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  1. #21
    Fluffy Kitten Lohe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutnbrg View Post
    I dont like the argument of being rewarded for failing...
    How are they rewards? If anything they're failsafes.

  2. #22
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultramini View Post
    Staying alive as a mage is also very easy.We are the only dps class in the game that can take lethal damage 2 times in a row (iceblock + cauterize) without drop below 50% health.In case of miss positioning,the glyph of rapid displacement allow us to get out of trouble very quickly as well.

    I agree with the self-healing capabilities of the warlock but the mage is a more errors permissive class,very easy to stay alive even when you fuck up.
    Like I said, we're good at cheesing (avoiding) huge-hitting mechanics, but only a couple of them (though more than anyone else). Outside of those, such as constant AoE damage, we don't have the means to stay alive.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by gutnbrg View Post
    I dont like the argument of being rewarded for failing...
    If you still die when no failling is involve,that would mean that the raid CD/healing rotation is poorly manage and the raid die long before you do due to our damage immunity (ice block),damage reduction(shield) and last stand (cauterize).You can't heal throught fatal raid damage as a warlock and even if you can that would be pointless because the vast majority of the raid die to that.

    Like I said, we're good at cheesing (avoiding) huge-hitting mechanics, but only a couple of them (though more than anyone else). Outside of those, such as constant AoE damage, we don't have the means to stay alive.
    Yeah but non-avoidable constant AoE damage need to be heal.If a mage die to that,others class will die long before we do and that will be a wipe so this isn't a concern in raid.In Solo pve or pvp yes but not in raid.We can even have a total immunity to all damage for 20 sec if we want with double ice block.Sure we won't be able to do any damage but we will survive.
    Last edited by ultramini; 2014-02-02 at 05:04 AM.

  4. #24
    Bloodsail Admiral Dutchmagoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaman View Post
    First off, this needs to stop. There is plenty of things a Mage can do better. Damage done is one of them,
    This is simply not true. There's like 2 fights in all of SoO (Malkorok and Iron Juggernaut, possibly Thok) where mages can compete with damage done/dps with warlocks.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchmagoz View Post
    This is simply not true. There's like 2 fights in all of SoO (Malkorok and Iron Juggernaut, possibly Thok) where mages can compete with damage done/dps with warlocks.
    Doesn't Blatty from method stays most of the time ahead of the methods warlocks? I mean, I'm no heroic raider but I saw them raiding this week and his damage was very consistent on the top 5, it was mostly between Blatty, fragnance, a hunter and a rogue. Or at least that was the impression I had. enlighten me if I'm wrong, please.

  6. #26
    Fragnance and Blatty are ridiculously good though. And I do mean ridiculously. And Feral is still the spec with the highest skill cap, particularly on single target. Honestly I think it's more a matter of skill than class for the difference in their logs. Rogues also perform extremely well at near-BiS on single target and hunters are overall very solid. The thing is that warlocks are easier to play, have a lot of survavibility/utility without sacrificing anything and perform extremely well in LITERALLY every possible situation.

  7. #27
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Only time I experience warlocks beating me is when there's multidot and they're outside cleave range.

    I can't keep up unless NT can cleave. On single target I generally win.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Microchaton View Post
    Fragnance and Blatty are ridiculously good though. And I do mean ridiculously. And Feral is still the spec with the highest skill cap, particularly on single target. Honestly I think it's more a matter of skill than class for the difference in their logs. Rogues also perform extremely well at near-BiS on single target and hunters are overall very solid. The thing is that warlocks are easier to play, have a lot of survavibility/utility without sacrificing anything and perform extremely well in LITERALLY every possible situation.
    Nice to read that skill do matter a lot. If you don't mind, may you talk more about why are they so ridiculously good? I'm a new player, trying to learn from better players.

  9. #29
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionheart-rad View Post
    Doesn't Blatty from method stays most of the time ahead of the methods warlocks? I mean, I'm no heroic raider but I saw them raiding this week and his damage was very consistent on the top 5, it was mostly between Blatty, fragnance, a hunter and a rogue. Or at least that was the impression I had. enlighten me if I'm wrong, please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Microchaton View Post
    Fragnance and Blatty are ridiculously good though. And I do mean ridiculously. And Feral is still the spec with the highest skill cap, particularly on single target. Honestly I think it's more a matter of skill than class for the difference in their logs. Rogues also perform extremely well at near-BiS on single target and hunters are overall very solid. The thing is that warlocks are easier to play, have a lot of survavibility/utility without sacrificing anything and perform extremely well in LITERALLY every possible situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Only time I experience warlocks beating me is when there's multidot and they're outside cleave range.

    I can't keep up unless NT can cleave. On single target I generally win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lionheart-rad View Post
    Nice to read that skill do matter a lot. If you don't mind, may you talk more about why are they so ridiculously good? I'm a new player, trying to learn from better players.
    See, the problem with all of these comments is that these are all subjective/personal experience based.

    Want proof Warlocks are winning?

    25H http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/
    10H http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/
    25N http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/
    10N http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/

    Feel free to look at top parses too.

    Yeah we're close, but we still don't come close enough to them, plus all the self/raid utility they get. Guys, stop trying to fight it because there's not much you can do. Yeah we might be better on some specific fights, but overall, they just win. Best thing we can do is hope to fuck they actually nerf locks and keep us at a fairly decent level in comparison (in damage, ways to damage, and self & raid utility), otherwise, we'll continue to have this whole "Why be a Warlock/Mage if you can be a Mage/Warlock?" argument going to the end of time.

  10. #30
    Damn, judging from these forums you almost wouldn't believe that in virtually every tier in the game mages have been topping the charts reliably, have access to a required raid buff (bloodlust) and don't have some of the best mobility of any DPS class in the game, if not the best.
    The moment mages aren't ahead of every other class in the game it's a travesty and suddenly the class has no reason for existing. It's pretty funny.

    OP, mages are still one of the most solid DPS in the game, and they still trounce pretty much every class in single-target and in burst when actually played correctly, and have reliably been at or near the top of the meters almost every tier since the game's creation, which is something warlocks cannot say. If you stick to the class, stick to it because you enjoy it, because balance fluctuates; as a mage you're pretty much never, ever going to be benched for playing a mage.
    A lot of casters have serious issues as a freshly dinged 90, moonkins are downright tragic in fact. Do LFR/Flex celestials weekly and hope for tier pieces, the fact that you're actually paying attention to meters means that you'll probably outperform half of the raid in LFR so don't worry that much about it. If it's similar to my experience gearing fresh 90 casters, with a couple tier pieces and an up-to-date weapon you'll notice a sharp spike up in damage.

  11. #31
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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  12. #32
    Well that's a solid answer, thanks for the graphs.

  13. #33
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aakarshan View Post
    Damn, judging from these forums you almost wouldn't believe that in virtually every tier in the game mages have been topping the charts reliably, have access to a required raid buff (bloodlust) and don't have some of the best mobility of any DPS class in the game, if not the best.
    The moment mages aren't ahead of every other class in the game it's a travesty and suddenly the class has no reason for existing. It's pretty funny.

    OP, mages are still one of the most solid DPS in the game, and they still trounce pretty much every class in single-target and in burst when actually played correctly, and have reliably been at or near the top of the meters almost every tier since the game's creation, which is something warlocks cannot say. If you stick to the class, stick to it because you enjoy it, because balance fluctuates; as a mage you're pretty much never, ever going to be benched for playing a mage.
    A lot of casters have serious issues as a freshly dinged 90, moonkins are downright tragic in fact. Do LFR/Flex celestials weekly and hope for tier pieces, the fact that you're actually paying attention to meters means that you'll probably outperform half of the raid in LFR so don't worry that much about it. If it's similar to my experience gearing fresh 90 casters, with a couple tier pieces and an up-to-date weapon you'll notice a sharp spike up in damage.
    I don't think anyone was ever claiming Mages were underperforming, we're just underperforming compared solely Warlocks (at least I was).

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Only time I experience warlocks beating me is when there's multidot and they're outside cleave range.

    I can't keep up unless NT can cleave. On single target I generally win.
    Dude, I don't even know how to respond to you on this, like normally I agree with almost everything you say but this really makes have to beg the question....

    "Are you sure your warlocks are playing their class as good as you are at playing your mage?"

  15. #35
    I'm sort of okey that warlocks are beating us on dps this expansion, figured a nice token to get their pop up. I was not okey with all the extra tools they have, it's also much harder to nerf that in next expansion. Blizzard seems to have a tendancy to set design guidelines and than break them making that newly developed thing popular by it being so much better. Kind of similiar to heroic scenario greater reward but not challenge mode dungeon.
    Although blizzard has mentioned that Warlocks dps was extremely good in Cataclysm but still the warlocks population didn't increase. And there is certainly a voice of mages rerolling because they don't enjoy it since MoP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    See, the problem with all of these comments is that these are all subjective/personal experience based.

    Want proof Warlocks are winning?

    25H http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/
    10H http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/
    25N http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/
    10N http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/

    Feel free to look at top parses too.

    Yeah we're close, but we still don't come close enough to them, plus all the self/raid utility they get. Guys, stop trying to fight it because there's not much you can do. Yeah we might be better on some specific fights, but overall, they just win. Best thing we can do is hope to fuck they actually nerf locks and keep us at a fairly decent level in comparison (in damage, ways to damage, and self & raid utility), otherwise, we'll continue to have this whole "Why be a Warlock/Mage if you can be a Mage/Warlock?" argument going to the end of time.
    I'm slowly stepping away from raidbots even if it's still the best we got. Mainly because I see such huge diffrence between the start of a new raid tier and later on. It's also because i'm starting to question at what stage should the classes be balanced the most (others matter as well). Is it not the most important to balance classes on their performances during kill attempts and their first 3 kills? Shouldn't classes be balanced around normal clear as well?

    In our raids for example and elemental shaman and enhancement are often on the top, but I might be slightly muddled because chainlightning might just be too good making any fight where that has high use be auto win for them. Which means they are the only class with a clear strenght niche.

    Really starting the think mages need some DPS help on lower skill levels and earlier itemlvl.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The OP seems to mostly talk about solo pve. And I have to agree that mages are one of the weakest there now a days, some mobs that can be slowed and stunned mages have some advantage over certain other specs. But even then it;s an advantage that is not as good as the best soloers for that specific mob.

    It's kind of ironic over the course of the expansions mages has lost a lot of it's advantages and nieches for the sake of balance but soloing was never a concern making the mage overall weaker than many other classes. And they are right that soloing isn't the most important thing, but mages should really get a look at it because the diffrence is extremely huge.

  16. #36
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldvibes View Post
    Dude, I don't even know how to respond to you on this, like normally I agree with almost everything you say but this really makes have to beg the question....

    "Are you sure your warlocks are playing their class as good as you are at playing your mage?"
    Of course they're not, duh.

    A warlock at my skill level would wash the floor with me. But, what I'm saying is... if you want to feel like you're on top, just play with people who do less DPS than you.

    And if you want to kill bosses, stop worrying so damn much about numbers when we're all viable to meet the DPS checks.


    PS: Frost numbers are low on raidbots because there are still hundreds of them out there that do things incorrectly.

    Also in Akraen's world, you'd get a straight up perma ban for linking raidbots. You know better Polar, seriously. Want to subtract Asian parses? How about cheesed logs with < 1 min kill times? Whenever I see raidbots linked, I grind my teeth. It's the second dumbest thing to happen on these forums after linking Noxxic.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Of course they're not, duh.

    A warlock at my skill level would wash the floor with me. But, what I'm saying is... if you want to feel like you're on top, just play with people who do less DPS than you.

    And if you want to kill bosses, stop worrying so damn much about numbers when we're all viable to meet the DPS checks.


    PS: Frost numbers are low on raidbots because there are still hundreds of them out there that do things incorrectly.

    Also in Akraen's world, you'd get a straight up perma ban for linking raidbots. You know better Polar, seriously. Want to subtract Asian parses? How about cheesed logs with < 1 min kill times? Whenever I see raidbots linked, I grind my teeth. It's the second dumbest thing to happen on these forums after linking Noxxic.
    I've been away from the game for a while so I was wondering if Raidbots must have buffed themselves or something because they were a trash link when I played. Nothing but cheese as you say.

    To the OP,

    Locks are more fleshed out as a class. Specs feel more intuitive, better design etc. However, I do great damage on both. When I'm on my mage I tent to hang with them pretty ok (cept for protectors, aff >>>>).

    In general though, the lock is harder to play well for each spec than the mage specs (imo). I mean, if a lock has green fire and you're not geared I wouldnt expect to out damage him. That quest is such a skill check and most locks I see (inccluding myself) with the fire tend to rock meters due to execution alone.
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  18. #38
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Also in Akraen's world, you'd get a straight up perma ban for linking raidbots. You know better Polar, seriously. Want to subtract Asian parses? How about cheesed logs with < 1 min kill times? Whenever I see raidbots linked, I grind my teeth. It's the second dumbest thing to happen on these forums after linking Noxxic.
    Except if you filter it correctly and know what you are looking at, it is very useful. There are just as big a percentage of Fire Mages and Arcane Mages doing things incorrectly. And unless you are looking at top 100, which is pretty much useless, that shouldn't matter.

  19. #39
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Except if you filter it correctly and know what you are looking at, it is very useful. There are just as big a percentage of Fire Mages and Arcane Mages doing things incorrectly. And unless you are looking at top 100, which is pretty much useless, that shouldn't matter.
    That's not remotely true because the filters you need don't exist.

  20. #40
    Stood in the Fire Deithy's Avatar
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    Ok here is my oppinion on the matter.

    First i play with 574ilvl arcane turret in 25man raid setup.
    Our guild have 4 warlocks, 2 better than the other 2 and outgearing me with 1-2 ilvls.
    There is one more Arcane mage in our group, he is outgearing me with 2 ilvls.
    I swear to god i never had so much fun competing with 3-4 other casters for top places on the metter, but i havent really been severely outdpsed by a warlock(that can happen only on two cases witch ill describe below). :P

    First and main culprit and what my little expirience in SoO hc taught me its called AR EN... wait for it... wait for it... GI! /mindblown
    Second is not so important and implies human error, like me not watching where are my mana levels, did i steped/casted my rune, did i properly snapshoot dots etc etc :P

    The said AR EN GI is more punishing for the arcane mage compared to warlock, yet again we, as some people said, have one of the best mobility in the game, but this doesnt help us a lot to keep up with warlocks witch almost don't suffer from moving...
    If AR EN GI gods are mercyful and we dont get targeted by boss shizzles or AR EN GI gods wanna show us some love and show their wrath to the warlocks, then we the mages can manage to outdps the warlocks with fairly big margin. Yet again there are ofcourse exceptions of the rules where on "even luck" with the lock we still manage to outperform them :P

    In my oppinion in SoO how YOU will perform is totaly in tight ties with the AR EN GI - no targeted by boss mechanis = win first place on dpsmetter, targeted several/all the times = fail. This is especialy true about the fights witch Dutchmagoz said (thok,jugg,malk) - in these fights there is never same result, every week is diffrent.

    And i really cant see why people still look at these charts in WoL, RaidBots etc. This is totaly shit because its only 1 fight... not like - 50 fights. I mean come on guys. Once someone got the favor of the AR EN GI gods and he does amazing dps, witch then is recorded in some site where everybody post their logs after each raid night... and what? I bet most of these people who ranked on top 10 places havent managed to accomplish the same result again...

    As i said as how fights work nowdays with all the diffrent mechanics you have to deal with and the rng element implemented with them you own performance is totaly dependant if you get targeted by mechanic that wil force to move(or do some mage trick to avoid it) and also on everybody's else performance too, no matter will it be warlock, rogue or warrior. Fight to fight your results will vary as much as the rng decides to and as much as your raidmates allow you to.

    Summary i think mages and warlocks are quite even and no i dont care what proof people will "show" me ,because in my eyes they are not such. As i said many times above - there is too much RNG involved in everything to take it for a constant...

    @OP - if you feel like "underperforming" warlock i envy you mate. I really do. Because if i have felt like one i would be happy, because it would be a reason to push myself further :P

    My many cents x)
    Last edited by Deithy; 2014-02-04 at 02:46 PM.
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