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  1. #1
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Modified MasterSimple

    After messing around with mastersimple priorities v normal DW priorities in both raid and simcraft, I noticed something interesting. SR continues to be the highest DPE of any ability. So why does mastersimple drop BOTH OB and SR?

    When I ran sims, I was getting a 2k DPS increase over mastersimple by not dropping SR, and keeping it in its normal place on the priority list.

    Any thoughts? This could be only specific to me due to gear, etc. But I thought it was interesting.

    I got these results:

    Mastersimple: 377,845 DPS

    Normal: 378,718 DPS

    No OB, SR, delayed PL: 379,380 DPS

    Few possible thoughts:

    Could be due to my specific character. Having HWF weapon V slightly lower overall ilvl. Also, am not an orc, but a goblin. Maybe that has an impact (SR is 120% AP scaling v 73% for HB, but HB is frost damage so increased by mastery. Not sure which scales better for an orc). Or maybe I did something strange simming.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...riend/advanced

    Character, for reference.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2014-02-01 at 04:50 PM.

  2. #2
    High Overlord frantik's Avatar
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    It probably has something to do with gear. I personally play completely without Obliterate but with Soul Reaper, there is occasions I won't use Soul Reaper below 35%, for example if there's adds to cleave or if I have high stacks of the 2pc proc or a trinket proc + PoF. HB has a really high ceiling on it's damage potential so there are certain circumstances it'll deal more damage than SR. I think the reason it's ignored in standard MasterSimple is because you don't have to think about an extra button and it IS a "simple" version of the standard priority at a very small DPS cost. At the sort of dps difference you're looking at, you can play pretty much any of those priorities in a single target scenario and you wouldn't notice the difference unless you are looking to get high ranks or play absolutely 100% optimally.

  3. #3
    Last I checked, not using SR was, in fact, a dps loss if there aren't any strength procs active. It's only phased out because, as you said, it's like a 2k dps increase. That's sub 1% range. It's just not worth the extra monitoring effort.

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Those were my assumptions, yet I had heard the argument that mastersimple was a gain at certain gear levels, although personally I've never seen it on my own sims.

    But it still seems the best DW rotation would be dropping OB but not SR, hitting SR when no strength procs are running, and hitting it when they are down. This is, of course, when ST damage is what matters (E.G paragons, Garrosh.)

    The "ease" argument is valid, yet mastersimple+SR is still "easier" (as in less to manage/track) than normal DW rotation, and quite possibly even higher DPS in more cases. I think this is an overall better option than mastersimple, although once again it's going to be character specific.

  5. #5
    I never saw mastersimple to be the most optimal priority, especially due to how simcraft priorities are written for frost. The lists are written resource based, not proc based which can make a difference.

    For instance, SR, generally its about that 2k dps gain, but if you have trinket procs its likely to be a loss as hb is stronger while these, additionally you can shoot an SR like 2 seconds on trinket cd left and get an empowered explosion trading a global without trinket procs with one empowered by trinket procs. I didn't try so far, but it should increase the gain if you limit SR use to your specific ap breakpoint of hb beating SR.

    For Obliterate, i'm sitting at about 19k mastery unbuffed, exactly 80% in my nice little character window, for reference. Not using oblit at all is a dps loss for me. The reason is here again relatively simple: without oblit you can turn less UH runes in death runes, or have to use PS too often which is not always good, in addition there is still a rime proc and hb + oblit beats hb + ps, as it occurs only 45% of the times its not a general option, but a situational:

    If you have many resources and no trinket procs, maybe not even falling crusader up, use your "last" Frost/death rune of the cycle in combination with a uh rune for oblit.
    I did this once in simcraft, without ap limitations though, and got out a ds gain of 2k over the normal priority with obliterate being 1,6-2% of my dmg which pretty much reflects what i do ingame.

    Might be a gear thing, but better weapons go in favor of obliterate and i still have no wf weapons. Also mastersimple is a little loss compared to the default priority which is especially why i don't use it. Also falling asleep in a boss fight isn't exactly good for my numbers, too, and if i can squeeze a % more for more fun game play, why not?
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  6. #6
    Obliterate can go either way, there are plenty of top 10 parses with no obliterates and there are plenty with it. Maybe using obliterate with no strength procs up and ignoring it otherwise could use some testing.

    Using soul reaper on cooldown is around a 0.3% damage increase for me, using it intelligently around procs is probably slightly more but I haven't bothered to write a priority list for that and I'm not going to.

  7. #7
    There's an AP breakpoint for that. Mendenbarr calculated it to be ~136k AP for the default BiS profile in SimC using the following equation:
    Code:
    (((main-hand weapon damage) + (2.4 *(X/ 14)))*1.3*1.15*1.04*0.68+(60000+1.2X)*1.15*1.05=(499+0.8487X)* 1.10*1.05*1.15*mastery
    Using SR for single-target is a DPS increase under the right circumstances, but determining that on the fly can sometimes be tricky with mastery's fluctuation due to the 2P. If you're concerned about it, track your AP and try to abide by it.

  8. #8
    To be honest, MastetSimple is not about pumping out the most DPS; since being aware and throwing out SoulReapers when you have the stars lining up is still stronger.

    It's called mastersimple because you can be brain dead DOSing and not lose any real damage. Just like how 2h uses their KM procs immediately disregarding OB. But if you're out for that 1-2% increase, you time it between swings for an Oblit instead of a FrostStrike.

    It's like WW monks ignoring their Fists of Fury completely, or tracking everything in a fight to use it when stars align and gain 1-2% increased damage.

    The name says it all, really. MasterSIMPLE.

  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pickwickman View Post
    To be honest, MastetSimple is not about pumping out the most DPS; since being aware and throwing out SoulReapers when you have the stars lining up is still stronger.

    It's called mastersimple because you can be brain dead DOSing and not lose any real damage. Just like how 2h uses their KM procs immediately disregarding OB. But if you're out for that 1-2% increase, you time it between swings for an Oblit instead of a FrostStrike.

    It's like WW monks ignoring their Fists of Fury completely, or tracking everything in a fight to use it when stars align and gain 1-2% increased damage.

    The name says it all, really. MasterSIMPLE.
    It's more than that. It's the fact that dropping OB but not dropping SR was simming as a DPS gain over normal DW rotation, albeit a very very small one.

  10. #10
    I think that you might just be bad?

    OT: I dont use OB but I use SL depending on 2 set stacks

  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zalavaaris View Post
    I think that you might just be bad?

    OT: I dont use OB but I use SL depending on 2 set stacks
    <3 you too zal. :P

  12. #12
    Is there still a problem with SimC showing hastes value increased substantially for dual wield?

    My latest sim showed:

    strength - 7.02
    Haste - 5.63
    Mastery - 4.4
    Crit - 3.41

    This is also including the override for Icy Talons. I wanted to use these values to plug into AMR, since when I just checked beforehand it was telling me to use full mastery gems in my pants which could possibly be due to me being so far over the hit cap(I'm at 10.34% hit, only that way due to specific items not dropping and other substancial upgrades dropped, boots off sha belt off shaman to be precise although I did coin the boots off shaman too so I am debating switching to those until the malkorok boots drop).

    Regardless http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%AA/advanced is my armory, I am about to redo all my reforges as it's a mess currently but would pure mastery gems in some spots be more valuable than strength/mastery? Or was AMR suggesting that simply because Im so far over the hit cap that it would be more beneficial to have pure mastery instead of hit mastery including losing the strength gem bonus?

  13. #13
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    Is there still a problem with SimC showing hastes value increased substantially for dual wield?

    My latest sim showed:

    strength - 7.02
    Haste - 5.63
    Mastery - 4.4
    Crit - 3.41

    This is also including the override for Icy Talons. I wanted to use these values to plug into AMR, since when I just checked beforehand it was telling me to use full mastery gems in my pants which could possibly be due to me being so far over the hit cap(I'm at 10.34% hit, only that way due to specific items not dropping and other substancial upgrades dropped, boots off sha belt off shaman to be precise although I did coin the boots off shaman too so I am debating switching to those until the malkorok boots drop).

    Regardless http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%AA/advanced is my armory, I am about to redo all my reforges as it's a mess currently but would pure mastery gems in some spots be more valuable than strength/mastery? Or was AMR suggesting that simply because Im so far over the hit cap that it would be more beneficial to have pure mastery instead of hit mastery including losing the strength gem bonus?
    Do you have the latest simcraft version? Make sure you have the line for using AMS=100,000 in there. Also make sure you ran it with PL and reg. magic glyph in. Not having those could skew results.

    These are my weights:

    Str: 7.87
    Mastery: 5.33
    Crit: 4.06
    Haste: 2.92

    But your reforges are all messed up, and that probably skews things. (You're almost 1% over expertise cap, for one.)
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2014-02-02 at 06:20 PM.

  14. #14
    High Overlord Lamperouqe's Avatar
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    http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/dkdiseases

    You can set this up to tell you whenever using HB over SR is an increase.
    On break from progress raiding due to work atm :[
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Do you have the latest simcraft version? Make sure you have the line for using AMS=100,000 in there. Also make sure you ran it with PL and reg. magic glyph in. Not having those could skew results.

    These are my weights:

    Str: 7.87
    Mastery: 5.33
    Crit: 4.06
    Haste: 2.92

    But your reforges are all messed up, and that probably skews things. (You're almost 1% over expertise cap, for one.)
    I just fixed my reforges around and I'm going to redownload SimC to see if I do in fact have the right version I know I havent downloaded a version in a while, I just can't think if its the most current or one from before.

    I swapped my boots out and got my expertise to 7.5%. Saw that PL and reg. magic glyph were in as well as the ams line = 100000. Going to run another sim if it's the same thing I am going to download SimC again.

    edit: just chose to download the most recent one and saw that it is the same version I have so Im hoping this new sim will be better

    edit2: it's showing the same thing this second sim for haste being valued at 5.7 with the IT over-ride buff

    edit3: I just even bumped ams soaking to 200000 and still haste is valued high, there has to be something wrong, can you give me a copy of the profile you use and I just copy/paste the stuff I need so I can see the correct number? Just did one where ams = 2 million and haste is still supreme...somethings gotta be wrong with my profile.
    Last edited by valliant13; 2014-02-02 at 07:44 PM.

  16. #16
    If you have the latest version, don't add in another override since it already includes the hotfixes.

  17. #17
    The Patient Nedda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vereesa View Post
    If you have the latest version, don't add in another override since it already includes the hotfixes.
    The latest version on http://simulationcraft.org/ doesn't include them (was released on 01/10/2014, i.e. before the hotfix). Or did I miss something?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedda View Post
    The latest version on http://simulationcraft.org/ doesn't include them (was released on 01/10/2014, i.e. before the hotfix). Or did I miss something?
    I think you missed the date.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Lamperouqe View Post
    http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/dkdiseases

    You can set this up to tell you whenever using HB over SR is an increase.
    Man, I got really excited when I saw your post, but the addon doesn't seem to be working for me. It perpetually shows "60k - 499", no matter what buffs proc or fall off in combat. I left a message on the addon page on Curse to see if the addon creator can provide any guidance, but if you have any personal experience getting this addon to work for you, please let me know here or in a private message. Thanks.
    [H] <Giggity> 25m (14/14H) - Area 52 (US-PvE)
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Coal View Post
    Man, I got really excited when I saw your post, but the addon doesn't seem to be working for me. It perpetually shows "60k - 499", no matter what buffs proc or fall off in combat. I left a message on the addon page on Curse to see if the addon creator can provide any guidance, but if you have any personal experience getting this addon to work for you, please let me know here or in a private message. Thanks.
    Yea, I was seeing the same issue. It's a great idea but Im not sure its working correctly for me either. Also thanks Vereesa for letting me know that the newest version had the hotfix included in the sim. It fixed it and haste is now my least valuable stat. Now I just need to decide if going full mastery in my pants like AMR said to when optimizing is a real dps increase. It simmed a little over 1200 more dps but that was only with 1000 iterations.

    Now my only issue is SR vs HB which I seem to be still fucking up. would that mean that during all of paragons of klaxxi encounter I basically should ignore SR until the last two bosses?

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