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  1. #41
    Yes it's way easier.

    Some Classes were buffed significantly since 5.0.
    Vengeance was nerfed and tanks were buffed, then Challenge Modes were made exempt of this nerf to Vengeance.
    Sockets literally doubled.
    Hit and Expertise are exempt of CM downscaling, so your true Ilvl is way higher than 463 (A single piece of equipment with 2550 expertise means you don't need any more)

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Veliane View Post
    Hit and Expertise are exempt of CM downscaling, so your true Ilvl is way higher than 463 (A single piece of equipment with 2550 expertise means you don't need any more)
    Wrong. If your piece has 2550 expertise its other stats will be scaled down more to compensate. Not to say your complete argument is invalid, but this point certainly is.
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    Wow, didn't know that. Is this for real? Any link to a blue post, please?
    If it's true that would probably have been a far bigger nerf to CMs thant anything else discussed on this thread.
    Yeah that was in 5.2 http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8896363]5.2 patch notes

    Classes
    General
    Area Damage Cap: The area damage cap is now 20 targets (was 10). This means area of effect damage spells now reach their maximum damage when striking 20 targets. If more than 20 targets are struck, then the total damage done is spread evenly over the actual number of targets present.

  4. #44
    Increased sockets, huge number of guides for all classes or comps, and certain class changes have all contributed to making cms much easier than in the beginning of the expac. RJW and chain lightning buff are a few examples of the class changes.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    But all-in-all, gems are supposed to bring slightly more versatility and that's all.
    I run CMs with 463ilvl char and 560ilvl char and the differences between the classes between the players are far more obvious than the difference between a char with socketless gear and one with a lot of sockets.
    OP, listen to this fucking guy because he's got a brain - if you sit around thinking you need ancient fucking T14 trinkets and double-socket weapons and the like, you should just forget about challenge modes, because the MINUTE advantage those things bring is not for you - it's for people who want to be called "Dark Master" and "King of E-Peen" with unbeatable top-of-realm gold times.

    Completing 9/9 golds is far more about composition, available CDs, pacing, consumables and most importantly, individual player class competency; that is, if you bring a warrior who doesn't know every little tiny nuance and quirk about warriors, you're at a disadvantage - knowing your class like the back of your hand is how you get golds; min-maxing your sockets and professions and bringing the most OP comp is what gets you titles.

    I very recently did my 9/9 (less than 30 days ago) and I tried playing with all sorts of gear choices (swapping my Darkmoon card in and out, using my ToT weapon with double sockets, using Lei Shen gear with more sockets, etc...) and I noticed that none of it mattered; my averages and performance hinged far more on careful use of my utility CDs and DPS cooldowns (and the bloody invis pot sections) than anything else.

    I think the playerbase has gotten far too set in its ways of using gear tweaks to overcome challenges that aren't looking to strain that part of your toolkit; challenge modes are looking to strain your ability to squeeze every ounce of use out of your character - be it HPS, DPS, survivability or CC.

    The only "rule" I'd come close to recommending is about composition - don't bring more than one melee DPS and don't forget a bloodlust/heroism/time warp/ancient hysteria - I am a frost Death Knight, so I am melee and I still say bring one at most; but again, that's not hard-and-fast, it's just a bit easier.

    Edit - Also, I'd venture a guess that some of those buffs to the base damages and statistics of a lot of class abilities in the various major patches possibly affected the difficulty of challenge modes but I can't be certain if they didn't take that into account when making those changes and re-configured challenge modes accordingly.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by xoggyux View Post
    Actually AP was 35% at begining of expansion, then it was dropped to 25% and just recently raised to 35% again haha so technically the only difference from right now to the begining is the change to arcane shot/es which is a very slightly dps increase once u take into account the focus change. That being said We lost readiness which was very good on cmodes and stampede was nerfed compared to how it was on release. Overall several classes have changed, some for better others for worse. Brewmasters go a massive nerf of at least 10% probably more while warriors and dks got a significant buff (both of them vial ripostle and warriors actually got a bladestorm change if im not incorrect) On the other hand discs priest received a nerf to attonement. So yeah, some classes been buffed but others nerfed. I'd adventure to guess that overall there's been a small improvement, if not in raw dps maybe on mechanic/rotattion easiness.
    You clearly haven't been playing a hunter this expansion mate. AP started out low (10%) because it was a new expansion - they reset it from the 35% (?) it was back in DS .

  7. #47
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olrox View Post
    OP, listen to this fucking guy because he's got a brain - if you sit around thinking you need ancient fucking T14 trinkets and double-socket weapons and the like, you should just forget about challenge modes, because the MINUTE advantage those things bring is not for you - it's for people who want to be called "Dark Master" and "King of E-Peen" with unbeatable top-of-realm gold times.
    Same could be said about raiding non top content. You don't need to optimize your gear for that either, especially not in normals/flex/lfr but it certainly makes it easier and more reasonable provided the people are less skilled

    Completing 9/9 golds is far more about composition, available CDs, pacing, consumables and most importantly, individual player class competency; that is, if you bring a warrior who doesn't know every little tiny nuance and quirk about warriors, you're at a disadvantage - knowing your class like the back of your hand is how you get golds; min-maxing your sockets and professions and bringing the most OP comp is what gets you titles.
    From my experience it's about having restorative amber and invis pots.

    I very recently did my 9/9 (less than 30 days ago) and I tried playing with all sorts of gear choices (swapping my Darkmoon card in and out, using my ToT weapon with double sockets, using Lei Shen gear with more sockets, etc...) and I noticed that none of it mattered; my averages and performance hinged far more on careful use of my utility CDs and DPS cooldowns (and the bloody invis pot sections) than anything else.
    So you're inconsistent. Play more consistently and the gap between optimal/near optimal and bad gear is what more than 10% increase? More if you're in absolutely terrible gear like timeless stuff. Now to put 10% into perspective - any time you got less than 1:20-2:00 ahead of gold means you'd have to rerun to get that gold and do better. Sure it's not like it suddenly makes it super challenging, just more challenging than before.

    The only "rule" I'd come close to recommending is about composition - don't bring more than one melee DPS and don't forget a bloodlust/heroism/time warp/ancient hysteria - I am a frost Death Knight, so I am melee and I still say bring one at most; but again, that's not hard-and-fast, it's just a bit easier.
    I'd agree overall, but tbh 2 melee is fine too since we're not worried about optimal.

    Edit - Also, I'd venture a guess that some of those buffs to the base damages and statistics of a lot of class abilities in the various major patches possibly affected the difficulty of challenge modes but I can't be certain if they didn't take that into account when making those changes and re-configured challenge modes accordingly.
    Classes with good scaling got nerfed just like classes with bad scaling got buffed.
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    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    I'd agree overall, but tbh 2 melee is fine too since we're not worried about optimal.
    Well, in my experience (just did all 9 this weekend for the first time... long hours of building and rebuilding groups over and over), the 1 melee isn't about being "optimal" in a lot of cases, it's about just surviving.

    While there are some that you could do melee with no problem, there are others that are pretty brutal on melee depending on how you pull. For instance, first pull in Mogu where you pulll everything from the door to the boss.... I'm a frost DK, so I could still pump out some good damage on them at range while waiting for the dog/lion things to come out of the whirlwinds, but I couldn't imagine how useless another type of melee would be on that pull just because getting in melee range means almost certain death.

    Bringing 2 melee is just going to make some of them more difficult than they need to be. Not impossible, but harder than it needs to be.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by xoggyux View Post
    You are confusing correlation with causality.
    No I'm saying I had low ilvl gear and then I got high ilvl gear, and I went from no higher than 6th after 100 attempts at wave 16, to no.1 (over wave 30) after 2 attempts with my higher ilvl gear.

    Wave 16 used to wreck me, then with higher ilvl gear I could breeze through it.

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  10. #50
    Fluffy Kitten Lohe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    Well, in my experience (just did all 9 this weekend for the first time... long hours of building and rebuilding groups over and over), the 1 melee isn't about being "optimal" in a lot of cases, it's about just surviving.

    While there are some that you could do melee with no problem, there are others that are pretty brutal on melee depending on how you pull. For instance, first pull in Mogu where you pulll everything from the door to the boss.... I'm a frost DK, so I could still pump out some good damage on them at range while waiting for the dog/lion things to come out of the whirlwinds, but I couldn't imagine how useless another type of melee would be on that pull just because getting in melee range means almost certain death.

    Bringing 2 melee is just going to make some of them more difficult than they need to be. Not impossible, but harder than it needs to be.
    You just need some coordinated aoe stuns for that pull, it's not like it lives for long.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    You just need some coordinated aoe stuns for that pull, it's not like it lives for long.
    The chances of losing someone is still higher with more melee on pulls like that. Someone misses a stun because they're banished? Dead melee. Someone misses a stun running out of whirlwind? Dead melee. Someone misses a stun because they fat fingered a key? Dead melee. Again, not impossible, but harder than it needs to be and less room for error.

    A well coordinated group can definitely pull it off, it's not like it's impossible to do. Just like you could get by without Ambers, but why? You could do without lusts, but why?

    I'm just saying certain CM's will be handicapped by more melee.

  12. #52
    Fluffy Kitten Lohe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    The chances of losing someone is still higher with more melee on pulls like that. Someone misses a stun because they're banished? Dead melee. Someone misses a stun running out of whirlwind? Dead melee. Someone misses a stun because they fat fingered a key? Dead melee. Again, not impossible, but harder than it needs to be and less room for error.

    A well coordinated group can definitely pull it off, it's not like it's impossible to do. Just like you could get by without Ambers, but why? You could do without lusts, but why?

    I'm just saying certain CM's will be handicapped by more melee.
    Honestly the only thing that can really happen is pressing the wrong key but if you're doing that you have other problems to deal with. Both banish and and whirlwind have cast times, you don't need perfect timing on the stuns, you actually have a lot of leeway. Personally I'd rather run with high damage melee classes than lower damage ranged classes because chaining AoE CC really isn't that difficult. There are a few times where melee is just strictly worse (like the small exploding sha in SPM or Hoptallus if they aren't ace at max-ranging) but unless you're looking for the "ideal group" running two melee dps won't handicap you anywhere, you might be a bit worse off in places but saying that you get handicapped is just too strong a word.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    Honestly the only thing that can really happen is pressing the wrong key but if you're doing that you have other problems to deal with. Both banish and and whirlwind have cast times, you don't need perfect timing on the stuns, you actually have a lot of leeway. Personally I'd rather run with high damage melee classes than lower damage ranged classes because chaining AoE CC really isn't that difficult. There are a few times where melee is just strictly worse (like the small exploding sha in SPM or Hoptallus if they aren't ace at max-ranging) but unless you're looking for the "ideal group" running two melee dps won't handicap you anywhere, you might be a bit worse off in places but saying that you get handicapped is just too strong a word.
    Semantics are fun, aren't they?

  14. #54
    Fluffy Kitten Lohe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    Semantics are fun, aren't they?
    I'm guessing they're about as fun as ignoring 90% of a post and responding only to a very minor part of it.

  15. #55
    Pandaren Monk Redpanda's Avatar
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    damn near any group can get 9/9. TBH the only group that I can see having some kind of issue would be running a resto shaman since they have no real tank cds. It boils down to knowing how to handle the pulls, being efficent, and knowing what to pull. Know your class and youre half way there, be confident and GG. A lot of over thinking itt.

    PS: I am a huge advocate for doing CMs, even more if you arent the "ideal" class. Triumph in the face of adversity and all that jazz plus you get to flex your brain in how to use your class abilities to over come obstacles.
    Last edited by Redpanda; 2014-02-07 at 04:23 PM.
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    People doing below 200k dps? Ain't nobody got time for that.
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    Why? Why should content be gated behind skill?
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Redpanda View Post
    damn near any group can get 9/9. TBH the only group that I can see having some kind of issue would be running a resto shaman since they have no real tank cds. It boils down to knowing how to handle the pulls, being efficent, and knowing what to pull. Know your class and youre half way there, be confident and GG. A lot of over thinking itt.

    PS: I am a huge advocate for doing CMs, even more if you arent the "ideal" class. Triumph in the face of adversity and all that jazz plus you get to flex your brain in how to use your class abilities to over come obstacles.
    I used a few things that I don't use often when I was going through them, and they're definitely good for the reflexes. I hate the Monk tmog, but I'm interested in healing them just for the fun of it, so I may or may not do that soon.

  17. #57
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Its NOT easier due to more gem sockets available since the start of the expansion. Rather, its more easier due to all the class changes that affect AoE since the start of the expansion, among other changes.

    Monks- DPS wise, monks recieved a HUGE AoE buff with SEF addition, RJW change, and Chi-burst change. BrM monks also got a similar AoE buff with the RJW/Chi Burst change. For survivability, BrM monks now get more mastery compared to the start (~25% more), and for CC, the RoP change was very helpful, as its essentially an 8 second disarm/silence in C-modes.
    MW has gotten changed to the point that they are great attonement healers with the BoK memory muscle change, but not so strong otherwise anymore.

    Shamans- Enhance hasn't recieved any signficant buffs, but Elemental recieved a HUGE AoE buff with the CL/Lava Beam buffs. For survivability, Elemental also recieved Shamanistic Rage, and all shamans have baseline HTT in addition to AG, which is a very nice healing buff. Bring 4 elemental shamans+1 tank, and you can clear most Cmodes fairly easily with enourmously big pulls.

    Mages- AoE buffs all-around.

    Warlocks- the change to Mannoroths Fury allows warlocks some HUGE AoE burst in c-modes.

    Druids- not many changes to feral, Balance recieved an AoE buff with the DoC change. Resto has gotten uber buffed in the healing department, with Genesis, super Shroom, perma-effloresence, swiftmend buff, ect. Guardian has recieved both a stamina and barkskin buff that makes them a much tougher tank in C-modes.

    Warriors- BS change along with Bloodbath has made Warriors an extremely good AoE dps in Cmodes. The ability to not have to use a shield for shield wall and spell reflect also boosts their survivabilty.

    Hunters- have recieved numerous AoE buffs and ST buffs since the start of the expansion. Great burst.

    DKs, Rogues, and priests have recieved a few buffs, but nothing outstanding for c-mode content. Paladins have actually gotten extremely nerfed in relation to C-modes as prot, and relatively unchanged as ret/holy.

    But yea, the majority of classes GOOD at c-modes in the beggining have recieved numerous huge buffs to AoE and utility.
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  18. #58
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    People will always find ways to get ahead and there's BiS lists around for challenge modes (that only consider stat weights and gem sockets) so the competition for the best times isn't over until there's no more new gear coming out, imo.

    Though, if all you want is the set/achievement you don't really need more than knowing where to use your invis pots and which trash packs you should do/skip.


  19. #59
    Just getting gold times is incredibly easy now a days, I'm surprised people still pay us 150k to get the 9/9 done. Going for realm or region firsts can still be a nice challenge.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Its NOT easier due to more gem sockets available since the start of the expansion. Rather, its more easier due to all the class changes that affect AoE since the start of the expansion, among other changes.
    Yes it is easier because of more sockets. Class changes also make it easier. You can't just cherry pick one factor and hold it responsible for everything when clearly theres a combination of factors at work.

    My raiding gear has I think 21 sockets. At the start of the expac if you wandered in there with 5 you were doing ok. That's 16 sockets more or 1280 primary stat and double that in secondaries. On 463 gear that's massive.

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