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  1. #141
    Herald of the Titans Mighty Blue Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    I don't disagree with him one bit.

    Anytime anyone says CC is advisable, there's always some guy who wants to scoff at the idea of using CC. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Heroic Magisters Terrace or a Utgard Keep, those people will always be the first to volunteer they never needed CC and therefore CC was unnecessary. Half the time it's people who forget what it was like to do heroics in greens and blues, other times it's people who don't realise their skill level is in the top percentages of the game's players (or they do and they just feel like boasting).

    While I wouldn't classify MoP heroics as hard, there were certainly places we used it when the entire group was fresh to 90. Shadopan Monestary was one place, especially with the sha dudes before the bridge and the big panda packs before the last boss. We also used CC in Mogushan Palace, and I'm sure a few other places, too. Was it absolutely necessary? Probably not if your group was good. Did it make things smoother early on? Absolutely. Would it be recommended to less skilled or experienced groups? Sure!

    I'm sure there were plenty of players out there who benefited from using CC in Mist dungeons.
    This. I was normally the person who HAD to explain CC to everyone H MgT.

    Ugh, but still, pretty fun days! Back when BM Hunters were monsters and not pussy cats! :3

  2. #142
    The few MoP dungeons I did we steamrolled through easy, total random players, first time through for several of us.

  3. #143
    People who dinged 90 in the first week by and large were better then the people who didn't. I remember running LFG the first few days after hitting 90 and just powering thru everything easily with no effort and then about 3 weeks in I went back to cap doing instances and despite having more gear they were way harder to carry people thru.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by VoodooGaming View Post
    No, Crowd-Control wasn't necessary in Mists of Pandaria Dungeons, but just because it was necessary doesn't mean it wouldn't have been useful or even easier to use. People are largely impatient these days and refuse to wait a few seconds to get the Crowd-Control going. Just because it wasn't needed, doesn't mean it was worthless.
    No one is saying its worthless. Again, this is about how necessary they were. They weren't necessary according to most here. But people want to actually need to use them.

  5. #145
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    "You are more experienced than most" "It was not the experience of the majority" - why am I not surprised that to people here it translates to "A member of the WoW team tells me about something where they have factual data - they must be lying, because me and my buddies have a different experience" oh..I forgot to add "LOL"

    Next time you tell us that nobody ever wiped in a 5 man or heroic 5 man. Well - I swear on the occasion that we DID wipe, CC would have prevented that.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  6. #146
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    For context, this is the entire conversation rather than just the last two tweets:

    https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...65768588967936

    I was curious if Celestalon was maybe not referring to CC, but to dungeons being less-than-faceroll for some players. But it seems he definitely is saying what we think he's saying. =/

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    "You are more experienced than most" "It was not the experience of the majority" - why am I not surprised that to people here it translates to "A member of the WoW team tells me about something where they have factual data - they must be lying, because me and my buddies have a different experience" oh..I forgot to add "LOL"

    Next time you tell us that nobody ever wiped in a 5 man or heroic 5 man. Well - I swear on the occasion that we DID wipe, CC would have prevented that.
    I would of course love to see the data showing that CC was used in the majority of Heroics ran. (If its even tracked) =]

  8. #148
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    I would of course love to see the data showing that CC was used in the majority of Heroics ran. (If its even tracked) =]
    They can't even track a lot of achievement criteria retroactively. Not a chance they know about CC legitimately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  9. #149
    It is the other way around. Scrubs never CC. They do not even know what that is. You could have made some pulls slightly more easy, but so did focusing the single mob that had some kind of healing going on. Unless you will need to CC AND focus burn annother target, you will not need CC in dungeons. You needed CC in Vanilla because almost no one had good AoE. In Burning Crusade you needed CC because most tanks could not AoE tank and you had combinations of annoying NPC in trash groups, like a healer and a mortal strike guy in the same group (or even more of those). Now everyone has kickass AoE, especially the tanks. And everyone and their sister can interrupt.

  10. #150
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Your experience is not everyone's experience. Just because you managed to brute-force your way through every dungeon trash pack & boss doesn't mean the rest of WoW did.
    Outside of Challenge modes, CC was never required. Even in LFD random groups with greens/blues.
    Anyone who says otherwise either remembers incorrectly or CC'd because he was used to it from Cata.

    Ifalna Sha'yoko on Twitter and Armory - Occasionally unfaithful to WoW with my Adorable Miqo'te - (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━ ┻

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    "You are more experienced than most" "It was not the experience of the majority" - why am I not surprised that to people here it translates to "A member of the WoW team tells me about something where they have factual data - they must be lying, because me and my buddies have a different experience" oh..I forgot to add "LOL"
    Blizzard often bullshits and twists their "data" when it suits them. I can still remember at the start of MoP being told constantly "Ret is performing well in our internal tests" whilst players were not seeing the results, and then getting a 15% damage boost next patch.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Karenai View Post
    And everyone and their sister don't need to interrupt.
    Fixed that for you!

  13. #153
    I'm not really sure why people want to force hard CC back into dungeons. Whether or not party will kill a group of mob is mainly if 'dps of enemies on tank/party' > 'healer hps'. If you can dive into group of mobs without using anything but basic tanking tools and normal healing, there is no need for cc. What if enemies actually do outdo what healer can do? You start trying to decrease damage mobs can do, which includes:
    Interrups, soft cc (stun/disorients), focusing dangerous mob, popping dps cd to kill it quickly, popping healer cd to increase healing, popping tank cd to decrease damage, kiting, off tanking via pet, los, hard cc.
    Every way of dealing with hard mobs is active combat and require a bit of skill to do it properly, especially if rotated through multiple people. Every, except hard ccs pre pull. 4 mobs dealing too much damage? Np. sheep one, sap second, kill one pair, kill second pair. Skill and fun...
    Challenge modes is closest we have to TBC level heroics and I personally find them 'fun' because they require proper control over groups of enemies and planned use of various cds while taking risky pulls. All of that because of timer that prevents hard cc if you are going for gold. If you remove timer, people would just cc half packs each time, this is dull and slow. Prepull cc are boring and hardly require any skill, this is coming from banish/seduce/fearing lock in MrT hc back in BC, when using cc pulled pack. Or rather - fun during first 2 clears, then tedious.

    I wish Blizz brings trash in dungeons closer to what they did CMs. Got good coordinated group of people? Blitz through aoe with control and planning. Got pug/not so good players? Let them hard cc stuff before and kill groups slower, but easier. Way better than BC style which iirc (so long ago...) was 'each of this 2 mobs can two shot tank so you have to cc one or get globalled' style of cheap.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    They can't even track a lot of achievement criteria retroactively. Not a chance they know about CC legitimately.
    Hehehe I know =] I'm sure they are afraid to change it and slightly annoy a small percentage of people.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    I wish Blizz brings trash in dungeons closer to what they did CMs. Got good coordinated group of people? Blitz through aoe with control and planning. Got pug/not so good players? Let them hard cc stuff before and kill groups slower, but easier. Way better than BC style which iirc (so long ago...) was 'each of this 2 mobs can two shot tank so you have to cc one or get globalled' style of cheap.
    If that were the case, wouldn't tanks have been 2 shotted anyway lol? Even if you kill/cc the others?

  15. #155

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    If that were the case, wouldn't tanks have been 2 shotted anyway lol? Even if you kill/cc the others?
    Two shot not one shot, but maybe bit overblown. One of few memories I have from this time was Sethekk Halls twin guards before each room. Hit like trucks, root one, kill other, first enrage and you better mash that heal button or tank goes splat.

  17. #157
    I don't get why his personal opinions matter exactly.

    Remember that GC was pretty openly anti heroic 10m yet that didn't effect their design decisions.

  18. #158
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzorx View Post
    I don't get why his personal opinions matter exactly.

    Remember that GC was pretty openly anti heroic 10m yet that didn't effect their design decisions.
    GC Likely had significant input into WoD, just sayin'
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    No one is saying its worthless. Again, this is about how necessary they were. They weren't necessary according to most here. But people want to actually need to use them.
    Actually for MoP heroics CC was worthless. You would get through the trash faster if you just facepulled for Vengence and AoE rather than actually stopping, CCing and being careful.

  20. #160
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    To be fair the only packs that CC really helped were the guys before Taran Zhu in Shado-Pan Monastery. Those packs were pretty nasty when you were in 450 blues. Also Gekkan on Heroic (I think it was Gekkan? The Saurok boss in Mogu'shan Palace with the minions) needed CC to keep the Hexer and the Priest out of the way. It maybe helped on those heavy-hitting packs in Scarlet Monastery (Scarlet Myrmidon?)

    That's all I can recall, and of course this is about launch.
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