Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ...
3
4
5
6
LastLast
  1. #81
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    (USA) Florida
    Posts
    7,371
    Quote Originally Posted by Mishh View Post
    Min-Maxing =/= Geared. During progress, my guild and most others who competed for first kills brought more Warlocks than Mages because Warlocks were able to deal more damage, could handle mechanics easier and could combat ress. During 10m we didn't even bring a Mage because other classes were more usefull.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    And that's a thng that happens exclusively in world or server first races. Guilds that don't compete for those really do bring players and not classes (to a degree of variety of course).
    ^

    I was just referring to our problem lying in other areas. World First Race guilds will always stack/pick what's the best, even if it's by 50DPS. In this specific case though, there were definitely times where Mages were beating Warlocks, but were barely brought because of a plethora of other reasons. I'm simply saying our geared DPS is fine. Our ungeared DPS is at downright unacceptable levels (hence why we're a terrible "casual" class, yet we have the easiest rotation/skillcap. GO FIGURE). Our self utility is okay (though could be better), and our raid utility is 0 (unless you really count Time Warp because there are no useful Shamans nearby). The worst offender being our Quality of Life, which is so far in the gutter that I don't even have a good enough analogy to use at a time like this.

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
    BTag: Polarthief#1411 (I'll only accept with notice/name is recognizable)

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Dinko1989 View Post
    Well, it's probably just you. Check out Noxxic:

    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings

    Or I should add - switch to Frost and learn how to play your class. No Warlock will ever surpass you.
    Why are you linking noxxic. No seriously why. Their Simcraft rankings are so far off its not even remotely funny. Dont take this seriously OP

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Both of these are actually wrong.

    Mages are HORRIBLE from a casual PoV because Arcane and Fire REQUIRE high gear to even perform decently, and we're fine when it comes to min-maxing. We're not upset about geared damage, we're upset about ungeared damage and pretty much everything else besides when we're geared.
    I'm curious, are there any casual players in these forums? I'd consider myself one, but if I'm honest with myself, I'm probably not that casual (on account of posting on the forums, and reading theorycrafts)

    And the thing is, in casual raid, it doesn't really matter that much. We raid, we laugh, we have fun, we gripe. We might even jokingly grumble about another class about being OP, but none of actually threatens to quit over doing slightly less damage. Time and RL responsibilities are a bigger factor IMHO. Heck, our core raid group now fields 2 mages and no warlocks.

    The point is, there's a good chance that most of the posters here don't really know what casual players feel like, and if there's any chance that most casuals feel like me, it'd mean more people are fine with mages than you think.

  4. #84
    Currently there are quite a view casuals here but they have a more critic viewpoint.

    Casual is too broad a word that confuses people. Ussually hardcore is defined as a more critic view on the matter while casual is a more shallow view. A casual player can have a more critic view on the matter and likes to analyse and optimize his gameply. Unfortunatly shallow sounds offensive, but it's natural that at one subject is more critical about while the other subject their more of a critic.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    And that's a thng that happens exclusively in world or server first races. Guilds that don't compete for those really do bring players and not classes (to a degree of variety of course).
    I'm sorry, but I view the situation differently. Raiding is competivite content by nature, so naturally it pushes you to be the best you can.. and while it usually means maxing your characters, that bleeds towards guild structures quite often. Rarely to a point where classes have heavy favouring over players, but that does still happen quite often at least in the top 250 guilds in the world. And I would venture a guess that most of the posters here are in a top250 guild or have been.

    Now sure the counter argument is that 50 dps probably ain't going to make or break anything, but for the purist min-maxers, that is all it takes.. And it's just part of the game.

    In the end, if the guild cares about it's status it's safe to say, they expect the best out of everyone. They try to recruit more strong classes, they try to get the best players. If you are a skilled mage, then sure you are pretty golden, as a skilled player probably has room in guilds, but for those mediocre players, not being a Warlock as a ranged dps.. well you can guess the rest. And it's not only that Warlocks are strong, but people are saying they are OP, even people not knowing what makes Warlocks strong, will want a warlock over a Mage nowdays. World ain't fair and having a leg up on someone usually means you are going to get chozen.

  6. #86
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    SC, USA
    Posts
    2,126
    Mediocre players need to care about what race/class they are because numbers are the only things keeping them in a raid.

    It's the real personalities you gotta watch out for, raid leading, being the social glue that lets guilds work-- where do those dudes get off showing up to raid as a Night Elf frost mage. I mean seriously.

  7. #87
    I wonder how many posters are in or have been in top 250 guilds on mmo-c. It'd be an interesting poll.

    I've never been in one myself. Did heroic progression during most of wrath and FL in Cata.

    In any case, I don't believe the issues we have are so much about our damage as they are about our design. If blizz says they'll fix, fine.

    Someone posted about giving us a mana well. I'd be down for that. Couldn't hurt to make mage food buff a secondary stat, like multistrike or readiness, by about 1% and also stack with main food buffs.

    /shrug
    "We all cry for something different. However, when something different really does come along, we just want something familiar." Dakia, SW:TOR Forum Mod.

  8. #88
    I agree, we should give Replenishment again =P

  9. #89
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    (USA) Florida
    Posts
    7,371
    Quote Originally Posted by nickseng View Post
    I'm curious, are there any casual players in these forums? I'd consider myself one, but if I'm honest with myself, I'm probably not that casual (on account of posting on the forums, and reading theorycrafts)

    And the thing is, in casual raid, it doesn't really matter that much. We raid, we laugh, we have fun, we gripe. We might even jokingly grumble about another class about being OP, but none of actually threatens to quit over doing slightly less damage. Time and RL responsibilities are a bigger factor IMHO. Heck, our core raid group now fields 2 mages and no warlocks.

    The point is, there's a good chance that most of the posters here don't really know what casual players feel like, and if there's any chance that most casuals feel like me, it'd mean more people are fine with mages than you think.
    I know DPS doesn't quite matter in a casual raid, but at the same time, Mage isn't, well, fun. Our QoL is downright terrible, on TOP of if you're not geared pretty well, you'll be doing shit (decent as Frost, but you'll still get outDPS'd by a ton of other classes).

    If you really find Mage fun, go right ahead. I'm just saying it's very hard to have fun with Mage if you want to play correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Mediocre players need to care about what race/class they are because numbers are the only things keeping them in a raid.

    It's the real personalities you gotta watch out for, raid leading, being the social glue that lets guilds work-- where do those dudes get off showing up to raid as a Night Elf frost mage. I mean seriously.
    Because 5% Damage and Berserking. There's a difference between a tiny increase and a good 10-15% damage boost.

    I mean, fuck. I'm willing to bet Combustion was overnerfed because of Trolls.

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
    BTag: Polarthief#1411 (I'll only accept with notice/name is recognizable)

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    I know DPS doesn't quite matter in a casual raid, but at the same time, Mage isn't, well, fun. Our QoL is downright terrible, on TOP of if you're not geared pretty well, you'll be doing shit (decent as Frost, but you'll still get outDPS'd by a ton of other classes).

    If you really find Mage fun, go right ahead. I'm just saying it's very hard to have fun with Mage if you want to play correctly.
    *shrug*
    I wasn't really arguing if mage was *fun* for you or anybody else, just that it might not be the majority that thinks like the forum communities. It irks me when people claim *all* or *most* mages find mages not fun. I mean, really, how would you know?

  11. #91
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    (USA) Florida
    Posts
    7,371
    Quote Originally Posted by nickseng View Post
    *shrug*
    I wasn't really arguing if mage was *fun* for you or anybody else, just that it might not be the majority that thinks like the forum communities. It irks me when people claim *all* or *most* mages find mages not fun. I mean, really, how would you know?
    I mean yeah, I can't really claim that as all I can claim are people who speak up. This is why it would be extremely advantageous to have in-game surveys at times when it feels necessary. For example: Blizzard gets an overwhelming amount of "X sucks and needs to be changed" posts (for the sake of this argument, let's assume X is the L90 Mage talents). Now while one-already-quit-ghost-like-crab would just claim "silent majority" and shrug this off, they could instead implement a survey for hot topics like this, and request user data from every single L90 Mage during the course of, let's say, 2 weeks. If you don't log on your L90 Mage within those 2 weeks, you wouldn't even know the survey existed. If you did, you would log in your character and be greeted with a window, asking for your feedback via multiple choice answers, and maybe a small text box for comments. This way, there would be ZERO way to claim "silent majority" when they're actually doing something about the silent majority issue and not just shrugging it off because it seems like people dislike it. Instead, they just push things as long as they can and give into forum posters.

    I know that most people don't frequent the forums if they're happy (therefore you get very few people who actually do enjoy the aspects of Mage coming here to comment about it), which is why they need some form of in-game census survey for this. If they're not going to make the effort to collect data, we're always going to have some bullshit area like this.


    Anyways, that's my late-night rant for the week, so enjoy. I seemed to have forgotten what I was replying to halfway through the post, but I'm gonna post it anyways >_>;

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
    BTag: Polarthief#1411 (I'll only accept with notice/name is recognizable)

  12. #92
    Well, in my case, locks cant reach me in raids. I am 562 frost mage, and have a lock 564 in team, and i pretty much smash his dps. You need good trinkets and 4set to be able to do dps on frost, 2 set for fire, dunno for arcane.

  13. #93
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    SC, USA
    Posts
    2,126
    /shrug

    I'd argue that I could enter almost any guild, intentionally do less DPS than everyone else, but retain my spot or even gradually take over the guild.

    Success in WoW (is there such a thing?) is best created through charisma rolls, that stat just isn't on our character sheet.

  14. #94
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    (USA) Florida
    Posts
    7,371
    Quote Originally Posted by Donci View Post
    Well, in my case, locks cant reach me in raids. I am 562 frost mage, and have a lock 564 in team, and i pretty much smash his dps. You need good trinkets and 4set to be able to do dps on frost, 2 set for fire, dunno for arcane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    /shrug

    I'd argue that I could enter almost any guild, intentionally do less DPS than everyone else, but retain my spot or even gradually take over the guild.

    Success in WoW (is there such a thing?) is best created through charisma rolls, that stat just isn't on our character sheet.
    These are all player-specific instances. We're referring to the raw math behind Warlock and Mage DPS, with it tipping towards Warlock, however, that's assuming everything goes perfectly and according to the followed-through plan. Mage is significantly easier to play (especially Fire and Mastery or Mixture Frost), so you'll typically see the average Mage doing more than the average Warlock, assuming equal gear. It's when you get to the high-end (The-0.0001%-DPS-matters) level, that's when you see the clear distinction that Warlocks are above us on DPS, but again, that's not why Mages are upset.

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
    BTag: Polarthief#1411 (I'll only accept with notice/name is recognizable)

  15. #95
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    SC, USA
    Posts
    2,126
    All I can say to that is: duh

    I don't know why this topic is still going on. It's like complaining about how the sun rises every morning and sets every evening.

  16. #96
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    (USA) Florida
    Posts
    7,371
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I don't know why this topic is still going on. It's like complaining about how the sun rises every morning and sets every evening.
    Ask Donci why he bumped a 2w+ thread. I simply responded because I felt that what he (and you) said had nothing to do with the actual topic at hand as to why we "feel like underperforming Warlocks". I understand and acknowledge both of your points, but I'm just saying it's like barking up a tree and the cat's in the tree three trees over. Yes, you're still doing the action you want, which in this case is barking up trees (discussing Mages), but it's simply the wrong tree at the wrong time.

    ... Best analogy I can come up with I suppose.

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
    BTag: Polarthief#1411 (I'll only accept with notice/name is recognizable)

  17. #97
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    1,303
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    These are all player-specific instances. We're referring to the raw math behind Warlock and Mage DPS, with it tipping towards Warlock, however, that's assuming everything goes perfectly and according to the followed-through plan. Mage is significantly easier to play (especially Fire and Mastery or Mixture Frost), so you'll typically see the average Mage doing more than the average Warlock, assuming equal gear. It's when you get to the high-end (The-0.0001%-DPS-matters) level, that's when you see the clear distinction that Warlocks are above us on DPS, but again, that's not why Mages are upset.
    That's weird because I find Destro to be significantly easier than any of the Mage specs. I know Affliction and Demo are a bit more complicated, but Destro has an exceptional dps/difficulty ratio.

  18. #98
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    SC, USA
    Posts
    2,126
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Ask Donci why he bumped a 2w+ thread. I simply responded because I felt that what he (and you) said had nothing to do with the actual topic at hand as to why we "feel like underperforming Warlocks". I understand and acknowledge both of your points, but I'm just saying it's like barking up a tree and the cat's in the tree three trees over. Yes, you're still doing the action you want, which in this case is barking up trees (discussing Mages), but it's simply the wrong tree at the wrong time.

    ... Best analogy I can come up with I suppose.
    Don't try to do analogies, not your thing lol. But yeah you're right. I just think this is exhausted.

    Why do you feel like an underperforming warlock? Because you are. End of topic.

    We're worse, we just are. All around worse. But there are some silver linings to mage and we're not bad by any stretch of the imagination. So just keep that in mind and keep on truckin' until we get some beta. I theorize most mages will prefer playing on beta for its entire duration, because that'll be enjoyable compared to what's currently on live.

    I intend to make a guild the moment I get on beta. If you want in my guild to do mage testing and whatever else we're able to do as beta progresses, let me know. I'm hoping my Icy Veins mod status and a few other connections get me in there pretty early. Lots of testing to do and I want to get the best and most motivated minds out there to go over every aspect of each spec and talent in as many situations as possible to provide the most detailed feedback devs have ever had.

    I will not let mages go into WoD like how they went into MoP. Join me and help, or I'll only be pushing frost really. I'm counting on others to help with the other two specs.

  19. #99
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    (USA) Florida
    Posts
    7,371
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    That's weird because I find Destro to be significantly easier than any of the Mage specs. I know Affliction and Demo are a bit more complicated, but Destro has an exceptional dps/difficulty ratio.
    Destro is easy, but nothing's easier than Fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Don't try to do analogies, not your thing lol. But yeah you're right. I just think this is exhausted.
    I'm aware I'm shit at analogies XD

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Why do you feel like an underperforming warlock? Because you are. End of topic.

    We're worse, we just are. All around worse. But there are some silver linings to mage and we're not bad by any stretch of the imagination. So just keep that in mind and keep on truckin' until we get some beta. I theorize most mages will prefer playing on beta for its entire duration, because that'll be enjoyable compared to what's currently on live.
    Word for word, cannot be said better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I will not let mages go into WoD like how they went into MoP. Join me and help, or I'll only be pushing frost really. I'm counting on others to help with the other two specs.
    Let's hope it doesn't happen again. Let's hope NO ONE gets blindsided by the talent revamp and still pushes for an overhaul to Fire as well, and maybe some hefty tweaks to Arcane, too.

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
    BTag: Polarthief#1411 (I'll only accept with notice/name is recognizable)

  20. #100
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Rijeka, Croatia
    Posts
    1,977
    Or we can just light up our torches, pick up our pitchforks and this time scream "Akraen! Akraen!" instead of "Lhivera! Lhivera!" like last time. The similarities are plenty - Lhivera plays Frost, Akraen plays Frost. Lhivera is active on forums, so is Akraen. Lhivera told us to trust him, Akraen wants us to trust him too.

    Too many coincidences. I don't think you should be in charge of leading mages for WoD because all you'll do is beg for water elemental cosmetic updates and tell everyone that Arcane is fine because you're jealous.

    There I think I covered everything

    Edit: sorry to the people who weren't here so they don't know these let's say jokes I'm of course not insulting anyone, just remembering some fun times.
    Last edited by Shangalar; 2014-03-01 at 12:56 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •