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  1. #21
    NS was a way too effective peel in 3s, a rogue could easily drop a team's damage by 50% every restealth with subterfuge. The big problem with NS is that it ignores stun DRs so a quarter CS is worth using because you still get the full 5 second debuff out of it. A better change, and hopefully the long run change to he ability is to make NS follow the stun DR on target but that may not be an easy change to make so in the short term a reduction in debuff strength is a good idea. It will still be a powerful peel at 25% since you can still spam cheap shot the entire enemy team on a restealth.
    Fierydemise
    The Horsemen-US 25 (25 man). 9 Hours per Week.
    Rogue Chat-Blogging about Rogue PvE and Theorycrafting (Twitter)

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    NS was a way too effective peel in 3s, a rogue could easily drop a team's damage by 50% every restealth with subterfuge. The big problem with NS is that it ignores stun DRs so a quarter CS is worth using because you still get the full 5 second debuff out of it. A better change, and hopefully the long run change to he ability is to make NS follow the stun DR on target but that may not be an easy change to make so in the short term a reduction in debuff strength is a good idea. It will still be a powerful peel at 25% since you can still spam cheap shot the entire enemy team on a restealth.
    I guess it wouldn't be too hard to see how much the stun duration was and put that as the debuff timer instead of trying to put the debuff on the stun DR as a separate ability itself.
    Fluorescent - Fluo - currently retired, playing other stuff

    i5-4670k @ 4.5 / Thermalright Silver Arrow Extreme / Gigabyte Z87X-D3H / 8GB DDR3-1600 RAM / Gigabyte GTX 760

  3. #23
    Fluorescent0: I think he means have NS debuff duration follow stun dr, not trigger or be triggered by stun dr. IMO, a better fix would be to limit it to 1 target but be full strength.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Fluorescent0: I think he means have NS debuff duration follow stun dr, not trigger or be triggered by stun dr. IMO, a better fix would be to limit it to 1 target but be full strength.
    That's exactly what I meant. If NS duration follows stun duration instead of being an arbitrary number, it's automatically on the stun DR without having to work around putting a debuff on a diminishing return, and putting more confusion into users who'd ask if this or that debuff has DR or not, and if it has which one it actually follows.
    Fluorescent - Fluo - currently retired, playing other stuff

    i5-4670k @ 4.5 / Thermalright Silver Arrow Extreme / Gigabyte Z87X-D3H / 8GB DDR3-1600 RAM / Gigabyte GTX 760

  5. #25
    The nerf was justified BUT they didn't hit the right place. Instead of hitting the potency of the skill, they could have coded the debuff to apply as long as the current stun duration in order to keep Rogues from applying a 50% damage reduction for 6 seconds whether or not the actual stun was max length or even half a second. Or simply restricted it to 1 target, which has been a primary issue with the ability due to Subterfuge.

    But it's another case of Blizzard taking a shortcut instead of addressing the problem.

  6. #26
    bet that they did it simply cause of all the whiners who constantly complained.

    Tbh its not really an unbalanced skill.
    Being rogue you have to sacrifice all of your dps to cc 2 enemy members and you furthermore need to connect in meele or you just wasted time running after them for nothing , meanwhile most ranged dps classes can use instant cc at no significant dps loss. Infact real ranged cc is even better in the aspect that the target can't use his skills unlike rogues nerve strike.

  7. #27
    Make ns 40% reduction, nerf done. It's just like evasion, they couldn't find a good number for it then just made it 100% it'll probably end up being buffed again and they are just screwing with us now to test the waters.

  8. #28
    Disagree. They aren't interested in iterating. Despite all the talk of tunable knobs, we haven't seen anything but "here's something you might bring to arena" and "ok now it sucks".

    Which of these talents do you think are just about perfect? All have been changed a bit this expansion, so their iteration should clearly have closed in on the desired whatever:


    1- Nightstalker
    2- Shadow Focus
    3- Subterfuge

    Each of these elements has been tweaked or changed this expac. Do you feel this is a choice in pvp? In pve?

    4- Deadly Throw

    Under which circumstances do you choose deadly throw? I actually used this back when...

    5- Shuriken Throw

    ...this was a good talent, because the combo points it made were good. Do you think they really nailed it when they halved the power of the move?

    6- Cloak and Dagger

    This made sub unpeelable, so they made it unplayable. It may or may not have been left in this case because Woundman made use of it with subterfuge, to cleave cheap shots into bomb bladespree. Do you use this talent much?


    If I forget my "they tweaked it" requirement we get:

    7- Leeching Poison

    So perfect. You use it in about half of pve situations, and it's very good in pvp, but not better than...

    Wait, fuck me. Leeching poison? You use this on that one troll guy that elusiveness doesn't work on, right? And farm content where you don't even intend to feint.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    7- Leeching Poison

    So perfect. You use it in about half of pve situations, and it's very good in pvp, but not better than...

    Wait, fuck me. Leeching poison? You use this on that one troll guy that elusiveness doesn't work on, right? And farm content where you don't even intend to feint.
    Leeching poison is our questing/farming poison duh. Need a whole talent just so I can go kill some stuff over on the timeless isle without a healer. In a raid I'd never ever ever ever take this because the healing is so pointless. Healer's smart heals will more than cover any sort of abysmal healing this might pull. And, in a case where feint doesn't work or you just don't wanna use it then cheat death is still a stronger choice since living through a mistake and avoiding a one shot mechanic or bad healers the cheat death proc + shield wall effect has a much stronger chance to save you from death than a very very very tiny heal.

    The bad thing about rogue talents is that at best in a tier they only have at most 2 out of 3 viable choices and even at that L15 for example 2 good talents but 1 is only good for 1 spec and then the other is the only good one for the other 2 specs. Every tier has at least 1 talent that's total crap or just so underwhelming it never gets used.

  10. #30
    I dunno about cheat death being a stronger choice in all cases. In the one fight this expansion where we have used leeching poison, it was literally built for it- the damage came in as a strong dot, and it used mitigations on the target (not you) but did not allow doubling up on mitigations (so it ignored elu). I'm actually not sure if it would ignore cheat death or not, but even if it would have, it was a bad choice, because the damage was so dot like.

    Cheat Death seems meant for the situations where you will take fatal damage or very likely could. I don't run it very much ever, but it still feels strong and has had some use. At some point, my preference for a move like elusiveness will enter into the equation, and I think Cheat Death is in that area- but Leeching Poison even SOUNDS cool. It just sucks a bag of goat dong.



    Also you will note that the warrior nerf got stepped down massively, instead becoming a shared cooldown with a talent that they don't even need to take (and one which has substantially more competition than deadly fucking throw). I wasn't really a fan of the charge nerf at all, but I doubt this one nerf alone will make warriors in the "fair in pvp" band all by itself.

    If only we had the army of tears that they do!

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    If only we had the army of tears that they do!
    In stealth, nobody hears you crying.


    This vanish was only a setback! We WERE prepared! (And we were the only ones, i dare say!)

    I do not always complain about rogue issues regarding PvP but when i do, nobody cares!
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    not quite Batman

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Emfg View Post
    Representation does not always mean viability and rogues actually do have a good representation this patch. Besides that, of course nobody would simply bring a rogue for just nerve strike, but nerve strike combined with all the stuns rogues have makes rogue peels so much stronger.

    Boo hoo, cheap shot costs 40 energy and kidney shot costs 5 combo points. Rogues have 130(?) energy to begin with, which means they can at least cheap shot 3 times, plus the energy regens they can actually cheap shot 4 times in a row. The resource cost for an instant stun with no CD that also applies a 50% damage reduction to your target for 6 seconds if they actually do decide to trinket it, is a sacrifice I'm willing to make any day.
    Another clown with no idea of how rogues work or high level pvp in general. The -dmg part of nerve strike hasn't changed since the start of MoP and yet for some reason it has become the flavour of the month thing for morons to complain about, despite warriors and mages currently ruining the game. It is probably because in the current climate of popping multiple cooldowns and trying to gib someone, nerve strike is one of the only talents in the game that somewhat counters that playstyle and this frustrates many people.

    There should be more talents like nerve strike in the game; active talents that require strategy and timing to use that can help teammates out while punishing bad opponents for allowing the rogue to restealth.

    The only thing overpowered with rogues is *possibly* subterfuge. The complaints about nerve strike are laughable baby-babble from bad players, and the complaints about tricks of the trade are really mis-directed complaints about mage damage. Tricks has been used to buffed mages ever since WotLK, so what has changed? Mage damage, especially via instants, is still out of control. Why do we never hear about tricks synergy with any other class? The whole witch-hunt against rogues is bizarre and rogues should not take a single nerf until warriors and mages (and hunter CC) are gutted to the core and rebuilt from scratch because those classes are broken.

  13. #33
    i agree totally with lolpve.
    as an addition i want to add that simply halfing the potential of nerf strike is lazy and mindless.
    they couldn't possibly try to tweak something else or use another number like 35%?
    i think it's a waste of time to nerf classes that really are in a good spot at the moment.
    also i am really annoyed by those people here that are unable to wait 6 sec before clicking their swifty macros in a pvp environment.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by shinjin View Post
    i agree totally with lolpve.
    as an addition i want to add that simply halfing the potential of nerf strike is lazy and mindless.
    they couldn't possibly try to tweak something else or use another number like 35%?
    i think it's a waste of time to nerf classes that really are in a good spot at the moment.
    also i am really annoyed by those people here that are unable to wait 6 sec before clicking their swifty macros in a pvp environment.
    The problem was the ease of reapplication for full duration even from a near fully DRed stun.

    Instead of fixing that or the ability to hit multiple people with it in a Dance or Subterfuge, they opted to just gut the ability.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    The problem was the ease of reapplication for full duration even from a near fully DRed stun.

    Instead of fixing that or the ability to hit multiple people with it in a Dance or Subterfuge, they opted to just gut the ability.
    yes it is easy to re-apply but it comes at a cost. (energy, complete dr offset, positioning, sometimes even sstep) and anything that breaks/prevents the stun removes the debuff (trinket, ibf, bubble etc.)
    there will come the day in various pvp environments, where you cannot peel your healer (fc, what ever)from inc. damage.
    i bet it gets adressed again in warlords...

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    The problem was the ease of reapplication for full duration even from a near fully DRed stun.

    Instead of fixing that or the ability to hit multiple people with it in a Dance or Subterfuge, they opted to just gut the ability.
    "Ease of re-application"? Getting a re-stealth isn't easy with the myriad of dots, AoEs, faerie fire and obviously dispel on a cooldown. Anything who thinks re-stealths are too easy is quite simply bad. The only options a rogue has to use nerve strike are to waste a valuable re-stealth to do zero damage and run around cheap shotting people, waste vanish, or to waste a valuable 20 second undispellable stun cooldown, or to waste shadowdance. I say "waste" but it's a matter of cost-benefit and sometimes it's simply wiser to use resources to play defensive, a concept that sadly is lost on most of the playerbase and nearly every spec in the game which doesn't have to even consider this dichotomy.

    I think shinjin summed up my thoughts, this whining is purely a matter of people annoyed at waiting 6 seconds to pop their macros.

    What is really sad is that in a few months people will be whining that 25% is still too much, because it's the principle of the ability they hate. They hate the fact that they have to think about when they use abilities; nothing hurts an ego like some idiot popping bladestorm while he has nerve strike. Much easier to whine for nerfs than to improve as a player.

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