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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Caliph View Post
    I'm a normal raider who uses flex to gear and considers normal raids as progression. So i'm not a top player or heroic raider type.
    You're still in the top 5%. I guess everyone who reads MMO-C is in the top 10% so they have no idea what the average player is.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    That's such a specious argument. There is content for the lowest common denominator out there - MoP heroics. Then there are more challenging things: challenge modes, heroic scenarios, heroic raids...
    Not a lot of people do challenge modes because the difficulty does not reward enough for it to be even worth it. I personally like what the guy above said:

    "gear-scaled mythic modes that demand BC heroic level coordination (without the mandatory paladin+mage bodies in every run) which we could all run at level cap for fun and gear-appropriate prizes (come in wearing TierX-ilevel gear, come out with a chance of winning TierX-1 thru TierX+1 equivalent ilevel non-tier gear)."

    Sort of like challenge modes but actually with a potential reward other than a bit more valor and a one-time gear set.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post

    While I wouldn't classify MoP heroics as hard, there were certainly places we used it when the entire group was fresh to 90. Shadopan Monestary was one place, especially with the sha dudes before the bridge and the big panda packs before the last boss. We also used CC in Mogushan Palace, and I'm sure a few other places, too. Was it absolutely necessary? Probably not if your group was good. Did it make things smoother early on? Absolutely. Would it be recommended to less skilled or experienced groups? Sure!

    I'm sure there were plenty of players out there who benefited from using CC in Mist dungeons.
    While I partially agree with you, MoP 5mans are the easiest HC's in WoW's history. Even at the hight of WotLK 5 man HC's simply weren't soloable under 5 mins by any dps with SoO normal gear. Now the only two instances that take more then 5 mins to solo are the Siege of Niuzao (or whatever it's name is, with the waves boss even) just because you need to dick around and do RP for 5 mins, and Scholomance just because it is so long and has some gimmicks/gating and RP.
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    Sexual assault is not always rape.
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    Woman rapes a guy, gives birth to child and has custody of the child.
    I don't see why you should take the child from the woman unless she abuses it.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    Still,
    Cata 4.0 heroics minus the raped healers, thanks.
    Yeah that really sucked those first few weeks. Was hilarious how H. Pally could heal through the normal stupid, but any other healer was oom in like 20 seconds if shit went wrong. Good times
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  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoon View Post
    Maybe Celestion has tons of data that none of us have access to and the truth is 90% of players used CC on the majority of pulls on MoP heroics....

    As for the rest of us who live in the real world (of warcraft), I never ever saw people CC in MoP heroic dungeons outside of Gekkan, and that was only the first few days of MoP... and if you didn't CC it was fine, it just generally took a bit longer if people missed interrupts.

    To me, this is just another example of Blizz employees being out of touch with the playerbase. I am not advocating for harder/easier heroic dungeons, but it would be nice to see Blizzard actually speak the truth instead of the constant "well numbers (that we won't share) show that people do X... and the entire playerbase says Y class is OP but they are wrong cause of our numbers (but in 3 months we will realize they are OP and nerf them)."
    It's people who post to MMO-C who are out of touch with reality. MMO-C posters are 100x more likely to have cleared h Garry than the average player.

    And how many people do you know / have personally interacted with who play WoW ? Including pugs you've only grouped with once, maybe a few hundred ? Out of the millions of accounts ?

    I've never met someone from Bahrain. Doesn't mean there aren't over a million people living there.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Sigh...

    Why do you folks automatically think that everyone is an at least average player? There are some pretty awful players in the game.

    Just because YOU never had to use CC or were in a group that never had to, doesn't mean that is the same experience for everyone else.

    Celestalon also has data to back up what he says, whereas anyone on MMO-C has anecdotes.
    If only the LFD tool grouped people by their experience and overall skill, your post would make sense. Since LFD is completely random.... I would have to have plenty of groups with sub average players... wouldn;t that also mean I would likely be in a group that needs CC? Except, that I never ever did. And its not because I was so freakishly awesome that I "overpowered" the groups.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    That's such a specious argument. There is content for the lowest common denominator out there - MoP heroics. Then there are more challenging things: challenge modes, heroic scenarios, heroic raids...
    I'd say normal dungeons are, or should be, for lower than average or average players
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  8. #88
    CC was never used. I NEVER ran a single pre made dungeon and did tons and tons of them throughout all of MoP. We didn't not use CC because we were so amazingly geared and experienced when we hit them at 435 ilvl or whatever the req was the first week. We didn't use CC because it was faceroll stupid mode. In fact the dumber/less experienced the player the MORE likely they won't use CC even if needed. Which it wasn't. At all. They're AoE grinds with bosses at the end. Straight Wotlk style.

  9. #89
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    It's people who post to MMO-C who are out of touch with reality. MMO-C posters are 100x more likely to have cleared h Garry than the average player.

    And how many people do you know / have personally interacted with who play WoW ? Including pugs you've only grouped with once, maybe a few hundred ? Out of the millions of accounts ?

    I've never met someone from Bahrain. Doesn't mean there aren't over a million people living there.
    Yeah but if the "average" player is so bad, they also wouldn't use CC if they needed it. If they were smart/coordinated enough to use CC in a MoP Heroic, they wouldn't need CC.

    It's really a very strange statement for a blue to make. I wish he would share the data he's basing this on.

  10. #90
    The Lightbringer UnifiedDivide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    If only the LFD tool grouped people by their experience and overall skill, your post would make sense. Since LFD is completely random.... I would have to have plenty of groups with sub average players... wouldn;t that also mean I would likely be in a group that needs CC? Except, that I never ever did. And its not because I was so freakishly awesome that I "overpowered" the groups.
    I don't much care if YOU didn't find yourself in a group that needed to use CC at some point. Why? Because your experience involves so few of the overall player base that it's pointless to use it as an example. Even if you did only dungeons to level from 15-90, you're still only going to meet, maybe, a few hundred players. The amount you interact with for the 5 levels to 90 is negligible.

    I'm not saying the dungeons weren't difficult and needed CC, they were piss easy, I'm saying that you don't represent the entire player base. There are players out there that did indeed need CC to get past some parts of the dungeons.

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  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    You're still in the top 5%. I guess everyone who reads MMO-C is in the top 10% so they have no idea what the average player is.
    Except most players use LFD. I don't see how you can say they haven't interacted with most dungeon-running players in this game, unless you think there is some subset of bad players who refuse to use LFD and only queue together.

    This whole nonsense about people being out of touch with the rest of the player base is garbage spouted by those who want to appear right while simultaneously avoiding a constructive discussion on the issue.

    The only trash I would consider hard is a few packs in monastery.

  12. #92
    I dunno if this has been said already, but anyone who wasn't good enough to reasonably do the MOP dungeons without much trouble, surely wouldn't be able to do manage CC? It doesn't seem to add up.

    Also, I know not everyone had the same experience in MOP, but undoubtedly the MOP HCs were easier than the Cata HCs, which is perhaps where some of the feeling of them being too easy comes from?
    "I'm sorry, but I can't hear you over the sound of how bad ass my discipline priest looks."

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Yeah but if the "average" player is so bad, they also wouldn't use CC if they needed it. If they were smart/coordinated enough to use CC in a MoP Heroic, they wouldn't need CC.

    It's really a very strange statement for a blue to make. I wish he would share the data he's basing this on.
    Its twitter. If it was an official blue post then ya, I'd be asking questions, but its a tweet. We have no clue what he was trying to say or what he was thinking at the time.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    I don't much care if YOU didn't find yourself in a group that needed to use CC at some point. Why? Because your experience involves so few of the overall player base that it's pointless to use it as an example. Even if you did only dungeons to level from 15-90, you're still only going to meet, maybe, a few hundred players. The amount you interact with for the 5 levels to 90 is negligible.

    I'm not saying the dungeons weren't difficult and needed CC, they were piss easy, I'm saying that you don't represent the entire player base. There are players out there that did indeed need CC to get past some parts of the dungeons.
    I know exactly what you are saying. I also understand that if CC was necessary, that, of the hundreds of dungeons I ran during MoP... I would have reasonably ran into a group of people that wanted to use CC, and so would the other posters here. I used CC in Cata release, sure.. almost every single heroic on release... in fact... but in MoP? Nope. Can you really pretend like a player that used CC in almost every cata release heroic.. and didn;t use ANY CC in MoP release heroics... is just some sort of phenomenon?

    Sure, its safe to say that there are players less skilled than I, but I also think its safe to say that CC probably was rarely used during the MoP heroics, even on release. I alos doubt Blizzard has the stats to prove your point.. even if they had a tracker for "Hard CC used in Heroics" .. I doubt it would reflect anything the tweet in question said.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzorx View Post
    Its twitter. If it was an official blue post then ya, I'd be asking questions, but its a tweet. We have no clue what he was trying to say or what he was thinking at the time.
    Unless you are implying he was drunk tweeting.. Its clear what the question was, and its clear what the answer was. The orignal tweet said 0 cc was used, Celestion replied "That was not the experience for the majority."

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by StrayFox View Post
    They are making Heroic Dungeons more difficult, a blue posted this a while back.
    If that is the case, and they retool the fights to actually NEED cc, that would be awesome. Tank-n-spank gets boring after awhile.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Yeah but if the "average" player is so bad, they also wouldn't use CC if they needed it. If they were smart/coordinated enough to use CC in a MoP Heroic, they wouldn't need CC.

    It's really a very strange statement for a blue to make. I wish he would share the data he's basing this on.
    I don't think it's all that strange a niche -- players who had trouble with the mobs but also know how to cc. You can set up CC without aggroing mobs, meaning you have all the time in the world to plan the attack. But once they're aggroed you're relying on reaction speed.

    It's a far cry from reading a CC ability's tooltip in-game to looking up guides on fan sites about how to maximize your dps/hps/survivability.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    Not even solo LFD have I seen a single CC in MoP. Not that I really care...

    Still,
    Cata 4.0 heroics minus the raped healers, thanks.
    Do you mean when healing was actually interesting?
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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Icyflamez View Post
    Not a lot of people do challenge modes because the difficulty does not reward enough for it to be even worth it.
    Then it's not really about the challenge is it?

  19. #99
    CC will only be required when mobs have CC themselves!

    Bring back mobs that stun, armor debuffs, fear, MC, drop aggro, chain heal, heal in general, wing buffets, anti magic zones, strength buffs while in proximity of other NPC's, summon more mobs, frenzies, random charges, etc.

    Until they treat a pack of mobs like a 5v5 arena match the aoe fest will continue

  20. #100
    Honestly, if during MoP you needed CC at anything that wasn't PvP or Normal SoO, your group is bad.
    MoP had the lowest CC requirement of any xpac, sitting at a nice 0.

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