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  1. #61
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zandiy View Post
    Ye which means his point is invalid
    No, my point is all your arguments are futile. You keep approaching the community with pitchforks and resentment.

    If you're unable to do enough damage to justify your raid slot, that's your problem.

    Warlocks having a higher top-end is not news to anyone, it's been that way all expansion. Big deal. Point is, you can still compete or beat *most* warlocks that you encounter, or at least be similar to them.

    I consider my warlock buddy Ludox to be very highly skilled, though not necessarily as padding and sniping focused as a lot of locks out there with ridiculous parses. I compete with him well-- beat him quite often as described in my other post.

    What I see out of a number of people in this thread is a rationalization for bad play in general. So quit whining and learn how to play better. Post your parses and I'll help you out by pointing out all your inefficiencies and failures. That's not a spiteful remark, I honestly help people in this community, not just chalk up low DPS to some other class being better designed. Or here's a thought, maybe you should all at least hit 100th percentile once on a fight before you complain about another class. Kind of foolish to whine about your potential DPS when you've yet to reach maximum.

    I think it'd be best for any "warlocks are better lol" post to be locked as soon as its made.

  2. #62
    Fluffy Kitten Lohe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    We don't even hold the title of "Best Restoration Symbiosis Partner"! Deterrence from Hunters is the exact same thing, except they can move and it's a significantly shorter cooldown.

    Now if you don't have a Hunter, then I guess we're the next bext thing...
    Ice Block works on a lot more things than deterrence does. Regardless, it was meant as a joke.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    No, my point is all your arguments are futile. You keep approaching the community with pitchforks and resentment.

    If you're unable to do enough damage to justify your raid slot, that's your problem.

    Warlocks having a higher top-end is not news to anyone, it's been that way all expansion. Big deal. Point is, you can still compete or beat *most* warlocks that you encounter, or at least be similar to them.

    I consider my warlock buddy Ludox to be very highly skilled, though not necessarily as padding and sniping focused as a lot of locks out there with ridiculous parses. I compete with him well-- beat him quite often as described in my other post.

    What I see out of a number of people in this thread is a rationalization for bad play in general. So quit whining and learn how to play better. Post your parses and I'll help you out by pointing out all your inefficiencies and failures. That's not a spiteful remark, I honestly help people in this community, not just chalk up low DPS to some other class being better designed. Or here's a thought, maybe you should all at least hit 100th percentile once on a fight before you complain about another class. Kind of foolish to whine about your potential DPS when you've yet to reach maximum.

    I think it'd be best for any "warlocks are better lol" post to be locked as soon as its made.
    Believe me, there are also a fair lot of us mages who bring 110% every night and constantly hover within 93-98 percentile and are just left disgusted and sad that also believe that our class is just simply not as good as any warlock that can play their class at our respective level or if said fights have something to Havoc cheese.

    Just because you or anyone one of us can beat the warlock in our respective guilds from time to time doesn't change the fact they are whatever we do but better and more efficent.

  4. #64
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldvibes View Post
    Believe me, there are also a fair lot of us mages who bring 110% every night and constantly hover within 93-98 percentile and are just left disgusted and sad that also believe that our class is just simply not as good as any warlock that can play their class at our respective level or if said fights have something to Havoc cheese.

    Just because you or anyone one of us can beat the warlock in our respective guilds from time to time doesn't change the fact they are whatever we do but better and more efficent.
    If you're 93-98th percentile then you have no reason to be concerned. In fact, be proud. Why do people get so upset about things they can't change?

  5. #65
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    If you're 93-98th percentile then you have no reason to be concerned. In fact, be proud. Why do people get so upset about things they can't change?
    I think it's just a psychological thing with Warlocks that has been going on since BC. There is a strong rivalry between the two classes since they are so similar. Any advantage one has over the other gets blown way out of proportion. I'll be the first to admit, I have been guilty of this a time or two.

  6. #66
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    While I was a raid leader, it made me happy when people performed well, even if that meant outperforming or outgearing me. When I was just a raider I was quite competitive with everyone, not only warlocks. It is a psychological thing, but I call it a trap. Remember the point of the Norushen encounter in the current raid and then remember what the Sha of Pride keeps telling the players during the encounter. This has actually been a very educational expansion heh.

    My point is that there's no need to be petty when comparing classes or performance. Legitimate issues and concerns most often do not coincide with the issues and concerns of the average player, myself included of course. That's why we have these forums, not to measure epeens or cry to each other, but to have a collection of "the average players" and use their experience to discover and analyze the legitimate issues. And for the last few years we've always been circling around utility, mobility and spec differentiation. I don't think that there's any point in discussing pure dps potential at this moment.

  7. #67
    I've said in other threads that, damage aside, warlocks are... "better."

    I'm talking from a design point. Arcane feels alright and frost is pretty fun (FL Frost with 4pcT12 was better imo), but none of our specs feel as fleshed out as say, demo.

    I'd like to see mages retooled or at least adjusted so the specs arent tuned around the same debuffs and maintenance buffs. I think blizz understands that we are in a stale design state as well.

    As far as damage...no I think we're about equal with locks, though rng is more punishing for us in general.
    "We all cry for something different. However, when something different really does come along, we just want something familiar." Dakia, SW:TOR Forum Mod.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Styxz View Post
    I've said in other threads that, damage aside, warlocks are... "better."

    I'm talking from a design point. Arcane feels alright and frost is pretty fun (FL Frost with 4pcT12 was better imo), but none of our specs feel as fleshed out as say, demo.

    I'd like to see mages retooled or at least adjusted so the specs arent tuned around the same debuffs and maintenance buffs. I think blizz understands that we are in a stale design state as well.

    As far as damage...no I think we're about equal with locks, though rng is more punishing for us in general.
    The thing is, as previously stated in this thread, even if Warlocks were equal or slightly less on us on DPS, they would still have guaranteed raid spots in a 10m setting, due to... a battle res, lock rocks and gateway, and that is still excluding their own personal things.

    Literally as a mage, we bring NOTHING but damage. If you had to bring a mage or a shaman for 30% raid haste, you would almost always bring the shaman nowadays because shamans bring stormlash, -3- buffs and heroism.

    Also, if you flashback to the beginning of ToT, the reality of no mages being brought ever due to gutting our DPS actually happened. So yes, all we have is our damage.
    Last edited by Coldvibes; 2014-02-09 at 04:12 AM.

  9. #69
    I can't decide between megalomania or narcissism.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldvibes View Post
    The thing is, as previously stated in this thread, even if Warlocks were equal or slightly less on us on DPS, they would still have guaranteed raid spots in a 10m setting, due to... a battle res, lock rocks and gateway, and that is still excluding their own personal things.

    Literally as a mage, we bring NOTHING but damage. If you had to bring a mage or a shaman for 30% raid haste, you would almost always bring the shaman nowadays because shamans bring stormlash, -3- buffs and heroism.

    Also, if you flashback to the beginning of ToT, the reality of no mages being brought ever due to gutting our DPS actually happened. So yes, all we have is our damage.
    Thank god this argument will be gone with WoD and 20 man raiding.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryva View Post
    Thank god this argument will be gone with WoD and 20 man raiding.
    Not sure how much will change unless extremely drastic changes are going to happen with warlocks.

  12. #72
    It's a shame so many of you are incredibly focused on what other classes are doing, that I feel a lot of mages forget what makes this game satisfying to play.

    I've been a mage through all vanilla, tbc etc. To mix it up a bit, I went warlock for 5.0 through 5.2 but in some way or another I always felt like I kind of missed my mage. It felt so easy to get good dps on a warlock, all the while not even coming close to dieing due to 5.2 Soul Leech and a warlock's natural max HP. A warlock's mechanics don't feel very dynamic, very reliant on resource management and without any procs to throw you a curveball every once in a while.

    Coming back to a mage in 5.3, I felt very happy with the playstyle (even though as well as you all, I'm not a fan of the 90 talents). Playing a mage is riskier than a warlock, our defensive cooldowns require more planning and thought, we adjust our fight second by second according to the procs we get and in the end I feel very satisfied when doing well on mage, whereas I thought "meh" and pulled up my shoulders in disregard as a warlock. It's a lot easier to do well on a warlock, but easy does not equal fun for me. I love mage and always will
    Last edited by Knupzz; 2014-02-09 at 01:35 PM.

  13. #73
    Aren't evryone saying the same thing? Mages are fine from a casual point of view, but not strong enough to when it comes down to min-maxing.
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  14. #74
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Styxz View Post
    I'd like to see mages retooled or at least adjusted so the specs arent tuned around the same debuffs and maintenance buffs. I think blizz understands that we are in a stale design state as well.
    We've made it clear to them, but they have said next to nothing on the issue. Take a good look how light the Mage-Related Information is in the 6.0 thread, and how much more expansive the General/Caster information is. It worries me greatly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mishh View Post
    Aren't evryone saying the same thing? Mages are fine from a casual point of view, but not strong enough to when it comes down to min-maxing.
    Both of these are actually wrong.

    Mages are HORRIBLE from a casual PoV because Arcane and Fire REQUIRE high gear to even perform decently, and we're fine when it comes to min-maxing. We're not upset about geared damage, we're upset about ungeared damage and pretty much everything else besides when we're geared.

  15. #75
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    We've made it clear to them, but they have said next to nothing on the issue. Take a good look how light the Mage-Related Information is in the 6.0 thread, and how much more expansive the General/Caster information is. It worries me greatly.
    I actually saw a tweet from one of the devs, (can't remember who) responding to someone asking about the 90 Mage talents. He said they are well aware of how the Mage community feels about them and finished with a wink emote. Take from that what you will.

    Edit: found it Celestalon ‏@Celestalon Feb 4
    @nemo2501 We're not ready to share details about class changes yet, but we've definitely heard the complaints about Mage 90 talents.
    Last edited by Methusula; 2014-02-09 at 08:00 PM.

  16. #76
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    I actually saw a tweet from one of the devs, (can't remember who) responding to someone asking about the 90 Mage talents. He said they are well aware of how the Mage community feels about them and finished with a wink emote. Take from that what you will.
    Yeah but I also keep hearing rumors that they'll just be "tweaked". Most of us don't want them tweaked, we want them abolished!

    I'm aware there's definitely a fair bit of people who actually do enjoy some of the talents (lookin' at you, Voltaa! XD), but the majority is pretty unanimous that they want a fun/awesome L90 talent, not an annoying maintenance buff that's forced on you just to be viable. Hopefully an entire expansion later, they realized (one of) their huge blunder(s) that caused a crash in Mage popularity, especially during early ToT.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Both of these are actually wrong.

    Mages are HORRIBLE from a casual PoV because Arcane and Fire REQUIRE high gear to even perform decently, and we're fine when it comes to min-maxing. We're not upset about geared damage, we're upset about ungeared damage and pretty much everything else besides when we're geared.
    Min-Maxing =/= Geared. During progress, my guild and most others who competed for first kills brought more Warlocks than Mages because Warlocks were able to deal more damage, could handle mechanics easier and could combat ress. During 10m we didn't even bring a Mage because other classes were more usefull.
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  18. #78
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    And that's a thng that happens exclusively in world or server first races. Guilds that don't compete for those really do bring players and not classes (to a degree of variety of course).

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Start what exactly? I wasn't saying Mage was hard. But the fact remains that we have to jump through hoops Locks don't. When you design a class/spec, you need to be cognizant of how it makes people feel. There are restrictions for Mage that make myself and at least a vocal minority feel punished rather than rewarded. Warlock design feels like it has a lot more freedom and flexibility to me.

    Having said all that, I have little doubt the two classes will see changes in WoD that address this. We just have to hope something else doesn't break as a result.
    You really notice that the community is much smarter now in how they react to obstacle class mechanics (low movement dps, lvl 90 talents). Rather than see it as a reward when your able to overcome such obstacle they see the obstacle as a punishment. Why? because when your able to overcome the obstacle your rewarded with doing the same dps as other classes. And this issue has come up more as blizzard has improved their balance and disregarded hybrid tax, because in the past you did get rewarded by it. Another factor is the reduction in raidsize reducing the chance of meeting fellow mages you can compare with.

    I imagine other classes have this as well. And now it basically comes down to who has the most obstacles, annoying obstacles are probably most important here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    No, my point is all your arguments are futile. You keep approaching the community with pitchforks and resentment.

    If you're unable to do enough damage to justify your raid slot, that's your problem.

    Warlocks having a higher top-end is not news to anyone, it's been that way all expansion. Big deal. Point is, you can still compete or beat *most* warlocks that you encounter, or at least be similar to them.

    I consider my warlock buddy Ludox to be very highly skilled, though not necessarily as padding and sniping focused as a lot of locks out there with ridiculous parses. I compete with him well-- beat him quite often as described in my other post.

    What I see out of a number of people in this thread is a rationalization for bad play in general. So quit whining and learn how to play better. Post your parses and I'll help you out by pointing out all your inefficiencies and failures. That's not a spiteful remark, I honestly help people in this community, not just chalk up low DPS to some other class being better designed. Or here's a thought, maybe you should all at least hit 100th percentile once on a fight before you complain about another class. Kind of foolish to whine about your potential DPS when you've yet to reach maximum.

    I think it'd be best for any "warlocks are better lol" post to be locked as soon as its made.
    Really depends on context, if you talking about pure balance than responses of seeing it as a challenge etc are irrelevant and give the signal of balance is irrelevant. On the otherside being all negative and not improving yourself is also the wrong attitude.

    Both sides can be stupid depending on the context and personal perspective.

  20. #80
    The Patient Keldaryne's Avatar
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    Warlock = Corrupted Mage, that uses Fel Magic, and enslaves Demons.

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