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  1. #1

    Guardian Dps/Other tanks dps "Comparison"

    Hello every one.

    So this is me:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/pt/characte...%C3%A6t/simple

    A Guardian Druid pushing hc modes with my guild currently sitting at Norushen Hc mode, trying to down him.
    And what is bringing me here, is like the title says, my dps has a tank, what it kinda concerns me in hc progression.

    I just finished raiding and we couldnt kill Garrosh 25 normal mode and my dps was around 200k Dps. So the other Tank, a Prot Pala: http://eu.battle.net/wow/pt/characte...Sighild/simple he ended up in second place with 350+ dps. That's insane for a tank, but yeah hes using dps gear and gemming haste etc, hes even using the dps back. But srly? 350k dps? Thats like bringing another dps into the raid without sacrificing ur tanks spot.
    So in my tanking way of thinking, i should say, ur a tank, mind ur job has a tank, avoid damage taunt in time..dont die. But has a raider and wanting the best for my raiding group, if i could place my dps in a level of competition with other pure Dpsers, abusing Vengence Buff, i would!

    But honestly, i cant just wear "dps" gear has my own tanking gear is already a dps gear lawl. I could surely use a dps trinket and the legendary back but even then, i dont think im talking about a 150k dps increase just with those 2 switches.

    What is your opinion guys? What can i do? if there is anything i can do? Should i stick to the tradicional "Tank" way of thinking? Or try to push my dps up neglecting some tank items/gems?

    I would really apreciate some light on this, tks every one.

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    A) Paladins "gear" is basically dps gear- pure haste/mastery, with hit/exp caps.

    B) The garrosh fight can lead to significant dps differences based solely on who tanks garrosh during phase 1- was it you? Was it the paladin? If the paladin was tanking garrosh AND AoEing the adds during phase 1, he will have a huge dps lead over you- not only because of the whopping garrosh vengeance he gets, but also because of the large amount of AoE damage he is doing. (A lights hammer on normal garrosh during the add phase is easily 100k dps by itself, if not more)
    Not only that, your strat in the following phases also matters- if he has garrosh full time during phase 2/3, he will get quite a bit more dps out.

    As for gear.. Multistrike trinket and legendary cloak gives me about 20% more dps over not having them. Thats a boost up to 240k, but not the 350k range you are looking for.

    Finally.. As for tank dps, Paladins are WAY up there when they have high vengeance and a few adds beating on em. They've basically been number 1 for most of the expansion, alongside monks. Warriors have only recently taken the top spot, and thats mostly with a heavy crit build, letting them use more HS, have higher enrage uptime, and do more damage.
    Oh, one last thing- maul usage. Using maul on CD compared to not using maul at all is a 20% dps increase, 30% if you always have 1 other target with the maul glyph. Using it on CD compared to only using on TC procs is smaller, in the range of 10%, but its still an increase.

    In 10 man progression content, tank dps can def mean the difference between a wipe to enrage and barely meeting enrage. 25 man progression, tanks have to survive first and formost.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  3. #3
    Speaking from both a Prot Pally and Bear perspective, Bear DPS will trump pally DPS on every single fight unless your specific strategy involves one tank getting significantly more vengeance. Prot pallies are the worst DPS class this tier hands down. The only heroic fight I've done more on is Solo tanking H Thok on my pally.

    As for specifically Garrosh, NEVER look at overall DPS. The only statistic that matters is damage done to Garrosh. As a druid you should easily knockback the adds into the Ironstar and they should be low enough from residual DPS.

    Also if you want a more in depth analysis you will need to post some logs.

  4. #4
    Ill see to that ( logs) next week. The garrosh fight was an example since the 300k mark is in almost every fights of SoO. The range of the dps that the prot pala does oscillates between 200+ and 300+k.. its really sick in a good way.

    And it tends to make me a bit frustrated in the long turn, even knowing that he takes way more damage then i do. I stick to the thought of being a better tank since its my main porpouse( To survive and withstand alot of damage ). But damn 300k dps has tank, its pure diamond.

    Ill post some logs the sooner i can!

  5. #5
    Good way to improve DPS is soaking anihilates in intermission. If you have 50% reduction form adds and +-1mil HP you need only SW for survive and then SW + bark maybe external CD.
    Then 5+ stacks of Gripping Despair for huge vengeance and DPS boost.
    Jurman - Guardian Druid <Black Division>

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurman View Post
    Good way to improve DPS is soaking anihilates in intermission. If you have 50% reduction form adds and +-1mil HP you need only SW for survive and then SW + bark maybe external CD.
    Then 5+ stacks of Gripping Despair for huge vengeance and DPS boost.
    As Raugnaut said, there are many factors that determine how overall DPS will turn out at the end of an encounter (especially if there's a large portion of DPS that's wasted DPS). Garrosh is a prime example, since all the damage going into the adds in P1 can inflate the overall DPS of a tank and may be useless damage if Iron Stars would kill them anyways. Now, adds damage in the ToeS heart room is actually meaningful in many cases if you flirt with an ability boundary. Overall, getting Garrosh dead is the most important, and unless you're severely lagging behind another tank when sharing similar active tanking times, there's no real concern.

    Now, the reason I quoted the above is that it's an example of how Guardians can maximize damage output. In my specific case, my gear allows me to technically not need any CD's while sitting in the Annihilates... although I try to use something like Barkskin just to make it safer. It's one of those mechanics where using excessive damage reduction (as in you could get away with just using Barkskin, but you use Rook's + SI instead) actually hurts your Vengeance gains or make your Vengeance go down, so knowing your limits is key. I'd honestly use the legendary tanking cloak if you're going to experiment initially, because it will allow you to mess up once. Also keep in mind you'll get hit twice: once by the main Annihilate, and shortly after by the AoE version that hits the entire raid. While you can technically time it if you're good with latency and hit FR before the AoE version hits, it's safer to assume you'll get hit by both at the same time.

    What I specifically do is make sure I have aggro on Garrosh when you can attack him again in a heart room, since you can actually get hit and proc the tanking legendary meta prior to Annihilates going out: that's 14 seconds of free damage reduction. If your raid uses Rallying Cry as a specific time during the phase, it may allow enough HP buffer to avoid using damage reduction, and Might of Ursoc can allow a similar buffer. While this may seem like a "who cares? just blow CDs!", proper usage and sometimes a bit of luck is the difference between 500k peak DPS and 1mil peak DPS during that phase (probably lower in 10man,but the concept is the same)... which, assuming another tank taunts off of you when you exit the room before getting hit, you'll have 20 seconds of massive Vengeance. You'll be paying it forward with massive T&C procs for your co-tank, too, so no complaints for them.

    From a general perspective rather than a specific fight-by-fight view, the design of tanks in MoP has sort of lead us to find ways to maximize damage output doing things that are very counter-intuitive to traditional tanking. Even from what I discussed above, what tank in their right mind would have purposefully sat in a mechanic meant to be avoided prior to Vengeance? WoD will hopefully change this mindset a little, but until then actively tanking and getting hit by things that yield Vengeance (all while surviving and not wiping your raid) is the name of the tanking game for MoP. Perhaps your pally tank is doing similar tricks already, but without logs we cannot definitively say anything beyond suggesting possible scenarios.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  7. #7
    You can't ask "How can I improve my damage" and not post logs...

    And it tends to make me a bit frustrated in the long turn, even knowing that he takes way more damage then i do. I stick to the thought of being a better tank since its my main porpouse( To survive and withstand alot of damage ).
    Overall damage taken is generally irrelevant to the durability and skill of a tank. The best "tanks" understand the nature of burst damage and do an excellent job preventing it. Of course you won't take as much damage, since most damage comes from white attacks and your mastery will mitigate a ton of that passively. Not to mention all of the attacks you will avoid due to SD, and avoidance is associated with the lowest damage taken.
    Last edited by trystero; 2014-02-04 at 05:07 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    Overall damage taken is generally irrelevant to the durability and skill of a tank. The best "tanks" understand the nature of and prevent burst damage. Of course you won't take much damage since most damage comes from white attacks and your mastery will mitigate a ton of that passively.
    This. You are probably seeing his higher DPS if he is just the main tank... It's really all vengeance. On Galakras as BrW I am pulling 500k+ just because of Jade Wind and Keg Smash on all the little adds, doesn't take any skill to press two buttons on cooldown, and my gear is 560ilvl.

  9. #9
    As everyone said, garrosh dps is really dependant on who tanks him when adds are out.. if he tanks most adds as well, you dont stand a chance.

    Bears are in a good spot in terms of dps though, contrary to popular belief. For garrosh 25m normal they seem to be the second best dps tank:

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Garro...00011111000000

    40k dps above paladins : P

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    It's one of those mechanics where using excessive damage reduction (as in you could get away with just using Barkskin, but you use Rook's + SI instead) actually hurts your Vengeance gains or make your Vengeance go down, so knowing your limits is key.
    This would be true if vengeance was calculated from unmitigated damage. But you gain the same vengeance regardless of defensives used, so the above statement is false.

    How do so many tanks so know little about vengeance...

  11. #11
    So has i said, here it is the log from yesterday raid, starting at Malkorok!

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/p2zdwfp2h61o54f8/

    - - - Updated - - -

    Garrosh finally down. Today i used the Dps legendary cloack. This was the result :

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5ocgpen1mwu84bhf/
    Last edited by Nuclearseal; 2014-02-05 at 03:27 PM.

  12. #12
    Looks like he is tanking about 50% more of the fight and doing 50% more damage. He is the better vengeance whore.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Baretank View Post
    This would be true if vengeance was calculated from unmitigated damage. But you gain the same vengeance regardless of defensives used, so the above statement is false.

    How do so many tanks so know little about vengeance...
    We should start a Vengeance thread, because your statement is not empirically true. Damage reduction and/or avoidance sometimes has no affect on Vengeance, but it can lower or actually increase Vengeance gains. Specifically for H Garrosh Annihilates, it's around when I reach >= 500k Vengeance where using anything greater than 20% damage reduction drops my Vengeance with each smash. If you're getting hit by the first smash and you're popping major CDs, your Vengeance will go up regardless because you won't have much of any Vengeance worth mentioning... once you have something established it can be detrimental, which is anything roughly above 500k for me. Best way to is try it at that Vengeance level, I'll start dropping like a rock into the 400kish area using SI/Rook's during the middle/late Annihilates... otherwise, if I can get away with using 20% DR's or less I can achieve over 750-800k Vengeance coming out of those intermission phases.

    *edit* - More directed at the OP, the pally tank is actively tank a LOT more, he's gonna innately pump out more damage.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2014-02-05 at 02:59 AM.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  14. #14
    Maybe I'm missing something but vengeance is calculated before any damage reductions so be it 20% reduction or 50% reduction you gain the same vengeance. Vengeance is 1.5% of the unmitigated damage taken in the last 20 seconds. The only cool down that should affect it are max HP altering effects like MoU which increase maximum possible vengeance, but this is only in regards to the cap.

    Maybe I'm wrong and maybe the tooltip is wrong, but I don't think so.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Baretank View Post
    Maybe I'm missing something but vengeance is calculated before any damage reductions so be it 20% reduction or 50% reduction you gain the same vengeance. Vengeance is 1.5% of the unmitigated damage taken in the last 20 seconds. The only cool down that should affect it are max HP altering effects like MoU which increase maximum possible vengeance, but this is only in regards to the cap.

    Maybe I'm wrong and maybe the tooltip is wrong, but I don't think so.
    I thought the same thing as you do for quite a while, then my raid wanted to see if we could survive certain situationsw/o using CDs (the whole e-peen tanking competition we have on the side contributed to this ), and we noticed that our Vengeance was actually higher in situations, like Annihilates, when using less DR cooldowns... you also get bored after +150 wipes on a boss, it breaks the tedium! Seems to act in a similar fashion with many yellow/special attacks, as they can stray from the typical auto-attack Vengeance mode and yield AP benefits more on the mitigated side... the gains are typically not very tangible except in extreme cases. Even the auto-attacks model doesn't 100% follow the rules expected of Vengeance all the time, but it's the most consistent by far.

    Regardless, despite personally abusing it, I'll be glad when sitting in bad things goes away to some degree with Vengeance not counting towards tank DPS output. I'd imagine there still will be times when we'd still increase our Vengeance through unorthodox means for defensive reasons, but I could confidently assume that the majority of Vengeance inflation is for pure DPS gains right now and a significant decrease in the practice will come in WoD. It might also help with situations as the OP describes, where a tank feels like a spare wheel just because there isn't equal tanking time.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  16. #16
    Mitigation effects do not reduce vengeance gained. Annihilate on heroic gives me the expected 157500 vengeance every time, regardless of which cooldowns are up.

    A few months ago I spent some time studying my video recordings to confirm some of the precise vengeance mechanics. Here is an example of the data I recorded. It's from Annihilate in the Terrace of Endless Spring (second intermission).
    Code:
    vengeance before hit  | vengeance | corresponding    |   cooldown
    (amt, time remaining) |   after   | vengeance gained |      up
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    121937, 9.6s             215935         157405              SI
    215935, 16.4s            333683         156616              SI
    333683, 16.4s            430564         156944              SI
    430564, 16.4s            509974         156912              SI
    509974, 16.4s            573810         155631         barkskin, MoU
    573810, 16.4s            626862         156338         barkskin, MoU
    626862, 16.4s            670110         156083         barkskin, MoU
    670110, 16.4s            706884         157394         barkskin, MoU
    (vengeance gained, of course, is calculated as <vengeance after hit> - <vengeance before hit>*<time remaining>/20s)

    There's some variance in the figures arising from small uncertainties in the time remaining (since I don't display the time to better than .1s resolution, and latency would make this unreliable anyway) and from Annihilate's very small damage range, but you can see that the vengeance gain is essentially the same regardless of which cooldown is up. Moreover, I'm only showing personal cooldowns -- there are also other mitigation effects like the indomitable meta or devotion aura. If mitigation effects affected vengeance, the vengeance gains should be varying wildly -- but they don't vary at all.
    Last edited by Aseyhe; 2014-02-05 at 09:13 AM.

  17. #17
    Thanks for the data, nice to know vengeance does what it says it does.

  18. #18
    That said, damage increasing effects typically do increase vengeance gained. So for example, you get more vengeance from Malkorok if you keep his Fatal Strike stacked. Since these are conceptually not much different from mitigation effects, I would not be surprised if it were possible for some mitigation effects to affect vengeance.

  19. #19
    Would the intermission debuff on Garrosh cut vengeance gains in the same manor then?

  20. #20
    Its alot about "scumbaging" vengeance, taking as much damage as you can and still survive, by gimping my other tanking buddy abit my deeps get brought up instead

    Heroic Galakras http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...e=11420#Alouna
    Heroic Norushen http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...&e=4401#Alouna
    Normal Shamans http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...&e=6320#Alouna

    My paladin is at 570 ilvl and ~50% haste, in the end its basically about how much you gimp your offtank that decides what your tank dps will be
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...louna/advanced

    Edit: Might want to throw in that "Mysticguard" was the other tank and as you see his dps kinda suffers due to my shenanigans
    Last edited by Erke; 2014-02-05 at 11:12 AM.

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