The curious case of Nerve Strike being halved

[Verain]

Nerve Strike is a good talent, but it doesn't take an amazing talent to be always chosen when your choices are Combat Readiness and Deadly Throw. Post shuriken nerf, it's almost impossible to land a meaningful DT interrupt, and roguewall, while good, only turns on versus physical guys. Nerve Strike has been the go-to peel and defensive move, and it's been quite a bit above in every season except the first one- and only then because rogues were like tissue paper, and roguewall was kind of needed a lot.


Regardless, it has floated until now.... when we suddenly hear it will be nerfed for the final season. It hasn't gotten a lot of attention, what with warrior charge being turned into a root (it has been a stun since like alpha?), but it's a very strong nerf. It is literally being HALVED in power- that is a hell of a lot of reduction.

Why was it changed? Was it because it was too good in tier? Probably not. It certainly wasn't because of the overall power of rogues, the only class not to show up at Blizzcon for even one game, and with well below expected rep. It was probably changed because it was too good AND it was annoying people. But, nerfs to power level should be compensated with buffs, unless you want the power of the class to drop- and rogue class power doesn't need to decrease.

Also it is one more dumb difference between pve and pvp, and yet another failure of the talent system. Whatever, at least we still have shadow blades.

[Deleted]

I think holinka has lost his grip. I dont see any reason to nerf nerve strike after already nerfing cast time slows, which i didnt get either. And the charge nerf is a joke. Rather nerf stupid stuff like storm bolt and shockwave not god damn charge stun

[ymirsson]

They halved the damage reduction and increased the healing reduction?

[Uoyredrum]

Nerve strike was a bit OP although not really enough to warrant a nerf on its own, nobody really uses CR or DT much anymore because it's so good. Also because its useful against all teams whereas DT is only useful against casters (and still far less useful than nerve strike) and CR only works vs. melee (and again NS is still probably better anyway). I think half the reason it was nerfed was because it was too good compared to the rest of the tier.

I think holinka has lost his grip. I dont see any reason to nerf nerve strike after already nerfing cast time slows, which i didnt get either. And the charge nerf is a joke. Rather nerf stupid stuff like storm bolt and shockwave not god damn charge stun

The charge nerf I don't agree with at all, it's a stupid change. As a warrior there's a TON of things I'd like to see changed (nerfed) before that. The only way I'll be ok with it is if they add an interrupt and make it like feral charge, but still. I'd rather not have this ability get changed like that, considering I've been using it for 8 years and it's never been changed till now, or even been a problem. I never really had any faith in Holinka as far as pvp design is concerned, he seems like kind of an idiot tbh from every post I've seen him make and from blizzcon.

[Coldkil]

Tbh, i don't have a single clue of the reason of this nerf. Apart the already listed considerations above, i don't see anything that leads to this nerf - especially because a) it's never been touched the entire expansion and b) our PvP representation is the lower of all time.

Maybe it was a too strong talent? If so, why not addressing it before this time (which is basically a stagnant "doing nothing" period) of MoP??

This is what is bugging me the most. Also I don't expect any rogue to suddendly switch to DT or CR since they're still bad.

[Feali]

Rogues behind Monks. Better nerf Rogues.

Also the Charge nerf? WTF

[Verain]

I think everyone wanted a warrior nerf. But I'm not really sure if anyone wanted a charge nerf? Charge stun has just been in the game for so long, and hell, even intercept had a stun.

I'm pretty sure they want to reduce the warrior toolkit, and charge is a potent part of that. It just seems strange that they would choose charge instead of the entire zoo full of strange powers they created this expac, you know?

Feral charge does not interrupt by the way. Wild charge when used in cat snares, and when used in bear is a four second root- there's no interrupt in there, and hasn't been since whenever skull bash became a thing.



You can definitely make the case that nerve strike was the best in that tier. You can also make the case that nerve strike was too good. But, a lot of bullshit is too good in this game right now, and much of it is on classes that need their rep reduced. Nerve Strike is really far down the list- it is definitely an overnerf (half damage for six seconds is not something someone can power through, 75% damage is.

So this comes to, a nerf to rogue class power in pvp. Which is not something that needs to be nerfed.

[Uoyredrum]

I think everyone wanted a warrior nerf. But I'm not really sure if anyone wanted a charge nerf? Charge stun has just been in the game for so long, and hell, even intercept had a stun.

I'm pretty sure they want to reduce the warrior toolkit, and charge is a potent part of that. It just seems strange that they would choose charge instead of the entire zoo full of strange powers they created this expac, you know?

Feral charge does not interrupt by the way. Wild charge when used in cat snares, and when used in bear is a four second root- there's no interrupt in there, and hasn't been since whenever skull bash became a thing.

Ah my mistake, I was thinking of the old feral charge and the fact that skull bash looks pretty much the same.

You can definitely make the case that nerve strike was the best in that tier. You can also make the case that nerve strike was too good. But, a lot of bullshit is too good in this game right now, and much of it is on classes that need their rep reduced. Nerve Strike is really far down the list- it is definitely an overnerf (half damage for six seconds is not something someone can power through, 75% damage is.

So this comes to, a nerf to rogue class power in pvp. Which is not something that needs to be nerfed.

I agree, but good luck telling blizzard that. It's rare they actually make changes that tackle the root of a problem though, they love bandaid fixes that make no sense.

[Deleted]

[random battlegrounds only]

I'm somewhat split on Nerve Strike. On the one hand it's pretty much the only thing preventing the flag carrier from being instantgibbed by arms warriors (many just trinket, fear and reckstorm anyway with debuff), on the other hand it does seem a bit too powerful. You either force a trinket and have them still waste 6 (+reaction time) seconds of doing half damage with their juicy dps cooldowns up, or you have them waste a full 10-12 seconds. And as Subtlety it's against multiple targets if you pop shadowdance to peel.

Anyway, I'm reasonably certain Nerve Strike wasn't nerfed because it was too powerful within it's own tier. If that was the case they would (should?) have taken a look at Subterfuge and Marked for Death since they seem to be utterly set in stone, no matter what spec or style you play. And one does still see the odd Combat Readiness pop up every now and again, though mostly on Assassination rogues

[Eazy]

Holinka is not very intelligent and shouldn't really be a major guy for PvP balance.

[Koji2k11]

Holinka is not very intelligent and shouldn't really be a major guy for PvP balance.

and ppl still think GC was the bad guy ^^

[Terahertz]

Because a blatant 50% dmg reduction for 6 seconds after any cheap shot or kidney shot is pretty stupid, yeah? In theory you could keep someone's damage halved by 50% for a total of 18 seconds.

[Verain]

Because a blatant 50% dmg reduction for 6 seconds after any cheap shot or kidney shot is pretty stupid, yeah? In theory you could keep someone's damage halved by 50% for a total of 18 seconds.

I can think of much more disruptive CC chains than "poor widdle arms warrior has to wait a bit before going HAM".

If it's "pretty stupid", how come rogues don't have good representation? I agree it's a great peel, and it can turn someone off for a bit, but it's very much married to the stun DR, and it is pretty ignorable, or you'd see people bringing rogues for it.


It's like complaining about polymorph, which, by the way, is far more game changing than nerve strike.

[Deleted]

Because a blatant 50% dmg reduction for 6 seconds after any cheap shot or kidney shot is pretty stupid, yeah? In theory you could keep someone's damage halved by 50% for a total of 18 seconds.

Also in Order to do this you have to pay a lot of resources and therefore reducing your Damage Output. I would think twice about using a 3/4 Dr Stun

[Terahertz]

I can think of much more disruptive CC chains than "poor widdle arms warrior has to wait a bit before going HAM".

If it's "pretty stupid", how come rogues don't have good representation? I agree it's a great peel, and it can turn someone off for a bit, but it's very much married to the stun DR, and it is pretty ignorable, or you'd see people bringing rogues for it.


It's like complaining about polymorph, which, by the way, is far more game changing than nerve strike.

Representation does not always mean viability and rogues actually do have a good representation this patch. Besides that, of course nobody would simply bring a rogue for just nerve strike, but nerve strike combined with all the stuns rogues have makes rogue peels so much stronger.

Also in Order to do this you have to pay a lot of resources and therefore reducing your Damage Output. I would think twice about using a 3/4 Dr Stun

Boo hoo, cheap shot costs 40 energy and kidney shot costs 5 combo points. Rogues have 130(?) energy to begin with, which means they can at least cheap shot 3 times, plus the energy regens they can actually cheap shot 4 times in a row. The resource cost for an instant stun with no CD that also applies a 50% damage reduction to your target for 6 seconds if they actually do decide to trinket it, is a sacrifice I'm willing to make any day.

[Verain]

Holinka is not very intelligent and shouldn't really be a major guy for PvP balance.

Holinka is very smart man. I think that the pvp team has an odd set of priorities, and they also have an odd set of restrictions (ex: they can't say, "arcane mage damage is too low in pvp (and it is), therefore we will simply up the damage by 20%). This puts them in an odd corner, and they have a bunch of talents that are awful that they have to mess with. Most of the talents don't have much room to slide by a lot- if a 4 second stun is too good, then what about a 3 second stun? Wait, now DR makes it worthless! Etc.

Overall, under Holinka (and I'm positive it isn't just him), the PvP team has been in triage mode trying to repair something that is fundamentally broke. They even cry about patches being too hard to put out, and that the minor slider idea isn't even working. We've seen changes like, ilvl normalization, resilience baseline, battfat, and other sweeping large changes to make the section of pvp that is supposed to be competitive exactly that, in an expansion with far too many item levels and scaling (2x output was unheard of in the past, now 3x to 4x is the rule).


So when I see a change like this I get cross. First, it's an overnerf: 75% of someone's normal damage doesn't punish them for bladestorming, and doesn't allow you to bait enemies like the current one (he's low, I'll just go HAM and OH NO NERVE STRIKE), and is generally pretty lame and forgettable. Without a compensatory buff- say, to duration- we are in a situation where the move has just been literally gutted to half of its former strength.

Second, since this move was OBVIOUSLY good, many rogues use it. This means that the total power of rogues is going down, during a time where I can't really believe that could possibly be intended.

[Deleted]

Boo hoo, cheap shot costs 40 energy and kidney shot costs 5 combo points. Rogues have 130(?) energy to begin with, which means they can at least cheap shot 3 times, plus the energy regens they can actually cheap shot 4 times in a row. The resource cost for an instant stun with no CD that also applies a 50% damage reduction to your target for 6 seconds if they actually do decide to trinket it, is a sacrifice I'm willing to make any day.

I don't think you play a rogue yourself. Cheap Shot is a 4s stun, 5 if glyphed. Only Useable from stealth. So there you go, you can't spam it like you said, you would have to get a restealth at the perfect time, which is unlikely, or use Shadow Dance in case you are sublety, which is using your offensive CD for defence, which lowers damage.
Now there is Kidney Shot, which uses 1-5 CPs and stuns for 1-6 seconds with 20s CD and is on melee table. While you could in fact do that, you lose the opportunity to stun the other person in the arena for that duration and might waste duration to DR.
Oh and the 5CPs used for that also lower your damage.

For that 6s damage reduction on one player the rouge sacrifices a varying amount of his control/Dps, in the extreme case of your 18s 50% he probably also gimps himself to 50% potential

[ymirsson]

Boo hoo, cheap shot costs 40 energy and kidney shot costs 5 combo points. Rogues have 130(?) energy to begin with, which means they can at least cheap shot 3 times, plus the energy regens they can actually cheap shot 4 times in a row. The resource cost for an instant stun with no CD that also applies a 50% damage reduction to your target for 6 seconds if they actually do decide to trinket it, is a sacrifice I'm willing to make any day.

As always, numbers do not tell the whole story. And i do want to know which stun in this game is not instant?

[apepi]

Holinka is very smart man. I think that the pvp team has an odd set of priorities, and they also have an odd set of restrictions (ex: they can't say, "arcane mage damage is too low in pvp (and it is), therefore we will simply up the damage by 20%). This puts them in an odd corner, and they have a bunch of talents that are awful that they have to mess with. Most of the talents don't have much room to slide by a lot- if a 4 second stun is too good, then what about a 3 second stun? Wait, now DR makes it worthless! Etc.

Overall, under Holinka (and I'm positive it isn't just him), the PvP team has been in triage mode trying to repair something that is fundamentally broke. They even cry about patches being too hard to put out, and that the minor slider idea isn't even working. We've seen changes like, ilvl normalization, resilience baseline, battfat, and other sweeping large changes to make the section of pvp that is supposed to be competitive exactly that, in an expansion with far too many item levels and scaling (2x output was unheard of in the past, now 3x to 4x is the rule).


So when I see a change like this I get cross. First, it's an overnerf: 75% of someone's normal damage doesn't punish them for bladestorming, and doesn't allow you to bait enemies like the current one (he's low, I'll just go HAM and OH NO NERVE STRIKE), and is generally pretty lame and forgettable. Without a compensatory buff- say, to duration- we are in a situation where the move has just been literally gutted to half of its former strength.

Second, since this move was OBVIOUSLY good, many rogues use it. This means that the total power of rogues is going down, during a time where I can't really believe that could possibly be intended.

I would not say he is the best but he seems okay. At least he communicates with the community, that is a step up from what we had before.

[xdrop]

Representation does not always mean viability and rogues actually do have a good representation this patch. Besides that, of course nobody would simply bring a rogue for just nerve strike, but nerve strike combined with all the stuns rogues have makes rogue peels so much stronger.

Boo hoo, cheap shot costs 40 energy and kidney shot costs 5 combo points. Rogues have 130(?) energy to begin with, which means they can at least cheap shot 3 times, plus the energy regens they can actually cheap shot 4 times in a row. The resource cost for an instant stun with no CD that also applies a 50% damage reduction to your target for 6 seconds if they actually do decide to trinket it, is a sacrifice I'm willing to make any day.

You have no idea how rogues work. Kidney shot is a finisher thus can be any amount of combo points... but also has a cd. In order to get 4 cheap shots you'd need to either get a re-stealth, or waste a vanish/dance. Once you use either its just one cheap shot, it doesn't make sense to keep cheap shotting because the debuff lasts 6 seconds and you'd be putting the target on stun DR. People can still get kills with a nerve strike debuff on them.

Also I believe Holinka makes nerfs when 2400+ players on arenajunkies/twitch complain about an ability. Nerve strike has never been talked about, but since theres been talks about it through these sites... what do we see? A nerf. I think Holinka has no idea what hes doing and just goes by what the high rated players say. Because lets face it, the guy can't even explain this nerf.