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  1. #1

    Demonic Pet: a rethinking.

    This post is to discuss with the community the actual state of our pets, theyr effective role and usage, wich imho deserve a global rethinking, especially for the end game content.

    What we use pet for? there are 3 answers that come to my mind:

    1) Solo gameplay ( quest/old content/ etc.) : in this case, the optimal pet should be Tank/Melee DPS, with some utility that can help. Actually this role is covered by Voiwalker/Voidlord - Felguard/Wrathguard.

    2) Raid/Dungeon : in this case, a ranged DPS with utility and a form of CC would be the optimal chice. Actually this role is accomplished by IMP/Felimp and Felhunter/Observer.

    3) PvP : this can be the most tricky to assign a role, I'll give it a try: you need a DPS with utility that may vary from CC to defensive, the choice may vary a lot, Succubus/Shivarra offers Dps, a strong CC and a tactical Knockback, FelHunter/Observer offers a better (actually) Dps and a silence CC wich is extremely strong and situational, while Imp/Felimp offers reliable dps and defensive utility. FelGuard/WrathGuard has the best Dps wich can even be AoE on cd, and form of CC with the stun and a minor utility in specific to pvp in hampering healing. PvP is probably the most unclear choice, depends on situation, group composition and playstyle.

    It is my opinion that our Pets should be modeled with these needs in mind, trying to give specific answers to specific needs, leaving the spot for customizations to be more of a cosmethic aspect of the class.

    i mean, for Example, PITLORD= Tank/melee DPS, optimal for solo play- player may find ways to change colors/weapons(or get random ones as for names).

    NATHREZIM=Ranged DPS/Utility/CC for DG and Raid, players can vary Colors and faces(as above)

    DOOMGUARD= DPS ranged/AoE , CC less situational , some form of Utility, be it defensive or offensive.

    One of these Demons Ability may change when u change spec, if u are AFF, one may grant more dmage from Dots, if u are Destro the actual target may have a 5% crit debuff, if u are Demo it can grant u more Demonic fury, making the pet more involved in playstyle.

    Demons you use in the exping part, old demons like Imps,Succubi,Felpuppy,VW, may find a space as CD spells like IMP Swarm, we can see a Fellhound Pack that comes and make targeted silences, Succubi coming slahing targets randomly as a side effect of some dots like the imps in Doom mechanics.

    This changes could be awsome to finally adjust the class, give the players a feeling of "upgrade" in theyr summoning abilities and feel more Demon Masters that we actually seem... from Vanilla very little has changed, and the confusion on what pet to use when often resolve in looking wich shows best DPS in Simcraft, leaving a pet class difficult to balance.

    These are my 2 cents, i know lot of ppl may be happy with things like they are now, just some touch to numbers etc, but still i'm oretty sure changes like the ones i suppose above would be a great improvement to the class, and make it easier to balance/play, making it even more fun.

  2. #2
    I'm generally pretty happy with how pets are now, only issue is with Sac proving so hard to balance, although I think pets increasing resource generation could make up for the better Mastery scaling Sac provides, as it seems was the intention of Destructive Influence talent in MoP beta. Pets benefiting from multistrike should help too.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I'm generally pretty happy with how pets are now, only issue is with Sac proving so hard to balance, although I think pets increasing resource generation could make up for the better Mastery scaling Sac provides, as it seems was the intention of Destructive Influence talent in MoP beta. Pets benefiting from multistrike should help too.
    My last period was for you I knew you are the kind o player that do not like great changes, and performs just very well with actual system.

    You have to agree that our pets are the same from vanilla, and theyr roles have grown confusing, even if one can do optimal DPS and just take what u are given and make it profit for the best, as you surely do.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by volrat View Post
    My last period was for you I knew you are the kind o player that do not like great changes, and performs just very well with actual system.

    You have to agree that our pets are the same from vanilla, and theyr roles have grown confusing, even if one can do optimal DPS and just take what u are given and make it profit for the best, as you surely do.

    They are not anything like they were in vanilla at all...

  5. #5
    High Overlord Wesneed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    They are not anything like they were in vanilla at all...
    I'd say about 80% identical in terms of abilitys. The only major change they got was a additional 20% dmg buff + model swap.
    Except for Doomguard becoming the cd it is today.
    Last edited by Wesneed; 2014-01-31 at 01:54 PM.

  6. #6
    They just need to make the infernal a better pet, because if we take the new perma doom/inferno talent, it will need big changes or we will only take the doomguard every time. Other than this the pets are fine,they only need new skins, because in wod with the new race skins, there will be a big difference between the two, those pet skins are a vestige of the past, like this since vanilla.

  7. #7
    The Insane
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    Quick thing though; You'll never get a Nathrezim as a pet, a Pit Lord maybe, but a Nathrezim nope. If anything; *you'll* be a Nathrezim pet.
    *broken link*
    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Wesneed View Post
    I'd say about 80% identical in terms of abilitys. The only major change they got was a additional 20% dmg buff + model swap.
    Except for Doomguard becoming the cd it is today.
    Go ahead and break down that 80% figure you just quoted...

    My point is that pets have way better utility, grimoires lend themselves to totally different styles of play, Doomguard and Infernal are way less onerous to use, the A.I. is much better (not perfect) and we have new models. We can even change the names if we want.

    To say that they haven't changed all that much since vanilla? I'll disagree.

    Remember having to make sure your imp wasn't phased out so that he could receive buffs?
    Last edited by Grizelda; 2014-01-31 at 04:05 PM.

  9. #9
    My issue isn't the pets we have are flawed in concept...we have a pretty good choice available. My issue is generally their damage, their vulnerability, and AI/pve encounter interactions. MoP has been a great improvement from previous expansions in terms of pets but they still do dumb stuff/bug/etc but I can accept there will always be some of that.

    Our pets probably need to be either significantly harder to kill in pvp or do more damage...at least in demo spec. I mean no way a wrathguard compares to a BM hunter pet. Pet mobility also seems low...again compared to hunters. Giving all lock pets 30% movement speed passive wouldn't break anything and would make a nice start. The only major thing I'd like to see for WoD is some ability to spec the pet. IE give the felguard a hamstring or a stun. Just a bit of choice to let you use the utility.

    Lastly is making sure pets truly scale from 100% of buffs/stats so things like KTT trinket don't skew things. Whether mastery needs to increase resource generation for non demo specs or some other solution having a 1/3 to 2/3 scaling model for pets (for secondary stats) is rather a big loss. Also can we get fel energy regen scaling with haste already? I mean rogue/hunter/feral/etc all have it....last I checked there wasn't any real energy scaling from haste just faster auto attacks.

    That said I truly hope they leave gosac in the game and not as some crippled last ditch option for pet buggy fights. Its a fun playstyle if nothing else and the impetus should be to make pets a perk or equal so its a playstyle choice not just a "well I outscaled xxx again" with a rebalance each patch. If they truly fixed pet scaling it wouldn't happen period which is a better goal than major seesaw changes.

  10. #10

  11. #11
    My point:

    Actually, we use the demon that results better DPS in simulations, this, for the sake of balance, bring any other abilities they may posses to be very situational or gymnic, not part of the core mechanics of the class. ( this may not be so obvious, but if take time to think about it, it will be appear perfectly logic )

    If dmg between demons must be balanced, the felstorm ability will requier to be scaled down to not overpower the other demons, same for the slash of succubus or the bites of the felhunter.

    If we have demons build for a specific role, its abilities can be balanced to be usefull and effecient to the mechanics of the class; perhaps, instead of changing demon type depending on spec (Felguard/Demo,Imp/Destro,Felpuppy/Aff) was abandoned some time ago, we could see a specific Raid Demon, wich change 1 or 2 abilities depending on Spec, letting the pet be more integral part of class mechanics.

  12. #12
    I'd be more than happy to lose Felstorm and have some decent ranged AE as Demo at this point. It's fucking pathetic to have to rely on that and Mannoroth's Fury every 45s-1min to actually deal effective AE damage at range, or even at all.

    I'm a big fan of cooldowns, but they've tied way, way too much of Demo's AE into that peak of Felstorm/Dark Soul/Mannoroth's Fury leaving you the rest of the time figuratively (or literally if range is required) useless.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I'd be more than happy to lose Felstorm and have some decent ranged AE as Demo at this point. It's fucking pathetic to have to rely on that and Mannoroth's Fury every 45s-1min to actually deal effective AE damage at range, or even at all.

    I'm a big fan of cooldowns, but they've tied way, way too much of Demo's AE into that peak of Felstorm/Dark Soul/Mannoroth's Fury leaving you the rest of the time virtually (or actually if range is required) useless.
    It is here my point. If we have a specific demon for the role, its abilities may be better implemented and balanced.
    Actually, to balance the effect of felstorm, all other interactions of the Felguard are near to zero.

    It is a gymnic white dmg dot, with a serious CD dmg AoE, and the pet part of the class is done.

  14. #14
    I always though it would be cool if each pet kinda synced up to a class. For example, need a pocket Mage call an Imp... want a warrior better summon a Felguard... some of the pets do follow this pattern... just wish we could get a whole toolkit. Would love it if the Succubus had more Rogue abilities and maybe the Shivarra was closer to a DK.

    Well a guy can dream,
    Kalium

  15. #15
    I'm not sure what you are asking volrat. As you said, we already have demons for different things. VW is best for tanking and other pets are about equal in dps, except Felguard is better with aoe. The choice is often down to what utility you want most. This is great.
    Does someone miss having only one single pet choice for raids? I think that sucked. It's much better if they do the same amount of damage (some niche exceptions are ok) so that you can base your decision on their utility. I am using all my pets because they are all useful, I don't see what is broken and needs to be fixed? Maybe you just want to see change for the sake of change, but I don't see a real need for it.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by 6kle View Post
    I'm not sure what you are asking volrat. As you said, we already have demons for different things. VW is best for tanking and other pets are about equal in dps, except Felguard is better with aoe. The choice is often down to what utility you want most. This is great.
    Does someone miss having only one single pet choice for raids? I think that sucked. It's much better if they do the same amount of damage (some niche exceptions are ok) so that you can base your decision on their utility. I am using all my pets because they are all useful, I don't see what is broken and needs to be fixed? Maybe you just want to see change for the sake of change, but I don't see a real need for it.
    A lot of people are wrapped up in the kind of mindset that says 'simulation stack ranks show Observer to be 4DPS higher than the others, therefore all the other pets and talents are -completely- useless'. It's more of a community issue than a mechanical issue that needs fixing, but obviously I think it's something the OP wants to fix mechanically.

  17. #17
    In terms of raw dps I think our pets are as balanced as they have ever been. I'm fine with the FG/WG gaining a very slight advantage as it is the special pet you get for going into a form/pet centric spec. I might bring the imp's HP up to match the other pets or minor stuff since stuff like our shield bubble is based off pet HP still but that's small stuff that is more in keeping with a WoD fine tuning thread.

    Thematically I'd like to see demo pets, esp the FG/WG, be closer to what BM hunter pets were this expac... I still have a problem with a dog from gilneas or wolf from elwynn forest being meaner than the legion's finest. If they can get haste scaling fel energy regen that would do much to help pets scale. Not sure why that never happened this expac!?! The mastery issue still feels like it needs something for non demo specs and pets. Perhaps treating each pet attack like a ember/shard generating spell with higher mastery increasing the generation rate/chance?

    As long as pet twisting never comes back... Though having 2x options for each pet's command demon might be nice. Give the VW a DK'esque deathgrip as an alternative to his disarm. I think a root would be the natural companion to the succy's knockback (and locks lack a root which I believe every other ranged has). The FG hamstring or axe toss as listed above still seems about right. Maybe give the imp a disorient vs its heal/hot? Felhunters do love their spell lock and it feels blasphemous to suggest something else but if CC gets dialed back in WoD maybe have an interrupt on the melee'ish timer or a blanket silence on a longer CD?

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  19. #19
    You 100% sure about fel energy scaling with haste? I seem to recall testing this semi recently and it didn't really...only auto attack frequency went up with haste.

  20. #20
    The Patient Bryrida's Avatar
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    I just use my Succubus for everything anyways, nothing can tear us apart!

    I wish my minions dealt more damage though, my brother is a BM Hunter and I'm a Demo Warlock and I'm so jealous when I see how much damage his pets do... I want to be a master of demons! It seems like ever since Metamorphosis was added, Demo was focused on turning into a demon instead of having stronger minions and even more so with each expansion...
    Last edited by Bryrida; 2014-02-06 at 02:06 AM.

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