Thread: bm bis list?

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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    EDIT: Yeah I switched both hunter profiles to be Enchanting/Alchemy to just have flat Agi bonuses - this put Collision ahead again.
    Yeah, I'm not sure why I haven't made a post or talked about this previously. It certainly wasn't meant to be hush-hush.

    One thing that is interesting about this Engineering Synapse Strings misalignment is that the Assurance dropoff is highly indicative of what we should expect from profession synergies in WoD as well, since this cooldown reduction will be baked in through gear. Unless something is changed about Engineering (which is unlikely), Engineering will go from being the top Profession for BM throughout most of this expansion to the tier between crafting professions and gathering professions in dps gains in WoD.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by shanattah View Post
    How can that make any difference with RF off GCD? It sounds like FD must have an old code for RF imo if it was a DPS increase.
    I checked into this particular case. It's because RF is off the GCD but FF is not. So if you cast Focus Fire first, there is a short period of GCD before you cast Rapid Fire, where Focus Fire is giving you increased regen but Rapid Fire is not. When you cast Rapid Fire first, you cast Focus Fire immediately, and the regen multiplier of the two overlaps for that extra second. This causes minute shifts in the amount of focus available. If you turn on the debug report, you can see this happens at 159.747 seconds.

    These shifts don't have a significant impact, but right towards the end of the fight, at 281.918, you can see that it changes whether you cast Cobra Shot or Glaive Toss first (this is due to the focus pooling that's enabled for Kill Command- in one case there is not quite enough focus to cast the Glaive Toss without eating up too much focus for Kill Command). In the end, this small change leads to the Focus Fire first case gaining an Arcane Shot and losing a Cobra Shot.

    It's an unfortunate limitation of a single simulation environment that these very small tweaks can cause these swings- when you introduce true randomness and multiple iterations you even out these types of things, thus Simulationcraft is really much better for doing more detailed analysis of shot priorities (and is capable of more finesse in the settings).

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeherah View Post
    I checked into this particular case. It's because RF is off the GCD but FF is not. So if you cast Focus Fire first, there is a short period of GCD before you cast Rapid Fire, where Focus Fire is giving you increased regen but Rapid Fire is not. When you cast Rapid Fire first, you cast Focus Fire immediately, and the regen multiplier of the two overlaps for that extra second. This causes minute shifts in the amount of focus available. If you turn on the debug report, you can see this happens at 159.747 seconds.

    These shifts don't have a significant impact, but right towards the end of the fight, at 281.918, you can see that it changes whether you cast Cobra Shot or Glaive Toss first (this is due to the focus pooling that's enabled for Kill Command- in one case there is not quite enough focus to cast the Glaive Toss without eating up too much focus for Kill Command). In the end, this small change leads to the Focus Fire first case gaining an Arcane Shot and losing a Cobra Shot.

    It's an unfortunate limitation of a single simulation environment that these very small tweaks can cause these swings- when you introduce true randomness and multiple iterations you even out these types of things, thus Simulationcraft is really much better for doing more detailed analysis of shot priorities (and is capable of more finesse in the settings).
    What about the 15002 haste cap, tho? ;P

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  4. #184
    Looking at this specific profile: http://www.femaledwarf.com/?setting_id=20597

    I see a shift happening between 15001 and 15002 haste (using -100 and -101 custom haste). It looks like it's caused by the small amount of difference in haste affecting the shot selection and xuen procs (since xuen proc rate does scale with haste). In this case, the version at -100 haste shifts the timing of an invigoration proc one shot earlier at 161.8. This leads to some minor shifting in ability timing throughout the rest of the simulation which eventually causes a trade of a cobra for an arcane shot. In the end, the -100 haste case gains a cobra shot and loses an arcane shot, but it also gains a flurry of xuen proc which amounts to a noticeable dps gain.

    It has nothing to do with Dire Beast. Dire Beast isn't implemented with haste breakpoints- if you dig into the debug data you can actually find the db_ticks counter I'm using. At one point Dire Beast was coded to cut off partial attacks, but when I was informed of the test data showing that there's a random delay built into Dire Beast to prevent there being specific haste break points on it, I modified the code to just calculate ticks and leave in the decimals to even out the variance over the course of the fight. This was many months ago.

    You can usually see where the difference in damage is coming from if you look at the shot counts, although sometimes you have to dig more deeply into the simulated shot list.

    Thanks to Effin btw for bringing my attention to the thread- I often miss posts like this, so if you have specific mechanics questions about the site, the best thing to do is to email me- there's contact info on my website. I don't always have time to respond, but I usually try to look into it when someone lets me know there might be an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kibu View Post
    Azortharion is completely right, something seems to happen either live or in FD at this mythical 15000-15200 treshold, which i cant seem to figure out:


    Steady/Cobra Shot Speed:
    1.3413 sec. (49.113% attack speed bonus)


    Hunter Regen:
    5.422 focus per sec.

    Pet Regen:
    6.778 focus per sec. ( pet would have enough focus to Bite every 4 seconds, regardless )

    Dire Beast Attack Speed:
    1.3413 sec. (Estimated Attack Count: 12.18) ( this is just estimate, the same would occur with ~14200 haste )

    All in all its kinda weird, the positive thing during my sims, was that the same gear setup ( maybe with a different chest ) and miscelaneus reforges, seem to yield the best results.
    Last edited by Zeherah; 2014-02-17 at 10:20 PM.

  5. #185
    Speaking as a spec who gains 3 dps per haste point (in reality 2 dps, lol 150% haste modifier) I'm glad I don't have to worry about this crap. :P

    Also, are there any commonly used agility trinkets this tier/last tier that either don't proc agility (mastery/etc), or proc stacking agility? I don't know offhand, my hunter is like ilevel 510 with a heroic boa, lol. It would matter, as if this is made the default line it may not use stampede that often for people with suboptimal trinkets, and I'll have to think of a creative way to make it work with those trinkets while not screwing up people with trinkets from tier. Also, would it even be worth using stampede with crit/mastery/haste procs?

    I'm gonna mess around with engineering, I bet there's a way to maximize engineering to make it better than other professions. A few questions for that:

    1: Does murder of crows/dire beast snapshot agility?
    2: Is it worth delaying rapid fire a few seconds to sync up with springs? Or is that too inconsistent?

    My initial idea: (I'm going to add/fix a dummy buff to the hunter on simcraft that pops up when stampede is being used. I think there is one already, but it has 100% uptime... not very useful.)

    actions+=/use,slot=hands,if=buff.stampede.up|(!cooldown.murder_of_crows.remains&(cooldown.stampede.r emains>60|trinket.stat.agility.cooldown_remains>60))|(cooldown.murder_of_crows>60&cooldown .stampede.remains>60)

    So springs will be used if stampede is up, if the cooldown on murder of crows is up (so it will be used in the next second) and the cooldown on stampede OR the cooldown on the ICD trinket is more than 60 seconds away, or it will just be used if both MoC/stampede are >60 seconds away.

    How it will work on a fight:
    01~: Stampede/Springs are used ( assurance has procced, 115 icd)
    02~: MoC
    61: MoC is slightly more than 60 seconds away, so springs are used.
    122: MoC/Springs are used, most likely assurance will have procced sometime in the last 5 seconds.
    182: Springs are available, but are delayed as the CD on stampede is ready, and the ICD on assurance is <60 seconds.
    230~ish: Stampede is used with Assurance, springs are used.
    242: MoC is used, assurance will line up with it, springs miiiighttt last long enough. I could prob delay them a few seconds to ensure the line up.

    (etc)

  6. #186
    The Patient Thotor's Avatar
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    Dynamic updates : Murder of Crows, Barrage, Dire Beast, Stampede, Pet Attacks/Abilities
    On Hit/Application Snapshots : Serpent Sting, Glaive Toss, Cobra Shot, Kill Command, Lynx Rush, etc.
    source

    For trinkets, I am not too sure what you are asking. Assurance of Consequence is the main trinket used in pair with either Ticking Ebon Detonator (progressive agi buff) or Haromm's talisman (flat agi buff). The last other trinket available is Sigil of Rampage which also a flat agi buff (not considered viable)
    Renataki's Soul Charm (Heroic Thunderforged) from last tier is still somewhat viable as a replacement for TED/Haromm normal.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    Speaking as a spec who gains 3 dps per haste point (in reality 2 dps, lol 150% haste modifier) I'm glad I don't have to worry about this crap. :P

    Also, are there any commonly used agility trinkets this tier/last tier that either don't proc agility (mastery/etc), or proc stacking agility? I don't know offhand, my hunter is like ilevel 510 with a heroic boa, lol. It would matter, as if this is made the default line it may not use stampede that often for people with suboptimal trinkets, and I'll have to think of a creative way to make it work with those trinkets while not screwing up people with trinkets from tier. Also, would it even be worth using stampede with crit/mastery/haste procs?

    I'm gonna mess around with engineering, I bet there's a way to maximize engineering to make it better than other professions. A few questions for that:

    1: Does murder of crows/dire beast snapshot agility?
    2: Is it worth delaying rapid fire a few seconds to sync up with springs? Or is that too inconsistent?

    My initial idea: (I'm going to add/fix a dummy buff to the hunter on simcraft that pops up when stampede is being used. I think there is one already, but it has 100% uptime... not very useful.)

    actions+=/use,slot=hands,if=buff.stampede.up|(!cooldown.murder_of_crows.remains&(cooldown.stampede.r emains>60|trinket.stat.agility.cooldown_remains>60))|(cooldown.murder_of_crows>60&cooldown .stampede.remains>60)

    So springs will be used if stampede is up, if the cooldown on murder of crows is up (so it will be used in the next second) and the cooldown on stampede OR the cooldown on the ICD trinket is more than 60 seconds away, or it will just be used if both MoC/stampede are >60 seconds away.

    How it will work on a fight:
    01~: Stampede/Springs are used ( assurance has procced, 115 icd)
    02~: MoC
    61: MoC is slightly more than 60 seconds away, so springs are used.
    122: MoC/Springs are used, most likely assurance will have procced sometime in the last 5 seconds.
    182: Springs are available, but are delayed as the CD on stampede is ready, and the ICD on assurance is <60 seconds.
    230~ish: Stampede is used with Assurance, springs are used.
    242: MoC is used, assurance will line up with it, springs miiiighttt last long enough. I could prob delay them a few seconds to ensure the line up.

    (etc)
    1. Does murder of crows/dire beast snapshot agility? - No, each attack is dynamicaly updated, not sure however how that interacts with factors like server lag and aura delays. What you should however look into, is delaying crows to cover up 20 seconds of its duration with AoC.
    2. Very inconsistent, depending on current haste / build , you will have RF up at very different times.

  8. #188
    Alright, put it all up.

    https://code.google.com/p/simulation...b4b2ed93aa1795

    Notes:
    * Engineering ended up winning out over alchemy by a rather hefty amount (500-600 dps? I think)
    * I added the same stampede lines to MM/SV as they were dps increases as well.
    * I also added a 'fake' buff to track stampede. buff.stampede.up will check to see if your zoo is at work, it made the action list a lot simpler to work with.

    (Red means deleted, green is added.)

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    Alright, put it all up.

    https://code.google.com/p/simulation...b4b2ed93aa1795

    Notes:
    * Engineering ended up winning out over alchemy by a rather hefty amount (500-600 dps? I think)
    Not really surprising. Even with AOC, synapses line up with a decent amount of your BW's/other CDs.

  10. #190
    does that mean, we are delaying KC for DB and KS?

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by nocfg View Post
    does that mean, we are delaying KC for DB and KS?
    Correct. However, just remember that almost all of the gains from the action list changes came from better syncing of stampede with trinket procs, which is something that a lot of hunters were already doing anyway.

  12. #192
    High Overlord kano's Avatar
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    I just have AoC heroic, was using it with ebony detonator normal warforged, but last night I got Harroms trinket heroic warforged (coin roll)
    Now I'm not sure what to do, either use the new on or just bank it... Or go survival ( but I prefer bm to be honest)
    Any tips would be welcome

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by kano View Post
    I just have AoC heroic, was using it with ebony detonator normal warforged, but last night I got Harroms trinket heroic warforged (coin roll)
    Now I'm not sure what to do, either use the new on or just bank it... Or go survival ( but I prefer bm to be honest)
    Any tips would be welcome
    Defo use the new Haromm's.

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  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Not really surprising. Even with AOC, synapses line up with a decent amount of your BW's/other CDs.
    I am curious if engineering still holds a lead in Simc with regular heroic upgraded Assurance, given that we'll have slightly different cooldowns and the way that the new SimC Heroic BM profile prefers Synapse Strings above almost everything else with no modifier checks (it's not really trying to lineup with the best buffs right now). If in WoD we have this cooldown modifier on gear, Engineering may be one of those professions that requires specific cooldown breakpoints to hit for maximum dps from Engineering, and that not hitting those might leave it lower than other professions' passive benefits. Sure, it could be a little bit more interesting to theorycraft, but once we find out those breakpoints, it will be basically done. I haven't really had a chance to check out latest Simcraft code and try this out though.

    The code diff for anyone curious about which changes were actually made to the profile:
    https://code.google.com/p/simulation...r_BM_T16H.simc

    The synapse string usage is line 29 and is only superceded by potion usage if Stampede is up or if the fight is almost over.

    Out of curiosity, was a priority order with KC > KS ever attempted? That order was established on Simc pre-5.4.2. My breakdowns on FD show KC is about 30k on average higher than KS in damage per execution without crit, 60k with. It probably won't make much of a difference because they're so close in prioritization in the current list.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    I am curious if engineering still holds a lead in Simc with regular heroic upgraded Assurance, given that we'll have slightly different cooldowns and the way that the new SimC Heroic BM profile prefers Synapse Strings above almost everything else with no modifier checks (it's not really trying to lineup with the best buffs right now). If in WoD we have this cooldown modifier on gear, Engineering may be one of those professions that requires specific cooldown breakpoints to hit for maximum dps from Engineering, and that not hitting those might leave it lower than other professions' passive benefits. Sure, it could be a little bit more interesting to theorycraft, but once we find out those breakpoints, it will be basically done. I haven't really had a chance to check out latest Simcraft code and try this out though.

    The code diff for anyone curious about which changes were actually made to the profile:
    https://code.google.com/p/simulation...r_BM_T16H.simc

    The synapse string usage is line 29 and is only superceded by potion usage if Stampede is up or if the fight is almost over.

    Out of curiosity, was a priority order with KC > KS ever attempted? That order was established on Simc pre-5.4.2. My breakdowns on FD show KC is about 30k on average higher than KS in damage per execution without crit, 60k with. It probably won't make much of a difference because they're so close in prioritization in the current list.
    I'll try it out again, I can't remember all the different things I tried. My guess is that KS > KC ensures that the kill-shot reset mechanic is taken advantage of, which leads to (numbers out of my ass) 10% more KS and only 1-2% less KC. KS is also a free ability, unlike KC which costs 40 focus. DPET is an important number, but DPF should also be taken into account.
    Last edited by CollisionTD; 2014-02-21 at 12:11 AM.

  16. #196
    So there is a lot of beast mastery discussion in this thread. So rather than start a whole new thread, I'll run the risk of sounding like an idiot here and ask this:

    At my current 574 iLevel, with the Haste >= Mastery > crit build, and pet damage being such a key thing, am I still using Focus Fire once it's safe to (BW duration just ended) or should I just let my pet keep the extra haste? I tried finding the information elsewhere and failed. Like I said, I could be an idiot right now. But I just want to maximize damage.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryas View Post
    So there is a lot of beast mastery discussion in this thread. So rather than start a whole new thread, I'll run the risk of sounding like an idiot here and ask this:

    At my current 574 iLevel, with the Haste >= Mastery > crit build, and pet damage being such a key thing, am I still using Focus Fire once it's safe to (BW duration just ended) or should I just let my pet keep the extra haste? I tried finding the information elsewhere and failed. Like I said, I could be an idiot right now. But I just want to maximize damage.
    It probably deserves a discussion but in the end it's not a huge deal.

    The thing is, once you got the 4pc and all, you'll be doing 20% (from 5 stacks of BW) + 10% from the buff itself damage, while your pet will "only" be doing 20% + 4-6% (depending on how many stacks you get), and with damage output pretty much being 50-50 (including Dire Beast which makes it more like 55-45 favoring the hunter), the hunter will be doing more damage than the pet for more than half the duration of Bestial Wrath - so what I do is use Focus Fire when there's 4-5 seconds left of my Bestial Wrath to ensure (or well, almost ensure) that I get an empowered Wild Hunt within the BW duration in the worst case scenario (the pet casting its basic at the 4s mark leaves one more basic in the BW which I hope to empower (50+ focus is 100% more dmg)).

    This way I get the best of both worlds - I have the pet damage for when it is doing the most damage (when it has 20%, I have 10% with no built stacks), but turn the tables halfway in when I am sitting with 30% damage done, and the instant focus from Focus Fire giving my pet a chance to do a hard-hitting Bite/Claw/Smack before BW ends.

    To me that seems like a logical way to do it, but one could argue that you don't wanna spend a non-damaging global in Bestial Wrath - so one would have to find out whether a 30%-increased Arcane Shot (prolly 160k dmg with my gear non-crit? Don't know tbfh), is worth more than a 100% more damaging pet basic attack which is not even guaranteed + the extra attacks you get off as a result of the haste bonus). I haven't researched this fully (it's not a priority to me with DPS mostly being an RPPM-game these days), though.
    Last edited by Azortharion; 2014-02-24 at 06:25 PM.

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  18. #198
    I agree with you on DPS being a bit of an RPPM game. I also debate whether to use FF during BW w/ about 4 seconds left of leaving it up. I've been trying it out week to week on different fights different ways. However, with proc rates and what not it can be tough to tell sometimes.

    And while I appreciate your input, I was thinking more along this wave length: with my almost 62% mastery and my pet dealing so much of my damage, should I just leave the frenzy stacks on my pet and let him enjoy the haste the entire fight? Or is it still worth using Focus Fire so we enjoy the haste?

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryas View Post
    I agree with you on DPS being a bit of an RPPM game. I also debate whether to use FF during BW w/ about 4 seconds left of leaving it up. I've been trying it out week to week on different fights different ways. However, with proc rates and what not it can be tough to tell sometimes.

    And while I appreciate your input, I was thinking more along this wave length: with my almost 62% mastery and my pet dealing so much of my damage, should I just leave the frenzy stacks on my pet and let him enjoy the haste the entire fight? Or is it still worth using Focus Fire so we enjoy the haste?
    Still wanna use Focus Fire - you can test these things yourself by just removing the Focus Fire line in SimCraft. It's a 14k DPS loss with my gear and I'm at fairly high mastery too.

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  20. #200
    Duh, don't know why I didn't think of that. Appreciate it.

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