove passives.

    Berserker Rage- essential for Fury. Old ability. Not likely to go, 6 sec CC immunity MAY be removed to a simple break however.

    Demo Shout- Prot's version of the 20% DR cd found in other tanking classes. Does not contribute to ability bloat. Should not be removed.

    Ultimatum- another passive, do not remove passives. Helps to get out some HS for prot.

    Bastion of Defence- another passive, do not remove passives.

    Recklessness- should be merged with Skull Banner, or Skull Banner merged with it.

    Mocking Banner- with the advent of the 2 new AoE talents, is no longer neccesary. Can see it going.

    Demoralizing Banner- Can be merged with Rallying Cry. Can also see it going.

    As for talents...

    Juggernaut, since its been nerfed from its original purpose, kinda sticks out from the "more charge" passives of the other 2 choices. However, it DOES allow for an extra choice IF you don't want those extra charges, but need your charge'd target to stay in place.

    ER/SW/IV- I can't really call these weak at all. All 3 talents offer a large amount of healing on a very short CD. IV, 20% health per 30 seconds, or .67 health per second. 1 GCD, 10 rage cost, rage cost removed/CD reset if player is killed. Shortest CD "big heal" there is, outside of casted spells. ER, 40% heal, 1 min CD. Same boat as IV. SW, strongest raw number heal there is, but has drawback of 35% health requirement.

    Overall, the healing tier is very, very strong. Very few adjustments needed.

    3rd tier- Will most likely see changes in WoD CC pass.

    4th tier- needs rebalancing here and there. PvP wise, Bladestorm+Bloodbath is both high damage and very hard to counter. Only 2 ways to counter it is to A) Knockback warrior, or B) get the !@#$ away from warrior quickly. A) is limited to only a few classes- hunters, shamans, druids, warlocks. B) isn't as limited, but requires certain talent choices for half the classes, and can't be entirely avoided for others. Not only that, but both are up very often, can be combined with speed boosting abilities, snares the targets, have a wide radius, ect. Is very OP. Shockwave needs damage boost to compete with other 2 single target. Dragon's Roar is more in the middle ground- outshined by BS in any multi-target situation, but good for ST, and was good choice pre-BS buff. Does not need to go.

    MSR- yea, an extra spell reflect is overkill. Could be changed. Most likely outright replacing SR and going back to cata-talent where SR reflected spells from allies.



    Anyone, OP, your primary fault, in my eyes, was calling for the removal of Passives. Passives do NOT contribute to ability bloat, at all. Merging certain passives has no point whatsoever. In addition, many of your changes does not take into account the current playstyle of one or more warriors out there. (Fury balance, PvP). Yes, there IS room for removing some abilities to reduce the number of keybindings. That is what ability bloat removal is all about- reducing the number of keybinded abilities out there. This can be mostly served by merging abilities, or making other abilities passive.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  3. #23
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Jaina Proudmoore's side. Always and forever.
    Posts
    21,813
    If the warrior class identity is the master of weapons and warfare, then our toes are well and truly stepped on by death knights and paladins.
    I apologize for the late response but all three classes are going to be adept at two handed weapons and such or near mastery. That's just one thing that they have in common. It doesn't necessarily mean they'll get the same tools/utility another does. Those three classes if anything will have different named abilities.

    Although utility/raid utility might be the way to go to give more class identity(Not just speaking Warriors).
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple

  4. #24
    Anyone, OP, your primary fault, in my eyes, was calling for the removal of Passives.
    Flurry is passive, and should be removed or redesigned because in it's current state it might as well be the precious's ribbon buff. Removal would (very slightly) boost the value of haste, which is a stat that Blizzard is trying to boost. Everything else is fine.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    Flurry is passive, and should be removed or redesigned because in it's current state it might as well be the precious's ribbon buff. Removal would (very slightly) boost the value of haste, which is a stat that Blizzard is trying to boost. Everything else is fine.
    Whatever happens to a passive like Flurry, it won't be because of ability bloat.

  6. #26
    Regarding Cleave, I'd hate to remove it. I mean it's iconic to our class. I'd like to see it buffed though to make it more worthwhile.

    Get rid of Throw. Give Heroic Throw a slight buff and/or CD reduction, and make the silence permanent in PVE.

    Keep both Battle and Commanding Shout. Remove the CD on both, but make it so they only give rage every minute. Increase the duration so they can actually be relied upon as raid buffs.

  7. #27
    My answers underneath.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    From the top, then.

    Baseline Abilities:

    Throw: Fix Heroic Throw to have a 15 second cooldown, and this can go.

    -It has it's utility in certain boss fights and is good for breaking CC's in raids or dungeons while maintaining distance.

    Heroic Strike/Cleave: Currently propped up by a proc for tanks and generally not used at all for Arms. This could go.

    - But a mainstay of the Fury rotation. Relevance can be brought back to Prot if the Heavy Repercussions glyph is changed.

    Sunder Armor: Tanks have Devastate, DPS toons don't need it. It should go.

    - Not all tanks have it. Either get rid of the debuff or keep the ability.

    Deep Wounds: Warriors aren't really a bleed class, so this could go.

    - It's how warriors keep pressure on ranged in PVP. Removing it would see the damage of over abilities having to rise causing burst problems.

    Hamstring: I'm a fan of Piercing Howl as baseline and Hamstring has been a balancing nuisance (GCD/off GCD). It should go.

    - Would the rage cost stay the same?

    Battle Shout/Commanding Shout: Merge these two together and get rid of the other.

    - Agreed

    Blood and Thunder: Without Deep Wounds, we don't need Blood and Thunder. It could go.

    - Passive ability the helps tremendously with AOE threat as TC is on a 6 second CD and revenge and cleave have the range of a dwarf.

    Berserker Rage: With less CC in the game and the damage easily tunable elsewhere, this could go.

    - Our only baseline CC breaker, every class will still have at least one so keep it.

    Demoralizing Shout: Roll out Die by the Sword for all three specs. This should go.

    - DbtS would be a touch OP for a tank I believe. You are aware it comes with 100% parry?

    Ultimatum: Proc used to stop the redundancy of Heroic Strike. It should go.

    - As above, depends on the HR glyph.

    Bastion of Defence: This could be weaved into Unwavering Sentinel or vice versa. This should go.

    - While Blizzard doesn't like ability bloat they also don't like tooltips as long as your arm.

    Recklessness: Merge the effect with Avatar and make Avatar the warrior baseline cooldown; Recklessness can then go.

    - I'm happy with Avatar

    Shattering Throw: Unnecessary damage debuff in PvE, awkward in PvP. It should go.

    - Depends what they do with immunities in WoD

    Riposte: Won't be required in WoD anymore. It will go.

    - Yes

    Mocking Banner: To me, it's stupid. Impossible to quickly explain why. It should go.

    - Very useful banner to make up for a Warriors lack of constantly available AoE while giving it a long enough CD that it needs to be strategically used. Though the Level 100 talent Blade Barrier could change this if it makes it live.

    Demoralizing Banner: We have raid defensive utility with Rallying Cry. This should go.

    - Agreed

    Talents:

    Talents are unlikely to be touched because then they'd need replaced but, honestly, this is what I'd do with them.

    Juggernaut: Make this baseline and put another talent in its place.

    - If some CC's are removed this would make it OP and near impossible to kite a warrior.

    ER/SW/IV: This tier is so abnormally weak, we could have all three and not be overpowered. Pick one of them, buff it, make it baseline, and remove the other two for something better.

    - Warriors do need more self healing, like always.

    SS/PH/DS: Piercing Howl at baseline has been asked for years, while Staggering Shout is crap and we don't need a second interrupt. Replace this entire tier.

    - Blizzard consider interupts a form of CC so DS could be going. PH would be nice to have as baseline and SS would be removed as another form of cc.

    BS/SWa/DR: Give Bladestorm to Arms, Shockwave to tanks and Dragon Roar to Fury. Replace this entire tier.

    - SW could be made specific to Prot again due to CC though would like its CD to be back to 20s regardless of targets hit. BS would have to be buffed because on ST target fights it isn't as good as DR unless that want to pigeonhole Arms as the AoE spec.

    Mass Spell Reflect: We already have one reflect, we don't need another. This should go.

    - It has it's uses in PvP and PvE. Very situational which is what a talent should be.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by FobManX View Post
    Get rid of Throw. Give Heroic Throw a slight buff and/or CD reduction, and make the silence permanent in PVE.
    um wat..? I really dont think they'd give us a permanent silence. lol

  9. #29
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    243
    Overall im not a fan of ability culling. But those are the ones that are possible without making gameplay much worse.

    -remove sunder
    -remove throw
    -merge rallying+demo banner
    -merge reck+skull banner
    -merge shouts
    -remove Cleave and bake it into Meatcleaver somehow
    -remove HS for Arms only
    -remove whirlwind for arms

  10. #30
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Edinburgh, Scotland
    Posts
    3,031
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    I will give a Wildstar a try when it's released, but on the meanwhile I have been playing a bit of FFXIV, a white mage. And the limited set of skills the class has leaves me a bit cold. I may play one month more, but when I stop playing, I will forget about the class. It is a vanilla healer, the one you find in every MMO. Maybe with a different design the class would be more memorable, but I feel that having only a few skills to work with limits the design a lot. Most devs like to cover the basics (single heal, aoe heal, hot, shield, basic CDs, etc) and then expand upon it adding additional skills. When they have a limited number of skills to work with, they end up adding very few or none original skills, and it's hard to remember a class like that with fondness.

    Maybe Wildstar will change my mind. Maybe it will another MMO. In the meantime, I feel like a class need to have a healthy number of skills to feel good, and the wow warrior seems to be in a good number right now, to me at least.
    That's kind of what I was saying earlier, it's not that I think you're wrong; I just disagree with your preferences, it's horses for courses.

    As for WildStar's limited action set, what that means is that you have eight slots on your bar and that's it; you get to choose, from quite a wide selection, what eight make it there. I'd think of it more as a talent selector than what you describe with FFXIV (which I won't discuss, 'cos I haven't played).

    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    :edit:
    OH OH OH OH!

    CHANGE THE SOUND OF WILD STRIKE
    Mhm. x_X
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  11. #31
    I would just like to point out that:

    1 How long a spell has been in the game should not even be considered as an argument to keep or remove it
    and
    2 You guys are thinking about the game today without some spells. If they cut down the number of Fear spells in WoD we shouldnt keep a Fear breaker anymore.

  12. #32
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    779
    Quote Originally Posted by Khorm View Post
    stuff
    "It has its uses" is not a good argument for not removing certain abilities. Every single ability has a small niche in the current raid where you can intelligently weave it in.

    All in all, I think the smart way to solve this is to modify existing abilities, which are relatively similar:

    - heroic strike hits three targets. Cleave gone.
    - Commanding Shout buffs Health and AP. Battle Shout gone.
    - Skullbanner adds Recklessness as a personal buff. Recklessness gone. Could be problematic to balance around two warriors who want to Reck during initial phase at the same time.
    - Die by the sword for all speccs. Demoshout gone. Adjust for prot if too OP. Adjust CD as well then.
    - Reduce CD of heroic throw, bake Glyph of Impaling Throws into it. Throw gone.
    - Spellreflect stay as it is. Remove Massspellreflect. Replace with passive talent, that adds Massspellreflect ability to Spellreflect. Massspellreflect as a button gone.
    - Bake Hamstring into Heroic Strike (Like that Hindering Strikes-Glyph). Make Heroic Strike more interesting for Arms. Keeps it off gcd. Hamstring gone.
    - Bake Colossus Smash Glyph into Colossus Smash. Add glyph to apply two additional stacks with it. Sunder Armor gone.

    Things that should stay and why:
    - Berserkerrage. Make it our root, snare, daze and fearbreaker. Increase CD to one minute.
    - Deep wounds. Bleeds were around since classic and contribute to class identity. Also, pressure on casters.

    And a few suggestions, which not contribute to ability bloat:
    - Make Demo-Banner a Moralizing banner. Debuffing stuff sucks. Buffing the raid wins.
    - Shattering Throw 3 Minute cd. Perhaps lower the amount of armor, which is reduced.
    Last edited by Valech; 2014-01-29 at 02:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  13. #33
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Edinburgh, Scotland
    Posts
    3,031
    Quote Originally Posted by Valech View Post
    "It has its uses" is not a good argument for not removing certain abilities. Every single ability has a small niche in the current raid where you can intelligently weave it in.

    All in all, I think the smart way to solve this is to modify existing abilities, which are relatively similar:

    - heroic strike hits three targets. Cleave gone.
    - Commanding Shout buffs Health and AP. Battle Shout gone.
    - Skullbanner adds Recklessness as a personal buff. Recklessness gone. Could be problematic to balance around two warriors who want to Reck during initial phase at the same time.
    - Die by the sword for all speccs. Demoshout gone. Adjust for prot if too OP. Adjust CD as well then.
    - Reduce CD of heroic throw, bake Glyph of Impaling Throws into it. Throw gone.
    - Spellreflect stay as it is. Remove Massspellreflect. Replace with passive talent, that adds Massspellreflect ability to Spellreflect. Massspellreflect as a button gone.
    - Bake Hamstring into Heroic Strike (Like that Hindering Strikes-Glyph). Make Heroic Strike more interesting for Arms. Keeps it off gcd. Hamstring gone.
    - Bake Colossus Smash Glyph into Colossus Smash. Add glyph to apply two additional stacks with it. Sunder Armor gone.

    Things that should stay and why:
    - Berserkerrage. Make it our root, snare, daze and fearbreaker. Increase CD to one minute.
    - Deep wounds. Bleeds were around since classic and contribute to class identity. Also, pressure on casters.

    And a few suggestions, which not contribute to ability bloat:
    - Make Demo-Banner a Moralizing banner. Debuffing stuff sucks. Buffing the raid wins.
    - Shattering Throw 3 Minute cd. Perhaps lower the amount of armor, which is reduced.
    These don't meet my overall preferences, but that's the type of thinking this thread needs; not "it's occasionally useful, it must stay".

    Great post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    um wat..? I really dont think they'd give us a permanent silence. lol
    Sorry, let me rephrase. Heroic Throw interupts/silences for like 3 seconds when glyphed. Instead of requiring the glyph, just make the interupt/silence baseline for PVE, for 3 seconds or whatever the duration is.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Valech View Post
    - Make Demo-Banner a Moralizing banner. Debuffing stuff sucks. Buffing the raid wins.
    This makes no sense. It demoralizes the mobs so you take less damage... flavor wise that is.



  16. #36
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    779
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    This makes no sense. It demoralizes the mobs so you take less damage... flavor wise that is.
    Yeah, but it is useless for raiddamage from an untargetable source. Ticking Orbs at Norushen. Puddles Immerseus. Tower archers are out of reach Galakras. Whirling weapons at Nazgrim. Orbs at Malkorok hc.

    My point is, that the banners utility should´t be castrated like that. It should buff the group instead of debuffing the enemy. Think of it as a glorious banner, raising the group´s spirit, sparking its fighting will... Or whatever. Flavor wise.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  17. #37
    While you used a bunch of talents and passive abilities, which have NOTHING to do with ability bloat, some of the non-passive things that can be removed;

    Intimidating Shout (how has nobody mentioned this, it's probably taking up a keybind and do you use it anywhere outside of pvp?(and rarely at that))

    Cleave (merge it with HS)

    Berserker rage can go IF! fury doesn't need to rely on it so heavily for RB procs, especially early on in the expansion.

    Shouts can be merged

    Shattering throw needs to be made instant cast or removed.

    Intervene could be removed from fury and arms, if not altogether. It adds a lot of mobility to warriors in pvp (thus scaling that back by removing it) and isn't used much in pve.

    Disarms should be removed across the board, they are just another slot on the bar and more CC.

  18. #38
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    779
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    Intervene could be removed from fury and arms, if not altogether. It adds a lot of mobility to warriors in pvp (thus scaling that back by removing it) and isn't used much in pve.
    I´d like to object.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Valech View Post
    I´d like to object.
    I object as well, but sometimes I wish it weren't in the game when I mouseover intervene the tank by accident.



    Those deaths are the best just because they're of the "WTF" variety. I never realize I intervened the tank, and there can be a 3-10 second delay in the attack being transferred to kill me.

    On a serious note, I use intervene on a lot of fights with heavy movement. While moments like the above suck, moments like this on siegecrafter are pretty awesome:


    (Demo banner is used due to heavy raid damage, double bonus.)

    From the belt to the boss on the other side of the room in 3~ seconds.

    With Blizzard making more complex encounters every tier, we really do not want to give up the added mobility of intervene.


    (Edit: Also, best minor glyph idea in the history of WoW: Intervene no longer intercepts damaging attacks. )
    Last edited by CollisionTD; 2014-01-29 at 11:16 PM.

  20. #40
    That's not the ability's fault, that's a call for improving your binds.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •