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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by diddle View Post
    So you are saying that no matter what your job is, if you do it 40 hours a week that you should be able to support yourself? Don't get me wrong, I would love if this was true but it is completely unfeasible.
    No, it really isn't. It's not unfeasible in the slightest. Should a single parent be able to support a family of 3 (themselves and two children) or 4 at any job at 40 hours a week? No. Should they be able to support themselves at any job working 40 hours a week, even if it means a one-bedroom apartment and eating lean? Absolutely.

    3DS Friend Code: 0146-9205-4817. Could show as either Chris or Chrysia.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by diddle View Post
    In America, you get to choose between a socially progressive and scientifically modern party that knows nothing of economics, and a socially backwards religion-centric party that knows slightly more about economics.
    I would suggest you stop kidding yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by diddle View Post
    I am a liberal, I vote democrat. That doesn't mean I agree with the ludicrously naive belief that a full-time job entitles one to the concept they should be able to entirely support themself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nostop it View Post
    Cooking is a skill? In wow maybe.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    No I am talking about reality here, where as I stated people will try to get away with everything they can. The "system will be gamed" if we are to employ your terminology here. Regulations work to minimize the hazardous end result.



    I never stated that regulations are immune to error, critique and misuse. I simply stated their intended use, purpose and potential. Ofcourse everything can be exploited and misused and it is possible to have bad regulation. Your target here then should be bad regulation rather than all regulation. Society doesn't stop using guns simply because they can be and are misused right?
    I'll compromise with you on that and focus on bad regulation instead of most or all. But the minimum wage would have to be one of those regulations unfortunately. Due to the evidence.

  4. #184
    Scarab Lord Garnier Fructis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decklan View Post
    This isn't some kind of thing that's exclusive to government regulation. The "free market" isn't as free or as benevolently pure as people want to believe.
    This is kind of tangential, but it boggles my mind that Republicans/conservatives are quick to pull Lincoln out of their hats to prove a point, but seem to try their hardest to forget that Teddy Roosevelt ever existed, what with him, a Republican, being the one of the greatest environmentalists and anti corporation people in the history of the nation. A Republican president that liked to use federal regulations must be a sore point.
    Wir müssen wissen. Wir werden wissen.
    Quote Originally Posted by auBerg View Post
    You are a certified crackpot that is subservient to the manipulators of science who are dreaming to control knowledge.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Nostop it View Post
    I'll compromise with you on that and focus on bad regulation instead of most or all. But the minimum wage would have to be one of those regulations unfortunately. Due to the evidence.
    There is 0 evidence that a minimum wage acts as a significant impediment to progress. There is some argument that it can be an impediment to small business startups, but raising the initial funds is already a barrier. Wages will always be another barrier, minimum wage or not.

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  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Nostop it View Post
    I'll compromise with you on that and focus on bad regulation instead of most or all. But the minimum wage would have to be one of those regulations unfortunately. Due to the evidence.
    What evidence would that be?
    Quote Originally Posted by diddle View Post
    I am a liberal, I vote democrat. That doesn't mean I agree with the ludicrously naive belief that a full-time job entitles one to the concept they should be able to entirely support themself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nostop it View Post
    Cooking is a skill? In wow maybe.

  7. #187
    Epic! diddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I would suggest you stop kidding yourself.
    Very insightful retort? I am a liberal, I vote democrat. That doesn't mean I agree with the ludicrously naive belief that a full-time job entitles one to the concept they should be able to entirely support themself. Capitalism is a cold mistress, you are given as much as your personal skill set gives to the economy.
    Last edited by diddle; 2014-02-02 at 07:23 AM.
    "The problem with a rational mind is that it can rationalize anything."

    "I have an IQ of 145, and a PhD - but when I go to wipe my ass more often than not I will get poop on my hand."

  8. #188
    Legendary! vindicatorx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garnier Fructis View Post
    Shitty jobs aren't going to do themselves. Someone has to do it so you don't have to. But fuck them, right?
    See the thing about that is those people who opt to work those shitty jobs didn't do anything to be able to get a better job. I used to be one of them I'm in my 30's and about to graduate from college.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Garnier Fructis View Post
    Give me some explicit examples of regulations that are in place simply to keep out competition. The reason I ask is that most people I ask either cannot give me details about the regulation boogeyman, or they tell me "environmental regulations", which is a vague subset of the regulation boogeyman. I'm not going to deny that there are bad regulations, such a notion is obviously bullshit. But if you're going to rail against something, you should be able to give a legitimate example of your grievance.

    As a side note, I was listening to KPBS (or NPR? One of those) and the interviewer had a republican congressman on the show. She asked him if he could give one example of an unconstitutional act committed by Obama, and he proceeded to fall completely flat on his face because he couldn't name a single one; his only response was that they had a list compiled. Why compile a list if you're not gonna read it?
    I get asked this all the time and if you think about it they're common. Why do I need a taxy license to charge someone for a ride in my car? Why do I need a license to sell someone some tacos I made? The list goes on and on and there just that simple. If the epa sees an "endangered" species on my land I can't build anything on it like a business or apartments w/e.

  10. #190
    Only watched the first 4 minutes so far and it is already using the same misleading tactics it is saying others use, which I will say they do. The 22 dollar an hour minimum wage is cheery picking and he has some good points there but saying that a 40 billion dollar increase in spending is trivial in a 14 trillion dollar economy is ludicrous and misleading. For one that is a 14 trillion GDP, or gross domestic product not spending and giving the minimum wage workers a 40 billion dollar boost in spending would definitely increase their economic impact and make a noticeable difference for the economy.

    The other misleading point is saying that its just increasing the wage of minimum wage workers, while that is true its not realistic. Most people don't make the minimum is also misleading as most people make just above or around the minimum and raising the minimum would mean raising these as well, the entire bottom would come up with a new minimum so the 40 billion increase would be closer to 250 billion and that is a very low estimate without calculation, it could actually be closer to a trillion increase after a short period of wage adjustment after the increase. This would be a huge increase to the stagnant economy and is exactly what is needed.

    Its very clear that even unskilled workers are not being paid fairly and that short term profit focused companies are not only hurting their long term profits but the economy as a whole by paying the lowest possible wages and generating max quarterly profits most of which is not put back into the economy but paid to rich investors and ends up in overseas banks, taxed at a much lower rate because of the lower capital gains tax.

    Half of all stocks are owned by the one percent. The middle class doesn't have a stake in these corporations anymore. Its time to change that by paying employees what they are worth and giving them stock in their own companies so they're success is tied together. Employees make far less now than they use to at every level while CEO profits have gone from 20 times the average worker to over 400 times in some cases. While it may be a great model for CEOs, the middle class, the economy and even the companies themselves are hurt by this model and raising the minimum wage is a good start to getting back on the right track. Though a max wage would get there much faster, or a near max wage (90% top tax bracket), like in Denmark and 1950s america.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrysia View Post
    There is 0 evidence that a minimum wage acts as a significant impediment to progress. There is some argument that it can be an impediment to small business startups, but raising the initial funds is already a barrier. Wages will always be another barrier, minimum wage or not.
    you didn't watch the video did you?

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Nostop it View Post
    I get asked this all the time and if you think about it they're common. Why do I need a taxy license to charge someone for a ride in my car? Why do I need a license to sell someone some tacos I made? The list goes on and on and there just that simple. If the epa sees an "endangered" species on my land I can't build anything on it like a business or apartments w/e.
    You need those licenses to ensure that the product/service you are providing are in compliance with federal standards for safety and health. Licenses are their to ensure a minimum quality of good.

    The EPA protects endangered species because biodiversity is important to the health of the planet, which we and our children will have to live on.

    3DS Friend Code: 0146-9205-4817. Could show as either Chris or Chrysia.

  13. #193
    Scarab Lord Garnier Fructis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vindicatorx View Post
    See the thing about that is those people who opt to work those shitty jobs didn't do anything to be able to get a better job. I used to be one of them I'm in my 30's and about to graduate from college.
    That is pretty awesome, but I think the problem still remains: even if everyone worked to get a better job, there are not enough better jobs and someone still has to do the bad ones.
    Wir müssen wissen. Wir werden wissen.
    Quote Originally Posted by auBerg View Post
    You are a certified crackpot that is subservient to the manipulators of science who are dreaming to control knowledge.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Nostop it View Post
    you didn't watch the video did you?
    I did. I'm simply not convinced by it.

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  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Nostop it View Post
    I get asked this all the time and if you think about it they're common. Why do I need a taxy license to charge someone for a ride in my car? Why do I need a license to sell someone some tacos I made? The list goes on and on and there just that simple. If the epa sees an "endangered" species on my land I can't build anything on it like a business or apartments w/e.
    This doesn't even make sense.

    Every tax has a purpose. Which taxes specifically are you referring to?

    Taxes on vehicles used for business would be to pay for the wear and tear on infrastructure (roads).
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    Unfortunately for you, dictionaries are not authorities on the definitions of words.
    Ezekiel 23:20, Ezekiel 16:49-50, Mark 10:25, James 5:1-6, Luke 16:19-31, Matthew 19:21, Numbers 5:11-31

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Nostop it View Post
    you didn't watch the video did you?
    Small business is hurt by the fact that they pay taxes while their large competitors don't or are subsidized, plus have lobbyists etc.. Basically large corps have unfair advantages over their competition. Remove corporate taxes and set the top tax bracket to 90% going down on a sliding scale and competition would increase exponentially furthering development and economic growth.

    As it currently stands the top tax bracket is so low they hardly pay taxes, not to mention lower capital gains taxes and that they don't even pay their fair share to SS.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Decklan View Post
    This doesn't even make sense.

    Every tax has a purpose. Which taxes specifically are you referring to?

    Taxes on vehicles used for business would be to pay for the wear and tear on infrastructure (roads).
    I think he meant a taxi license for providing paid transport to people.

    3DS Friend Code: 0146-9205-4817. Could show as either Chris or Chrysia.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by plat0nic View Post
    Actually its not silly at all. Anyone with half a brain working minimum wage should damn well be complaining. The cost of living vs. the minimum wage is absolutely rediculous. Your comment makes no sense, you are ignorant. You think people who are struggling to find work, who accept a job at rock bottom, don't want more?? If labour unions still had any power fast food workers and gas stations attendants nationwide would walk out and refuse to work until the minimum wage was raised to 15.00 an hour. The bare minimum it takes to do anything besides feed, clothe oneself and afford rent.
    The problem is this mentality. It's not ridiculous. Minimum wage isn't set there to be livable standards. Min wage is there as a minimum requirement by law places are forced to pay employers. These same jobs aren't meant for people to live comfortably or even live off the wage alone. You need to work multiple jobs if you're not going to put any effort into making yourself a better employee. Also if minimum wage was raised to $15 an hour, the only people it would hurt is the already crumbling middle class. EVERYTHING would be inflated more than it already has been due to the insane hike in minimum wage. On top of that it would absolutely crush the middle class because they would get nothing out of it except the loss of more money. Minimum wage jobs such as a gas station attendee or mcdonalds worker aren't meant to provide for a family, they are meant for kids in school or retired people who dont care where they work, it's a part time job for something to do. They aren't meant for a 29 year old to provide for their family. Get off your ass and try to be a better worker. It doesnt mean you have to stay at mcdonalds or walmart. Sometimes you need to seek new employment at a different company to make more money.

  19. #199
    Epic! diddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garnier Fructis View Post
    That is pretty awesome, but I think the problem still remains: even if everyone worked to get a better job, there are not enough better jobs and someone still has to do the bad ones.
    It is a tricky issue, as we either have to accept the faults of capitalism or hit the nail on the head when it comes to implementing socialist policies. Unfortunately as far as capitalism goes, humans are just as susceptible to supply and demand as any other resource. The more humans there are in an economy's workforce, the less each is worth.
    "The problem with a rational mind is that it can rationalize anything."

    "I have an IQ of 145, and a PhD - but when I go to wipe my ass more often than not I will get poop on my hand."

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrysia View Post
    You need those licenses to ensure that the product/service you are providing are in compliance with federal standards for safety and health. Licenses are their to ensure a minimum quality of good.

    The EPA protects endangered species because biodiversity is important to the health of the planet, which we and our children will have to live on.
    My 2010 hyundai elantra doesn't comply with federal standards for safety and health? My full coverage insurance doesn't cover me and my passenger and the other driver in the other car should the accident be my fault? Are you going to tell me the Department of Homeland Security provides homeland security? You cannot be that naive going against people who have everything to lose like big corporations.

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