Will the next class be the last class in WoW?

[Teriz]

Yet we're still left with an identity that people are attached to that the Warrior, Rogue and Mage do not represent. The Demon Hunter shares this identity.

Rogues do represent this identity, as do Monks and Enhancement Shaman. DW agility melee is hardly scarce in this game.

The Demon Hunter identity was molded into the Warlock class.

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Two instant cast shadow damage spells.

Warlocks' version used mana, had a CD, and had a secondary horror effect.

DK version used runic power, was resource limited, and had a secondary effect of healing friendly undead targets. (Minions, or the DK himself when he popped Lichbourne. That was a pretty tanking CD back in the day).

The two spells fired in a visually similar way, and might have even shared an icon back in Wrath, too, IIRC.

Um, they're still NOT the same ability.

My point is, Blizzard is demonstrably okay with the same name (and visuals?) on functionally dissimilar spells. And, as I've pointed out before, Warlock Meta has gone through a significant mechanical redesign. Metamorphosis in WoW is not an exact and permanently defined thing, and thus it's reasonable to think that Blizzard could implement a DH version alongside warlocks that, which sharing a name and even visuals, is functionally very different.

No they couldn't. Metamorphosis turns a Warlock into a Demon. Metamorphosis turned a DH into a Demon. Its the same ability.

The function of the ability is to turn a character into a demon and infuse them with demonic powers. You can't make that functionally different and still call it metamorphosis.

[Thimagryn]

No they couldn't. Metamorphosis turns a Warlock into a Demon. Metamorphosis turned a DH into a Demon. Its the same ability.

The function of the ability is to turn a character into a demon and infuse them with demonic powers. You can't make that functionally different and still call it metamorphosis.

Warlocks have the same ability as the Warcraft 3 Demon Hunter. Except they don't regenerate hit points quickly. Or have splash damage.

So a WoW Demon Hunter transformation that regens health and deals splash damage but maintains melee range would be a different ability, right? And it still adheres to the Warcraft 3 concept, without conflicting with the Warlock. It can even be explained that they do so by using the runes on their bodies, as a method to maintain the form without tapping into 'Demonic Fury'.

Turning into a Demon is no different than Summoning Elementals. It boils down to the methods and application.

[Teriz]

Warlocks have the same ability as the Warcraft 3 Demon Hunter. Except they don't regenerate hit points quickly. Or have splash damage.

So a WoW Demon Hunter transformation that regens health and deals splash damage but maintains melee range would be a different ability, right? And it still adheres to the Warcraft 3 concept, without conflicting with the Warlock. It can even be explained that they do so by using the runes on their bodies, as a method to maintain the form without tapping into 'Demonic Fury'.

Turning into a Demon is no different than Summoning Elementals. It boils down to the methods and application.

Except Warlock metamorphosis DOES provide splash damage for a variety of its spells;

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=124917/...sis-chaos-wave
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=103967
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=109797


Additionally, Grimore of Sacrifice allows the Warlock to merge with a demon and regenerate HP more quickly.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=108503/...e-of-sacrifice

So again, Warlocks already do everything the DH is supposed to do.

[Gospels]

OP...your post had absolutely ZERO to do with the title of your thread.

Also, no it wouldn't be the last class

[Thimagryn]

Except Warlock metamorphosis DOES provide splash damage for a variety of its spells;

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=124917/...sis-chaos-wave
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=103967
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=109797


Additionally, Grimore of Sacrifice allows the Warlock to merge with a demon and regenerate HP more quickly.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=108503/...e-of-sacrifice

So again, Warlocks already do everything the DH is supposed to do.

And Mages can already do everything a Shaman is supposed to do. Summon Elementals, turn enemies into critters, cast Fire and Frost spells, use magical Shields. Of course both Shamans and Demon Hunters would have the ability to fight in melee, wear mail/agi gear and dual wield, but none of that matters right? Warlocks already have that covered.

Plus, you've ignored all lore reasoning once again. Demon Hunters would not sacrifice demon pets to heal themselves, it's not an indicative part of their identity. We have not been show any Demon Hunter to do that sort of thing.

[Teriz]

And Mages can already do everything a Shaman is supposed to do. Summon Elementals, turn enemies into critters, cast Fire and Frost spells, use magical Shields. Of course both Shamans and Demon Hunters would have the ability to fight in melee, wear mail/agi gear and dual wield, but none of that matters right? Warlocks already have that covered.

Mages can't use totems. Mages can't use Wind magic. Mages can't use restorative water magic. Mages can't use spirit magic. Mages can't fight in melee range, Mages can't use Earth magic. Mages can't use nature magic. etc.

In short, there's a lot of things Shamans can do that Mages cannot do.

Plus, you've ignored all lore reasoning once again. Demon Hunters would not sacrifice demon pets to heal themselves, it's not an indicative part of their identity. We have not been show any Demon Hunter to do that sort of thing.

They aren't pets, they're minion, or slaves. Nothing more than a source of power for their master.

We already have examples of Demon Hunters having demonic minions. Are we seriously going to believe that a Demon Hunter wouldn't utilize them to empower themselves?

[Talen]

You have effectively dismissed every critical difference that makes a Demon Hunter different from a Warlock.

Name one other than the melee/ranged differentiation.

They both share the DH look, they both share Warlock and DH abilities, they both share a theme, concept and design space. They both share the same motivations. They both come in good and bad flavors.

That is all taken from the canon, from the game, from the novels, from Blizzard itself.

Other than the ranged/melee aspect, which is something that can easily be addressed via a spec as it has been with other classes, what critical difference between the two do you see that renders the pairing impossible?

The simple answer is that there isn't any critical difference.You have two classes, each of whom draws power from demons but simply uses it in a different fashion.

It's not an overlap if the Demon Hunter represents one aspect of a core class, and if the core theme of the Demon Hunter is not solely based on 'Demons'.

Yeah...good luck trying to fit another them into the DH without rebuilding it from the ground up and undermining the existing depiction.

Again I point to Heroes of the Storm's Illidan, whose gameplay (and identity) focuses on imbuing weapons with power, using 'Mark of Azzinoth' to deal extra damage and having dash-attacks. This shows he is primarily an agile fighter who uses Demonic power to enhance his combat abilities. Even his ultimate shows this, as the Demon Form is purely a visual indicator for an AOE Damage Leap and Attack Speed buff.

And? There is nothing there that cannot be attributed to a Warlock based melee combat spec. You are, after all, talking about a gameplay element. Gameplay which can be attributed to any class given the appropriate passive and active abilities. As would happen with any implementation of the DH whether it be a spec based system or a class based system

You focus overly much on gameplay elements which can be given to any class or spec with little difficulty...including the Warlock.

All we require from this core class is space for an Agile Fighter who Augments their weapons/themselves with power. The Demon Hunter represents one spec dedicated to Demonic power. This would satisfy theme, lore and gameplay without conflicting with any other class.

Except the Warlock. Which is a class dedicated to Demonic power. I don't see how you can dismiss that. You literally cannot create a spec or class based upon Demonic power without also attributing that power to the main class. Even if you could somehow do that, there is no way you can do so without having the spec itself conflict with the Warlock.

And we don't want that to happen.

EJL

[Thimagryn]

Mages can't use totems. Mages can't use Wind magic. Mages can't use restorative water magic. Mages can't use spirit magic. Mages can't fight in melee range, Mages can't use Earth magic. Mages can't use nature magic. etc.

In short, there's a lot of things Shamans can do that Mages cannot do.

Right. And by saying Warlocks can Dual Wield and Tank is assuming that Mages could use Totems, Wind Magic and Restorative Water Magic, simply because it is "Magic." The implication does not work because class identity stands in the way of that ever happening, just as it stands in the way of Warlocks being one and the same as Demon Hunters. Warlocks are not meant to be agile melee fighters, as Demon Hunters are. Simply fighting in melee space doesn't mean anything, I could auto attack with a Priest in melee but I would never call that 'being a Paladin'.

We already have examples of Demon Hunters having demonic minions. Are we seriously going to believe that a Demon Hunter wouldn't utilize them to empower themselves?

We've had examples of NPCs from Vanilla having Demon pets. That does not exist now.

[Talen]

Right. And the Demon Hunter, as a WoW class, may derive their powers from a different source of demons than that of Warlocks.

At this point, I feel that you are really dragging the barrel to try and come up with some argument for your point of view

Demon Hunters can't be Warlocks because they use "different" demons.

EJL

[Thimagryn]

There is plausibility to have more than one method of Demonic Transformation. Evidence is in the game, considering Warlocks learned the method from Illidan post-Skull of Gul'dan, while Demon Hunters learned it during the War of the Ancients.

The crux of this concept has never changed. I have always maintained that Demon Hunters use different methods from Warlocks. You were the one who said they're the same because of reasons 'Demons'.

[Silversorrow]

The only thing I AM 100% sure of is that the next class added to wow WILL be a MAIL CLASS!!!!! It really is the only thing that makes sense and I'm sure no one would disagree with that....oh wait I forgot where I was......I'm on the forums.........SOMEONE WILL disagree with me even if it's just for the sake of disagree'ing with me.

[Talen]

My point is, Blizzard is demonstrably okay with the same name (and visuals?) on functionally dissimilar spells.

Actually - they aren't. It happens, but Blizzard don't like it. It causes confusion, it leads to expectations ("Why can't my spell X do the same as his spell X") and it adds nothign of value to the game.


Its not a mjaor issue but it is something Blizzard tries to avoid.

Metamorphosis in WoW is not an exact and permanently defined thing, and thus it's reasonable to think that Blizzard could implement a DH version alongside warlocks that, which sharing a name and even visuals, is functionally very different.

Regardless of the name or exact effect, the question is simple.


Is there a gampelay need that needs to be addressed by having this DH clss geta functional copy of the Warlocks iconic Metamorphosis spell.


The answer is "no".


A standalone DH class won't get a Meta spell for the simple reason that Blizzard isn't going to tick off the Warlock players. If there was a gameplay need for it? Sure. But without that...DHs would learn to do without.


Meta belongs to the Warlocks and its going to stay that way.

Fair enough. I've spent the last few weeks on a "let's-work-13-hour-shifts" kick, so couldn't have responded then either. Thank the Light it's my day off today.

Yeah...thats coming up shortly too.

That IS important. It would certainly take determined care and effort on Blizzard's part to make sure current WoW players aren't confused by two iterations on Meta. (Frankly, WC3 is irrelevant at this time.) The name and the image of a big, black and purple demon are certainly tied to the Demo tree now.

Which is partly why there'd be no need for Blizzard to take care or effort. A standalone DH class simply wouldn't get the spell.

Does a DH class need a purple-demon spell called Metamorphosis to reflect those two, and the whole of DH history?

The problem here is that Meta is part of what players want from the DH class. A part of what makes it cool and iconic for DHs. That and the existing lore and implementation makes it important to the class.


But it isn't critical. Blizzard would work around it.

A rose by any other name smells just as sweet.

Yea...and regardless of what it was called, warlock players would look at it and see "That ability turns them into demons. That's **MY** special ability."


Unless you can present a defined gameplay need, it isn't going to happen. Lore, flavor, game history and so aren't enough to avert that. Gameplay is, but gameplay doesn't demand the move.

That said, I'd still like to see the next class be ranged/heals. Demon Hunters can come after that.

I would anticipate the next class, if it ever happens, would be a tech based class with a ranged combat spec. If you want a rough guide - imagine the D3 DH using pistols instead of crossbows or the RPG based Gunman.


As for DH? I don't see any likelihood of that ever coming into being as a class.

For the specific DH/Hunter comparison, I can't see it confusing even casual players who have been in the game for a while. Newcomers may have some confusion, but even the general descriptions on the character creation page will help to alleviate that.

Its newcomers who you largely need to worry about. While you and I may see it as a minor issue, it's still a concern Blizzard has to consider.

A large number of the 90+ million who used to play WoW may sit up and take note if a DH class comes down the pipe.

If the game isn't strong enough to hold their attention without a DH, it won't be strong enough with a DH.

Betrayer Regalia is a statless cosmetic set. It is literally a costume.

A costume which gives the Warlock the look of a DH. Kilt, tattoos, horns. It's all there.

If Blizzard ever goes back to putting recolored old tier sets in as dungeon drops (and I wish they would), they could make that an appropriate DH armor.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Warlock challenge mode reward should be given to everyone? The odds of that happening are low.

Go the the Stormwind's Cathedral, Ironforge's Mystic Ward, or any Argent outpost in the Plague Lands or Northrend, and you'll see Paladins and Priests working and fighting along side each other.

They fight alongside rogues, spies, asssassins, warlock adn death knights as well

In fact, lore says the first paladins, the Knights of the Silver Hand, were born from training knights to wield the Holy Light, and priests to be martial combatants.

Yes. And the share the same belief system. Which is why they all use Holy magic. In just about every other consideration, they are different classes with very different design spaces.

But that doesn't negate the connection paladins have to their priestly kin within their races/religions.

The connection is lore based and represented in game by the shared use of Holy. However, as far as the design space goes....the class concepts, abilities, tools, theme, lore, heroes, motivations and more are all different.


You have three points of crossover.


1: Some priests trained to be Paladins - 30 game years ago
2: They both use Holy magic.
3: They can both Heal.


Shall we compare the DH and Warlock again?


They have the same theme, have the same look, work off the same base concept, draw power from the same source, use the same abilities, have the same motivations, and so on. Oh - and they also share the same schools of magic.

Did monks really add anything unique?

The Martial Arts theme for one. Which is more than just "unarmed". I also note you went to the trouble of specifying European Martial Arts for warriors. Which isn't quite the theme the Monks explore.

DHs had no place in Wrath, Cataclysm, MoP, or WoD. But in a potential Legion-centric expansions, there will be so many quests, and so much new lore, that such a class could be richly developed, and still have enough storytelling left over for warlocks and paladins and all other fighters or users of evil to get their share of the spotlight.

Is there ANY story there that Warlocks couldn't explore? Is there any such story where Warlocks would not be a little bit miffed that Demon Hunters were being used instead of them?

Ultimately, I argue for the DH, not because I desperately want it, but because I believe that in the big picture there is plenty of room for lots of new things to be added in WoW.

Paraphrasing Blizzard - WoW cannot handle an infinite number of classes. There is a limit. A limit I feel we are fast approaching. It may be 11. I think 12 would work.


I do not see a 13th class being very likely for a long period of time. Instead, I can see tweaks to the existing class system, maybe with additional specs representing different roles or aspects. Using the DK to create a Necromancer spec for example.


Regardless of whether there will be 12 classes or 112....I do not think Blizzard will add a class to the game unless thta class can develop its own identity. Blizzards already cast doubt on the design space available to the DH, already mentionad the exiting overlap and already ruled out a DH class in the near term - which means its likely not being considered for the Xpac after WoD either.

So as for me, I'll hold on to my optimism on the subject, and kindly ask that all the naysayers remember that they have no better grasp on what will be, so there's no purpose in trying to quash what could be.

We have what Blizzard has stated. Blizzard has pointed out major issues with the DH concept and flat out stated its isn't being considered as a class.

End of the day? Blizzard could easily create a DH class with unique gameplay and add it to the game. But if you do that with its existing design space you annoy existing players. And if you don't, yo destroy the basis of what people expect from a DH.

This is a no-win situation. You end up with a DH class that isn't a DH...or you end up with a DH and a community filled with angry rogues and warlocks worried that the new kid will get all the best toys and tread on their toes.

Blizzard doesn't need the grief, Blizzard already sees the issues and problems arising from this and Blizzard already has a workaround available to it.


EJL

[Thimagryn]

Yea...and regardless of what it was called, warlock players would look at it and see "That ability turns them into demons. That's **MY** special ability."

Summoning Elementals has been a part of the Mage kit since Warcraft 1, when Conjurors did it. The Water Elemental is a defining part of the Frost tree, the only spec where a permanent WE pet is allowed. Now we have Shamans summoning Elementals as well. I haven't seen one Mage complain about it, despite it being an iconic part of the Mage throughout the RTS series.

I think you give Warlock fans too much credit to think that they are too uppity to coexist with any other class/spec with transformation abilities and using fel magic. It only makes sense for a Demon Hunter, what other possible non-Warlock class would?

[Talen]

Summoning Elementals has been a part of the Mage kit since Warcraft 1, when Conjurors did it. The Water Elemental is a defining part of the Frost tree, the only spec where a permanent WE pet is allowed. Now we have Shamans summoning Elementals as well. I haven't seen one Mage complain about it, despite it being an iconic part of the Mage throughout the RTS series.

Summoning WATER Elementals has been part of the Mage kit - and they have it and so no reason to complain.

Conversely, I have seen Shamans complain about the fact they can't get part of their toolkit - water elementals - because Mages have it.

Why do you think Warlocks would be any different when it came to seeing Demon Hunters using THEIR spells? Exploring their theme. Taking their looks. Benefitting from ideas and concepts that could be used to help them?

EJL

[Jubilo]

I really hope not, wanna see some kind of black mage implemented :S

[Teriz]

Right. And by saying Warlocks can Dual Wield and Tank is assuming that Mages could use Totems, Wind Magic and Restorative Water Magic, simply because it is "Magic." The implication does not work because class identity stands in the way of that ever happening, just as it stands in the way of Warlocks being one and the same as Demon Hunters. Warlocks are not meant to be agile melee fighters, as Demon Hunters are. Simply fighting in melee space doesn't mean anything, I could auto attack with a Priest in melee but I would never call that 'being a Paladin'.

You couldn't because there is no aspect of the priest class that is designed to fight in Melee, and there's nothing within the priest class that indicates Paladin influence.

However in the case of Warlocks, Dark apotheosis IS designed for Melee combat, and the glyph that allows that to happen is called Glyph of Demon Hunting.

We've had examples of NPCs from Vanilla having Demon pets. That does not exist now.

I'm pretty sure the DH NPC with demon minions is still in the game.

[Thimagryn]

However in the case of Warlocks, Dark apotheosis IS designed for Melee combat, and the glyph that allows that to happen is called Glyph of Demon Hunting.

Two abilities in melee. That's like saying Bomb throwing and using Lightning Generator trinket means Engineering is designed for combat.

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Why do you think Warlocks would be any different when it came to seeing Demon Hunters using THEIR spells? Exploring their theme. Taking their looks. Benefitting from ideas and concepts that could be used to help them?

EJL

Nothing says Demon Hunters demon form would take their looks. Case in point, Illidan has taken multiple forms over the course of Warcraft. He has appeared both as the Shadow demon and as a Demonic version of himself. I would be inclined that the Demon Hunter's Demon Form would be a demonized version of the player character, similar to how Shadow Form retains the look of the player.

[Talen]

I would be inclined that the Demon Hunter's Demon Form would be a demonized version of the player character, similar to how Shadow Form retains the look of the player.

A standalone DH class would not be getting Metamorphosis.

EJL

[Teriz]

Two abilities in melee. That's like saying Bomb throwing and using Lightning Generator trinket means Engineering is designed for combat.

FYI, Enhancement Shaman also only have two Melee abilities.

Additionally, Grimore of Sacrifice grants Warlocks The pursuit ability, so DA locks actually have three Melee abilities.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=103129

[Jtree]

Is there ANY story there that Warlocks couldn't explore? Is there any such story where Warlocks would not be a little bit miffed that Demon Hunters were being used instead of them?

This question requires speculation to answer, but I do believe the two can coexist. A new expansion is a big story, and it needs a lot of things going on to fill it. Building on the differences between the two classes via in game could easily serve to enhance the warlock class as well, in the eyes of all players, even those who haven't tried either one.

In Wrath, the Argent Crusade and the Ebon Blade had different origins, but a common goal. They had their own storylines, but also served to push each other forward. A hypothetical Legion-focused expansion could develop groups like the Black Harvest and the Dark Embrace in such a manner. As a bonus, a DH class offers the chance to dig into Night Elf history as well.

End of the day? Blizzard could easily create a DH class with unique gameplay and add it to the game. But if you do that with its existing design space you annoy existing players. And if you don't, yo destroy the basis of what people expect from a DH.

Everything Blizzard does annoys some group of players. Every expansion, every class development, every spell tweak upsets someone.

Fortunately, Blizzard doesn't run the game based solely on forum complaints. They do what they believe is good for the game. If a point comes where adding a DH class will be good for the story, for balance or functionality, or just for sales, it'll happen. Until then, it's on the shelf, along with tinkers and timewalkers and Burning Legion expansions and who-knows-what-else.