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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Most of those tricks were out to begin with, but there's a post showing that higher ilvl gear actually has more stats in CM's (lfr vs normal vs hc of same piece) - noticeably more once again.
    That thread is very very old and thats a bug that existed a long time ago (prior 5.4 release) that has since been fixed. Similar to the bug that allowed hybrid classes to zone in in their dps spec and since spirit for dpsers is not scaled (because of hit) when they switched back to heals they'd keep a massive amount of spirit. Again all of that is been fixed a long time.
    I believe you misunderstood my post, I never claimed that having more gems was not better. I merely stated that they are being given much more importance than the benefict they really bring.
    Let me give you a for isntance. I just zoned my toon into a cmode, and compared 2 items right now. Item 1 has 1 socket, item 2 has 2 socket. Item 1 got a total of 588 primary stats, 742 secondary stats while item 2 has 508 primary stats and 726 secondary stats with 2 gems. You can do the math but at the end you end up with 80 primary and 12 secondary extra stats on item 1 and 1 extra gem in item 2. If you consider the traditional 80 primary and 160 secondary for gem slot that means item 2 has 142 extra secondary stats, which is not bad at all but it is definitely not a deal breaker. Thats not all, it so happens that my item with 1 gem got 60 int socket bonus while the item with 2 gem slots got 60 spirit socket bonus, so the gap narrows even further! Thats not all. Lets just ignore socket bonus for an instant. What happens if the secondary stats on the item with less sockets are more favorable than the secondary stats on the item with 2 sockets? Thats something that can only be answered on a class/spec by simulation case there is no clear cut but the simple answer is that sometimes the item with better secondaries will win flat out even with lwoer gem sockets. In top of that, the gems colors might not be favorable at all. Now I just analyzed an extreme case. In reality, this late in the tier, its not so hard to find an appropriately itemized item with favorable colored gems but thats something reserved for people that want to min/max BiS for top times and such, the regular joe is not gonna do lfr 10times or flex 10times in the search of the crit/haste 3 red sockets belt etc.
    For normal cmode anything beyond 463 is about the same and any drop in difficulty you are experiencing is more likely to be due to more experience from players or superior strats.

    Actually Choptimus brings another good example. Lower item level got 80 more str and 116 more secondaries while item 2 got 1 extra socket and assuming u go for the bonus 60 secondary stats.
    So In theory, if you followed the socket bonus the item with the extra gem would end up having around 50extra secondary stats as a budget. Not bad but far from being a game changer. In this example both tiems have the same itemization, but thats not gonna be the case in all cases, in many cases you will have to choose considering 2nd stats value and the color of gems.
    Last edited by xoggyux; 2014-02-05 at 01:42 PM.

  2. #22
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
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    You are generalizing a 20-30% stat increase on items to "about the same". That's ridiculous.

    CM's should just have a standard set of gear, you could even call it CHALLENGER's Raiment, and that way this progressive easing is less noticeable. Sure class changes are always gonna screw it a bit and certain classes will be favoured but it's hardly much to ask a system designed to not get easier with gear, not get easier with gear.

    Oh and the post I was referring to was from today, not a long time ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by xoggyux View Post
    That thread is very very old and thats a bug that existed a long time ago (prior 5.4 release) that has since been fixed. Similar to the bug that allowed hybrid classes to zone in in their dps spec and since spirit for dpsers is not scaled (because of hit) when they switched back to heals they'd keep a massive amount of spirit. Again all of that is been fixed a long time.
    I believe you misunderstood my post, I never claimed that having more gems was not better. I merely stated that they are being given much more importance than the benefict they really bring.
    The gem bug made both people that understand stat budget and people that don't understand it claim that "the more gems you have, the easier it will be".
    Now that the bug has been fixed, the people that don't understand stat budget keep claiming so because they have no clue.

    Currently, gems only allow you to get a bit more of your best stat and a bit less of your worst stat. It's great, but far less important than it was during the bug.
    Warrior soloing spreadsheet.

    Ittle Dew (Any%): 12:13
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  4. #24
    Where did you get that 20-30% stat increase you are talking about... where is your math to support that?
    If the thread is current then it was started by somone living in the past. That was a known bug, and it was fixed.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    The gem bug made both people that understand stat budget and people that don't understand it claim that "the more gems you have, the easier it will be".
    Now that the bug has been fixed, the people that don't understand stat budget keep claiming so because they have no clue.

    Currently, gems only allow you to get a bit more of your best stat and a bit less of your worst stat. It's great, but far less important than it was during the bug.
    Are you even reading the posts in this thread? Choptimus even wrote down the exact stats of 2 weapons when they've been scaled down.

    with a hybrid strength gem you'd be looking at:

    +60str
    +44 secondary stats

    by using the ToT 2H vs using the dungeon 2H. Gems are important.

    Definitely agree with previous posts about them being completely blown out of proportion (hard to argue against that) but dont kid yourself, more gems makes dungeons easier

    Even if you compare the 2H BoA Axe from Garrosh vs Zerat youre looking at a numerically even trade (220 primary vs 216 secondary) but it's not hard to realize that 220 str is alot better than 216 secondary stats for most classes. This is ofc if you'd gem 2 bolds. If you'd instead gem 2 orange gems we're looking at +60 str and 104 secondary stats in favor of the weapon with 2 sockets
    Last edited by Dainwork; 2014-02-05 at 02:57 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dainwork View Post
    Are you even reading the posts in this thread? Choptimus even wrote down the exact stats of 2 weapons when they've been scaled down.

    with a hybrid strength gem you'd be looking at:

    +60str
    +44 secondary stats

    by using the ToT 2H vs using the dungeon 2H. Gems are important.
    Quote Originally Posted by Choptimus View Post
    Compare:

    http://www.wowhead.com/item=82822
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=96419

    Gravetouch: (FOUR SIX THREE)
    +899 Strength
    +1349 Stamina
    +626 Hit
    +555 Critical Strike

    Zerat: (FIVE THREE FIVE)
    +819 Strength -80 STR
    +1349 Stamina SAME
    +612 Hit -14 HIT
    +453 Critical Strike -102 CRIT
    Blue Socket +60 Strength Bonus
    So he gains taking into account the gem -20 STR and -14 HIT and -102 CRIT.

    wat
    Quote Originally Posted by cptaylor38 View Post
    Hope everyone is prepared for the 16 month wait for the expansion after this one.
    Date Posted: 20/8/14
    Review: 20/8/16

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Hi Turtle. According to your account records an authenticator was not attached to the account until after the compromise.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by IKT View Post
    So he gains taking into account the gem -20 STR and -14 HIT and -102 CRIT.

    wat
    What?

    This was taking into account the socketbonus and the addition of a hybrid, purple in this case, 80str+160secondary stat. Could have used a green gem for +320 secondary stat.


    Wait, just noticed you actually freaking added the itemlevels in capital letters. Are you really that dense? Wowhead has a nice little button that says 'CHALLENGE MODE' which will scale the item down. Or perhaps they might be wrong in their calculations, not home atm so cant verify.

    Edit: the more times I reread your post the less sense it makes. You never took into account the gem even though you said so. As I clearly said, a blue socket, if going for bonus, will be 80st,160 secondary, or 160+160 secondary.

  8. #28
    In the beginning of the expansion you had like 10-12 sockets
    Now you have 24+
    Aoe cap has been increased since 5.2(or 5.1?)
    tons of video guides

  9. #29
    Actually Dainwork assuming you gem with a blue str/hit gem (or any other primary/secondary combo) youd win 60 str 24 secondary (either hit/crit/exp/haste/mastery whatever) so it is only 60/24 benefict and this is an extreme case in which you gem for the same gem color to get the socket bonus and in which the 2ndary stats are the same. Even in this extreme case, you'd be looking at a 700-800 extra primary stat and about 200-300 secondary stat gain assumin the same is true for every single slot. Thats basically the difference between using and not using a flask. In reality though, the 2nd stats and gems ## you'd have to compromise a bit, and/or gems are not favorable color. Anyhow, lets just for the sake of argument say you manage to get a set with 100% your secondary stats with good gem colors and good socket bonus of 120 of your primary stats. you'd end up with ~2000k primary stats (thats absolute best case scenario of full BIS gear) which is about 2 flasks. definitely a nice advantage, and definitely something that could save up a few seconds on a cmode, but not for an instant say thats the reason cmodes are easier or will be easier or anything like that because of the fact that only a few that go for very top regional times even bother to go for those gears that will offer that can of extreme benefict. Even then, even if you manged to squeze 2k worth of stats with the VERY VERY VERY BiS that not such a huge advantage, think, when was the last time u saw your dps bumped a significant amount by just drinking a flask? Most of us "trust" that its better to use a flask, but very few can actually notice the difference in actual numbers.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Dainwork View Post
    Are you even reading the posts in this thread? Choptimus even wrote down the exact stats of 2 weapons when they've been scaled down.

    with a hybrid strength gem you'd be looking at:

    +60str
    +44 secondary stats

    by using the ToT 2H vs using the dungeon 2H. Gems are important.
    The algorithm used to scale down the items in CMs has been changed several times since MoP release. I haven't tested wowhead's algorithm for a while but last time I checked it wasn't up-to-date. I'll try it tonight at home.
    Anyway, you have to be careful while trying things in game since things like Hit/Expertise can mess up with your computations. Also, for some time the item scaling was computed as a whole, not item by item. IIRC, it's not the case anymore but if it were it would also be a reason why comparing two items is not enough to draw conclusion. Also, there remains some scaling bug (I think they broke Hit scaling again when trying to prevent the Hit exploit) so once again, you must be careful when you do your tests.

    But all-in-all, gems are supposed to bring slightly more versatility and that's all.
    I run CMs with 463ilvl char and 560ilvl char and the differences between the classes between the players are far more obvious than the difference between a char with socketless gear and one with a lot of sockets.
    Last edited by Senen; 2014-02-05 at 03:34 PM.
    Warrior soloing spreadsheet.

    Ittle Dew (Any%): 12:13
    Super Meat Boy (Any%): 21:50

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Dainwork View Post
    What?

    This was taking into account the socketbonus and the addition of a hybrid, purple in this case, 80str+160secondary stat. Could have used a green gem for +320 secondary stat.
    Ohhh

    Quote Originally Posted by Dainwork View Post
    Wait, just noticed you actually freaking added the itemlevels in capital letters. Are you really that dense?
    Yeah I was forgetting the name of the items and getting my ilvls messed up

    Quote Originally Posted by Dainwork View Post
    Wowhead has a nice little button that says 'CHALLENGE MODE' which will scale the item down.
    I did not know that! ty <3
    Quote Originally Posted by cptaylor38 View Post
    Hope everyone is prepared for the 16 month wait for the expansion after this one.
    Date Posted: 20/8/14
    Review: 20/8/16

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Hi Turtle. According to your account records an authenticator was not attached to the account until after the compromise.

  12. #32
    The Patient MyCelar's Avatar
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    Already 3 manned them all on gold with a good 2-3 minutes left on most of them. It's on youtube.
    http://www.twitch.tv/mycelar - Cheapest Challenge Mode boosts EU/US any faction! Send us a private Message HERE.

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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Dnusha View Post
    Aoe cap has been increased since 5.2(or 5.1?)
    Wow, didn't know that. Is this for real? Any link to a blue post, please?
    If it's true that would probably have been a far bigger nerf to CMs thant anything else discussed on this thread.
    Warrior soloing spreadsheet.

    Ittle Dew (Any%): 12:13
    Super Meat Boy (Any%): 21:50

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by MyCelar View Post
    Already 3 manned them all on gold with a good 2-3 minutes left on most of them. It's on youtube.
    Try doing that hardmode with random pugs. 9/9 gold, hardest was seige which took 7 hours of wiping on bombs before people got it.
    Last edited by IKT; 2014-02-05 at 03:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by cptaylor38 View Post
    Hope everyone is prepared for the 16 month wait for the expansion after this one.
    Date Posted: 20/8/14
    Review: 20/8/16

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Hi Turtle. According to your account records an authenticator was not attached to the account until after the compromise.

  15. #35
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    The algorithm used to scale down the items in CMs has been changed several times since MoP release. I haven't tested wowhead's algorithm for a while but last time I checked it wasn't up-to-date. I'll try it tonight at home.
    Anyway, you have to be careful while trying things in game since things like Hit/Expertise can mess up with your computations. Also, for some time the item scaling was computed as a whole, not item by item. IIRC, it's not the case anymore but if it were it would also be a reason why comparing two items is not enough to draw conclusion. Also, there remains some scaling bug (I think they broke Hit scaling again when trying to prevent the Hit exploit) so once again, you must be careful when you do your tests.

    But all-in-all, gems are supposed to bring slightly more versatility and that's all.
    I run CMs with 463ilvl char and 560ilvl char and the differences between the classes between the players are far more obvious than the difference between a char with socketless gear and one with a lot of sockets.
    There's a thread in general forums or somewhere showing ingame proof today higher ilvl of same item gives more stats, still.

    And obviously a player difference is more noticeable than a gear difference. Most players are more than 20% apart.

    On top of this, a flask is HUGE in challenge modes (or that gear level in general). My alt in 490 gear has 12k int, you will likely have under 10k base (excluding socket scaling)

    AoE healing cap were changed in 5.2, not dps afaik.

    Most classes have non capped aoe mechanics anyway, and the original cap was 10 - a rare number to get higher than in CM's from my experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  16. #36
    I'm glad Blizzard has at least acknowledged that players aren't necessarily looking for "time" to be a determining factor in dungeon difficulty. They've recently commented on TBC difficulty as something players want, and it would be great to see them make a "mythic" difficulty tier for dungeons in WoD, where time is not necessarily THE FACTOR for increasing difficulty.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    There's a thread in general forums or somewhere showing ingame proof today higher ilvl of same item gives more stats, still.
    Proving grounds proved this, it's no coincidence that all the highest ranked players have the best gear in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by cptaylor38 View Post
    Hope everyone is prepared for the 16 month wait for the expansion after this one.
    Date Posted: 20/8/14
    Review: 20/8/16

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Hi Turtle. According to your account records an authenticator was not attached to the account until after the compromise.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by IKT View Post
    Proving grounds proved this, it's no coincidence that all the highest ranked players have the best gear in the game.
    You are confusing correlation with causality. Better players (regardless of gear) are more likely to perform better in raiding/dungeons/PG/arenas etc since they perform better they also are further in progression and thats y they get their gear. They just dont start at the beginning of the expansion already geared because they were born like that and thats the reason they succeed....
    There's a thread in general forums or somewhere showing ingame proof today higher ilvl of same item gives more stats, still.
    Show me the proof.
    Let me put it this way. my hunter's raid ilvl is 580. I have a cmode specific gear which is about ~495-500 which includes the DMF trinket, Alchemy trinket, Engineer head (all of which were available on day 1 of the expansion) My stats are both HIGHER on my lower ilvl set in cmodes and my dps is much better. So if what you are saying its true then somewhere in my computere there is a black hole stealing my stats.
    Last edited by xoggyux; 2014-02-05 at 04:08 PM.

  19. #39
    It gets more noticeable with items that have more sockets, though.

    (ebon blood chestguard):
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=105578

    VS

    (shivbreaker vest):
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=82855

    Stats:

    Ebon -
    1349 stam.
    659 int.
    377 spirit.
    540 crit.
    red, yellow, blue socket and 180 int bonus.

    Shivbreaker:
    1349 stam.
    819 int.
    603 spirit.
    486 crit.
    Red socket, 60 int bonus.

    Assuming (just so we don't add more stats) you use a int+crit and a spirit+int and a int gem in the 3-socket chest, that's:

    Ebon -
    1349 stam.
    1159 int.
    537 spirit.
    700 crit.

    While the other chest has "just"
    Shivbreaker:
    1349 stam.
    1039 int.
    603 spirit.
    486 crit.

    Or 120 int, and 148 secondaries less.

    It's a difference, and when you take into account that this goes for "most" gear, you easily get to a level where it's worth about a flask's worth of stats.
    But the gamechanger is really that most classes have been buffed to extreme degrees compared to when we did them the first time around. Off the top of my head, I can't think of one class that was nerfed to do significantly worse in CM's. On the other hand, I know for a fact that my main (Hunter) is *extremely* much stronger - over the expansion, we've received:
    10->35% AP (25%).
    100% increased serpent sting damage (for surv).
    BM AoE is viable instead of useless.
    ES and BA recieved minor buffs, TOTH works differently (now procs off of AS due to the new focus cost).
    Just off the top of my head, all the above would make CM's significantly easier for my hunter.

  20. #40
    It's a difference, and when you take into account that this goes for "most" gear, you easily get to a level where it's worth about a flask's worth of stats.
    But the gamechanger is really that most classes have been buffed to extreme degrees compared to when we did them the first time around. Off the top of my head, I can't think of one class that was nerfed to do significantly worse in CM's. On the other hand, I know for a fact that my main (Hunter) is *extremely* much stronger - over the expansion, we've received:
    10->35% AP (25%).
    100% increased serpent sting damage (for surv).
    BM AoE is viable instead of useless.
    ES and BA recieved minor buffs, TOTH works differently (now procs off of AS due to the new focus cost).
    Just off the top of my head, all the above would make CM's significantly easier for my hunter.
    Actually AP was 35% at begining of expansion, then it was dropped to 25% and just recently raised to 35% again haha so technically the only difference from right now to the begining is the change to arcane shot/es which is a very slightly dps increase once u take into account the focus change. That being said We lost readiness which was very good on cmodes and stampede was nerfed compared to how it was on release. Overall several classes have changed, some for better others for worse. Brewmasters go a massive nerf of at least 10% probably more while warriors and dks got a significant buff (both of them vial ripostle and warriors actually got a bladestorm change if im not incorrect) On the other hand discs priest received a nerf to attonement. So yeah, some classes been buffed but others nerfed. I'd adventure to guess that overall there's been a small improvement, if not in raw dps maybe on mechanic/rotattion easiness.

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