Discontinue WF/TF idea in WoD please

[IKT]

Allegedly it's to remove "extra unneccessary steps" every time you get a new item (ie. dumbing down)

Had nothing to do with dumbing down, it was extra steps for players to equip their new gear, it lessened the impact of getting new gear, instead of being happy and equipping your new gear and having fun with your new found power, you have to get gems for it, then enchant it, then reforge it usually using an addon, that's 3 extra steps involved instead of just equipping it, which is the primary purpose of getting gear... to be equipped.

Frequently new gear is sitting in players bags because they didn't want to bother with all the crap. I was watching Sco from Method's stream last night and he mentioned he's still using mastery gems because he hadn't bothered changing to parry/dodge.

Secondly how the fuck can you dumb down something that they added after the game started? Was Vanilla dumbed down? I don't recall reforging and regemming thunderfury and that was a god damn legendary.

[Marxman]

You also misunderstood the point. Way back one upon a time BiS wasn't an expectation like it is now. The hardcore base has been spoilt like the casuals have in that regard.

That wasn't because of player mentality. It was because you had 39 other people competing for drops, and you got what, 3 items from a 40man boss? 3-4 in the BC 25 raids? Loot was much, much more scarce back then, thus everyone got less of it. Loot rains from the freakin' sky these days, so the expectation of most cutting edge players is that *eventually* they will have the best gear. WF/TF/Tertiary RNG poops on that idea. It adds RNG to an aspect of the game that is already extremely RNG-based. It's superfluous, frustrating, and the benefits of it (extending the time period that farm bosses are entertaining) is nowhere near worth the negatives. Farm is always boring, loot or not.

Making that BiS gear INCREDIBLY rare, and the gains from it so huge (extra ilvls, an extra stat, and a socket!) is just bad design. It doesn't feel great to get a bonus roll, it feels terrible to *not* get a bonus roll. Just like with WF today. It's awesome when I finally roll that WF BIS piece I've wanted for 3 months. The other 20 weeks and 10 coins I used to get it? It was frustrating and obnoxious. That outweighs the 20 minutes of "yay!" from winning the lottery.

[Deleted]

Well no just no. It is here to stay.

First people forget that the item level is so high that actualy getting WF/TF items is upgrade, even tho not that big.
Second people also forget that there will be made item level squish so getting Xforged item wount be such big deal.
Third people forget that each item slot have stat "budget" and stats will be reworked to a degree where crit~mastery~haste in terms for weight(atleast that the objective) and the rule is that it cannot be exceeded. So getting diffrent stats on wf+socket item wount be much of a diffrence.

The actualy point of Blizzard making the items like that is so to try kill that "BiS list" crap thing and to give players incetive to continue raiding farm content, not just stop raiding after they deck out in full BiS.

With this design people will start trying to get decks for the diffrent scenarios that WoD encounters may offer (heavy cleave fights, dps race fights, heavy movement fights, etc, etc). Overall it should be more rewarding to get diffrent item each reset even if its not your theoretical BiS item. All stat combos will find their uses one way or another not like not with the current rule "WF or GTFO"

[kamuimac]

it lessened the impact of getting new gear, instead of being happy and equipping your new gear and having fun with your new found power, you have to get gems for it, then enchant it, then reforge it usually using an addon, that's 3 extra steps involved instead of just equipping it, which is the primary purpose of getting gear... to be equipped.

Frequently new gear is sitting in players bags because they didn't want to bother with all the crap. I was watching Sco from Method's stream last night and he mentioned he's still using mastery gems because he hadn't bothered changing to parry/dodge.

Secondly how the fuck can you dumb down something that they added after the game started? Was Vanilla dumbed down? I don't recall reforging and regemming thunderfury and that was a god damn legendary.

- it lessens it only for weak players - good players will still be as picky as they were instead now instead going for correct reforges and gems will be checking if your raiders are gearing up accordingly to their bis list - this extra addon which helped u with reforging and geming will be now helping u with your gear bis lists nothing will change there exept it will be dumbed down so random idiots ddont stand out that much as they are atm. it a move to create illusion for idiot players that they are gearing up correcly

- people who have content on farm often dont bother to optimize totaly cause they dont have to - those who are still progressing are and will be optimizing ton of shit regardless of anything

- yes vanilla was very much dumbed down well its incoreckt ot say it was dumb down caue omething which is fresh didint have anythign to be dumbed down from -_- it wa much easier then current raids are the only hard thing was geting 40 people around and scremaing at them so that not more then 15 of them were going afk during fights -_- boss mechanics were much simpler then anything which we have now - only aspect which was harder then nowadays was lvling up and lower lv dungeons -_-

[Raiju]

That wasn't because of player mentality. It was because you had 39 other people competing for drops, and you got what, 3 items from a 40man boss? 3-4 in the BC 25 raids? Loot was much, much more scarce back then, thus everyone got less of it. Loot rains from the freakin' sky these days, so the expectation of most cutting edge players is that *eventually* they will have the best gear. WF/TF/Tertiary RNG poops on that idea. It adds RNG to an aspect of the game that is already extremely RNG-based. It's superfluous, frustrating, and the benefits of it (extending the time period that farm bosses are entertaining) is nowhere near worth the negatives. Farm is always boring, loot or not.

Making that BiS gear INCREDIBLY rare, and the gains from it so huge (extra ilvls, an extra stat, and a socket!) is just bad design. It doesn't feel great to get a bonus roll, it feels terrible to *not* get a bonus roll. Just like with WF today. It's awesome when I finally roll that WF BIS piece I've wanted for 3 months. The other 20 weeks and 10 coins I used to get it? It was frustrating and obnoxious. That outweighs the 20 minutes of "yay!" from winning the lottery.

^ example of spoilt.

[Ealyssa]

Farm is always boring, loot or not.

Then don't do it ????

God that amaze me. Blizzard try to give some incentive to extend the "fun" part of looting. If you don't like it, just wait for next tier. You don't have to be full WF to start next tier. And in WoD being in BIS before tier +1 will be nearly impossible.

Play for fun, stop playing for loot.

[Deleted]

Had nothing to do with dumbing down, it was extra steps for players to equip their new gear, it lessened the impact of getting new gear, instead of being happy and equipping your new gear and having fun with your new found power, you have to get gems for it, then enchant it, then reforge it usually using an addon, that's 3 extra steps involved instead of just equipping it, which is the primary purpose of getting gear... to be equipped.

For the players who want to min/max these new changes are not going to help AT ALL. Simming your character will become much more prevalent with all these small item upgrades (Xforged gear for instance) and secondary/tertiary stats.

Then don't do it ????

God that amaze me. Blizzard try to give some incentive to extend the "fun" part of looting. If you don't like it, just wait for next tier. You don't have to be full WF to start next tier. And in WoD being in BIS before tier +1 will be nearly impossible.

Play for fun, stop playing for loot.

I presume that you raid alone then?

[Dnusha]

Do not Discontinue WF/TF idea in WoD please.

[Dristereau]

All of these things are, in short, a way to keep you raiding the current content for longer.

[Zka]

Allegedly it's to remove "extra unneccessary steps" every time you get a new item (ie. dumbing down)...

Dumbing down? Really? Last time I checked, people were not making choices in reforging. They just repeated the choices they had. I need haste, then I'll get haste gear if possible, and reforge to haste. Whoa. Most people don't even make a stat choice, just blindly follow the supposedly optimal askmrrobot or something like that.

[Consata]

All of these things are, in short, a way to keep you raiding the current content for longer.

Im currently 2 items from full BiS for SoO. When i get these items i wont stop raiding, ill start trying to get ranks. I find great enjoyment from competeing within my class once were all close to BiS, seeing just who is the better player of each class is great fun and a goal that you can always work towards. Getting more items with "rare stats" that will be better then the same item but without or with another "rare stat" just makes the whole "proving whos the best" rng dependent and not skill dependent. If there is a cleave fight then the guy with the most cleave on his gear will have a massive advantage compared to someone who just has the item. Getting full WF right now is pain enough alone, adding more rng to getting bis is just stupid as we will never be able to see who is the very best, just who had the better luck that tire.

[SlippyCheeze]

Im currently 2 items from full BiS for SoO. When i get these items i wont stop raiding, ill start trying to get ranks. I find great enjoyment from competeing within my class once were all close to BiS, seeing just who is the better player of each class is great fun and a goal that you can always work towards. Getting more items with "rare stats" that will be better then the same item but without or with another "rare stat" just makes the whole "proving whos the best" rng dependent and not skill dependent. If there is a cleave fight then the guy with the most cleave on his gear will have a massive advantage compared to someone who just has the item. Getting full WF right now is pain enough alone, adding more rng to getting bis is just stupid as we will never be able to see who is the very best, just who had the better luck that tire.

There is enough RNG in, say, proc times and effect placement that you are not competing on a level playing field anyhow. Personally, I see a huge variance in my eDPS in spoils as frost depending on RNG: open boxes that have lots of the little dogs, and my eDPS is significantly higher than if we get boxes with the single mogu statues, just because my cleave pads better on the dogs.

[Consata]

Even more reason to not add even more rng elements to it then.

[Tziva]

Personally I love the War/Thunderforged concept. It's nice to have a chance at surprise upgrades even when killing a boss you have everything you want from, and it was a good solution to the how-to-reward-25s-without-hurting-10s dilemma.

Honestly, this seems like a problem with perspective. They are supposed to be a nice bonus, not as obligatory. The reason they should not be seen as obligatory is precisely because they are rare and random. If you view them like items on your grocery list rather than as surprise presents from the game, of course you're going to be disappointed. You min/max around your standard gear, and if you have a few supplemental WF, then great.

Is having WF pieces a big help? Absolutely. But the game isn't tuned around the idea of people having them, so I don't think that really matters.

[Paula Deen]

Honestly my only issue will be if they make WF a Normal, Heroic, Mythic thing...... it needs to be only for Mythic..... it is causing massive power creeps and it needs to only cause the creep on 1 setting not 3.... or instead of being inconsistent like they were in Pandaria they could make it so Warforged gear is in some cases better than normal tier gear for the next tier. Think 522 Normal Gear for a Tier and the Tier before having 522 Mythic Warforged Gear... that could also fix the issue.

[Louis CK]

Although the thought of getting a TF item in ToT or a WF item in SoO has been an entertaining one, watching another hunter (obv my main is a hunter) coin 7 HWF BiS items while I cant coin 1 HWF BiS item is frankly BS. I'm sure there is many many stories where people have been in like situations. Thanks RNG. It really adds up and affects Min/Max when there difference is so great between players. to reflect, coining=good idea. WF/TF=bad idea; it makes me feel like what I have is garbage.

Seems like a bad reason to do away with it. I like the idea of having something to look forward to. Even when I have an item, I can look forward to getting an even better one as a perk.

Sure, RNG sucks sometimes, and missing out on loot consistently and/or seeing someone else get lucky kind of sucks... But honestly, if they do away with WF, you're going to be in the same spot when you have the Normal version and the Heroic version just.won't.drop!

I also like the idea of the "randomness" to be expected in WoD. It adds a flavor and certain expectation to doing the same fights over and over.

[Archimand]

Who cares about 10-25 Heroic? Heroic in WoD is normal in MoP, normal in WoD is flex in MoP. So, honestly now, who really cares about "heroic" raids in WoD?

who care about heroic raids? the ppl that run them obviously ....


seriously some ppl >_>

[Fitsu]

Although the thought of getting a TF item in ToT or a WF item in SoO has been an entertaining one, watching another hunter (obv my main is a hunter) coin 7 HWF BiS items while I cant coin 1 HWF BiS item is frankly BS. I'm sure there is many many stories where people have been in like situations. Thanks RNG. It really adds up and affects Min/Max when there difference is so great between players. to reflect, coining=good idea. WF/TF=bad idea; it makes me feel like what I have is garbage.

It's not like you need WFed gear in order to clear the content, it's just something extra for those who have cleared everything to strive for because without WFed getting full BiS is very quick once all content is farmable and there's nothing more to aim for, for the many months to come before the next content patch. I don't see how it makes your other gear feel like garbage, I mean it's not that huge of an upgrade someone in full hc wfed will likely sim about 2% higher than someone without I feel like your exaggerating the difference. Last but not least, your actually mad that your team mate got lucky with gear? Well that one is just beyond me, i've never felt anything but joy when my team mates get lucky with gear because if they improve the raid dps goes up and if the raid dps goes up that's good for you right, even if that wasn't the case though I just can't imagine being mad at somebody for being lucky with loot...

So yeah, imo WFed is a great idea as it gives those who clear content months in advance something to still strive for but isn't such a huge upgrade that it makes a noticeable effect on the raid performance. If your mad that team mates are getting lucky with loot then that's a problem with yourself not the game >_> as this should be a good thing.

[Deleted]

My chances of getting 1 piece of item via coin is like 1 every 9 coins and ofcourse i get the balls>
1 F...ing patch not coined a single item ...Upgrade> Boss has 2 items>> getting same item every time i use a coin>
Perhaps gonna see the item once i'm gonna get on >Wod

[Consata]

it was a good solution to the how-to-reward-25s-without-hurting-10s dilemma.

Yes, but we are talking about for WoD here where the now heroics will be Mythic and only 20man.

Honestly, this seems like a problem with perspective. They are supposed to be a nice bonus, not as obligatory. The reason they should not be seen as obligatory is precisely because they are rare and random. If you view them like items on your grocery list rather than as surprise presents from the game, of course you're going to be disappointed. You min/max around your standard gear, and if you have a few supplemental WF, then great.

My perspective is that it was implimented so that people would still have some kind of reason to raid once progress was done. The way WF works now i dont mind to much, if you get a bit of luck you can still get really close to BiS (thats full wf outside of tire) and thus compete in the ranks within your class which is a massive reason as to why many hardcore raiders still do farm content.

Is having WF pieces a big help? Absolutely. But the game isn't tuned around the idea of people having them, so I don't think that really matters.

Like i said, in my opinion it was put in for people to keep farming the content once progression was done. The problem is they are expanding the system and likely making it impossible to get BiS meaning 75% of the reason i can be botherd to do farm content will be gone. I enjoy competition, but its all luck based if they take this system even further.

- - - Updated - - -

who care about heroic raids? the ppl that run them obviously ....


seriously some ppl >_>

His point was that the difficulty we now call Heroic will be what we now know as Normal.

- - - Updated - - -

So yeah, imo WFed is a great idea as it gives those who clear content months in advance something to still strive for but isn't such a huge upgrade that it makes a noticeable effect on the raid performance.

Im one of those people, and i dont strive to get full WF, i strive to prove that im one of the very best of my class out there. If that means i have to get a lot of WF pices then so be it, but i would prefer it to simpler to gear up so that ranks were more accurate.