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  1. #1

    Challenge Mode Difficulty

    I was speaking with a guildy today, he informed me that CMs have become significantly easier compared to x-pac release because of the increased number of sockets on gear. Also, I heard people use sha touched weapons with the gems, since they supposedly still give the bonus.

    I would guess people also have guides and other things that make the "challenge" part, a little less challenging.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So is this true?
    I'm gonna be trying these with guildies soon and would like to know.

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  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral Chrispotter's Avatar
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    Sha touched weapon bonus never worked iirc. Yes they are easier now with all the gem sockets but also because people found out the best places to use their cooldowns, where to invis, which packs you can avoid and all other things like that.
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  3. #3
    Fluffy Kitten Lohe's Avatar
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    While the sockets help they're not as big a deal as all the guides and the fact that many classes have been buffed significantly since the beginning of the expansion.

  4. #4
    Also, I heard people use sha touched weapons with the gems, since they supposedly still give the bonus.
    They don't. But still, with the increased number on sockets CMs are really easier than they were at the beginning of the xpac. We are probably able to 3man most of the gold timer if not all with 3 optimized char so yeah, give it a try.
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  5. #5
    The sha gem doesnt work. And yes the more sockets the easier it becomes.

  6. #6
    Brewmaster Kae's Avatar
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    Yeah we did a full clear of CMs for the first time in like 8 months, and although our performance was a lot slacker and we had more deaths and less efficiency than our good runs back when we were practising every day, our team shaved nearly a minute off all our previous times. It was kind of crazy. They're definitely easier now than they were, I imagine partly due to sockets as well as some class changes since then (my warrior having riposte helps a lot...)

  7. #7
    They are definitely a lot easier than at expac release. Half a dozen sockets (at least) is a huge amount of secondary's on scaled down gear. Also class buffs (just look at how arms warr's changed recently and they aren't the only ones)

    Sha touched weapons don't give the +500 bonus but you do get to put an extra socket on them.

  8. #8
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    While the sockets help they're not as big a deal as all the guides and the fact that many classes have been buffed significantly since the beginning of the expansion.
    some classes also got significantly nerfed in 463 gear.

    Overall they're easier though, yeah. I dare say anyone can do them now although I didn't try them before - the people I saw completing them were hardly pro's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  9. #9
    They feel easier, but I think it's a combination of being more familiar with the dungeons and additional gem slots rather than anything. The additional gem slots are pretty big boons, but keep in mind that we know tips and tricks that we didn't know at release.

    They were never mind blowingly hard.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonsaii View Post
    I was speaking with a guildy today, he informed me that CMs have become significantly easier compared to x-pac release because of the increased number of sockets on gear. Also, I heard people use sha touched weapons with the gems, since they supposedly still give the bonus.

    I would guess people also have guides and other things that make the "challenge" part, a little less challenging.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So is this true?
    I'm gonna be trying these with guildies soon and would like to know.
    I wasn't around for most of the xpac, so I haven't gotten to do them. I've been trying to find a group willing to run through them for Gold since I returned, just for the tmog. All the people who want them seem to have done them already and aren't willing to do them again.

    If you're Horde, and have a spot available, I'd love to run through them with you guys. IM me for my info if you want.

    Frost DK, although I'd be willing to tank them as well.

  11. #11
    Dreadlord Angrybathtub's Avatar
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    You can still easily do them with the initial 463 heroic gear. Maybe it's a bit easier because some raid gear has 2/3 gem slots, but it's not a huge difference. The reason they seem easier is because all the strategies for what to pull, when to invis/pre-pot, etc have been released to the general public.

  12. #12
    Just to expand on the gem argument, the sha gem will not work but the extra prismatic socket on your weapon(s) will work, and that's why using ToT weapons with sockets is pretty much your best option as far as challenge modes are concerned. There was also a bug with the scaling algorithm which made higher itemlevel items be slightly superior to lower itemlevel items a while back but that has been fixed.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrybathtub View Post
    You can still easily do them with the initial 463 heroic gear. Maybe it's a bit easier because some raid gear has 2/3 gem slots, but it's not a huge difference. The reason they seem easier is because all the strategies for what to pull, when to invis/pre-pot, etc have been released to the general public.
    The gems slots from raid gear at a guess account for 8-10% more stats. It is huge.

  14. #14
    CD Usage>Gear...you can still do find in crap 463s with no gems as long as you're using the right things at the right time.

  15. #15
    People overestimate the value of gems sockets. dont get me wrong gems > no gems but if you think challenge modes have become easier I'd look for another explanation. Gems are count towards the item budget even in challange modes, an item with more gems will have lower secondary stats inside a challange mode than an equivalent item with less gems. The advantage of gems comes mostly from the socket bonus (those are freebies) and the fact that you get to choose your stats. As a result if you have an item with 3 sockets but you are ignoring the bonus (e.g. the gem color sucks) and the secondary stats on that items sucks (e.g. you want crit/mastery and the item has haste/spirit) another item with better itemization albeit less sockets might outperform the one with more sockets. In any event having full gear with max socket comes to be about the equivalent of using 2 flasks or so, certainly a notable difference but probably not a game changer. I have "tested" this, with over 10 different toons that I've done challange modes with, I usually start with blue gear and upgrade it over time. My dps/performance has definitely increased, but not so dramatically as you would expect from 10-15 sockets difference (according to forums etc) and it is most definetly due to more practice with said class. My last toon was a frost mage and with 5-6 sockets and a 450 weapon (yes i know I also want to get rid of that ugly thing) im usually top dps, specially on aoe!)
    Reasons you might perceive challange modes easier now, probably arrises from players practice and knowledge of more effective strategies more than anything. Even if you do not have experience, your friend might, or the tank might, or the healer might, or at least you watched an strategy that is dozens of times superior to what people used 1 year ago.

  16. #16
    It's funny how people parrot stupid statements like 'CMs are so much easier because sockets' without even checking the fact that sockets are in items BUDGET so only thing they give you is freedom of stat pick for that socket and socket bonus (and the benefit is so small that you won't even notice any difference anyway. The only reason why CMs are easier now than at the start is because there are loads of guides/videos and little tricks and strategies that weren't discovered back then.

  17. #17
    CMs are solely about how the tank pulls, what you skip, what classes you bring, how you manage cooldowns. That's it. Stats aren't an issue unless you want server first titles, really.

  18. #18
    Bloodsail Admiral Luminoth4's Avatar
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    I think the amount of Gem Sockets help, but you still need to perform well to get Gold IMO. Then again I didn't do them early on, and only did them recently. I think the biggest Challenge for our Group was that I was tanking, having never tanked them before, and our healer was also new. However, two of the DPS had tanked/healed them before on their mains so we definately had a solid strategy. However our Group Comp (MW Monk, Prot Paladin, 2 x Lock and Rogue) meant no Heroism or Crit.

    Running through them now on my Mage with other People and Alts and it seems much easier with Hero.
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  19. #19
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melzas View Post
    It's funny how people parrot stupid statements like 'CMs are so much easier because sockets' without even checking the fact that sockets are in items BUDGET so only thing they give you is freedom of stat pick for that socket and socket bonus (and the benefit is so small that you won't even notice any difference anyway. The only reason why CMs are easier now than at the start is because there are loads of guides/videos and little tricks and strategies that weren't discovered back then.
    A socket on 463 gear is 160/1600 budget lets say. This means that 160 budget remaiins unchanged in CM's.
    A socket on 535 gear is 160/3200 budget lets say. This means that 160 budget becomes 80/1600 in CM's, but still gives you the same stats.

    I'm not totally clued up on whether this is taken into account (and if so - how), but even in your own example is an item with 2 sockets is 20-30% better secondaries than 1 with none because of the reforging point you made. 20-30% better secondaries you WILL notice. Massively.

    Most of those tricks were out to begin with, but there's a post showing that higher ilvl gear actually has more stats in CM's (lfr vs normal vs hc of same piece) - noticeably more once again.

    Thanks to chop below for digging and proving the example correct.
    Last edited by Raiju; 2014-02-05 at 01:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  20. #20
    Compare:

    http://www.wowhead.com/item=82822
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=96419

    Gravetouch:
    +899 Strength
    +1349 Stamina
    +626 Hit
    +555 Critical Strike

    Zerat:
    +819 Strength
    +1349 Stamina
    +612 Hit
    +453 Critical Strike
    Blue Socket +60 Strength Bonus

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