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  1. #181
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    I've been saying that for the entire game.

    "Once again PVE changes gimp PVP"

    All of those buffs to hunter damage this patch made them extremely dominant in PVP.

    You PVErs aren't special snowflakes, the game does not revolve around you.

    PVP has been miserable for this entire expansion so that mindless button mashers can have perfect DPS balance to stroke their epeens to.

    SOO has been out for long enough for people to have had their time with it.

    Now it's our time. The last season of the expansion, and I expect it to be decent.

  2. #182
    Brewmaster Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    This is actually a case of "Pve screwed Pve" and not what's actually being stated in this thread. I'll explain.

    If they just left Arms alone and didn't buff Slam/Mortal Strike/Seasoned Soldier/Deep Wounds Blizzard would never have nerfed Warrior utility. Warriors were absolute dogshit in 5.3 but of course Blizzard buffed Arms Warrior damage because I guess that 5 Arms Warriors that competitively raid were mad that the spec was shit. So inevitably Warriors became Overpowered in PvP because the only time Warriors are overpowered in PvP is when their damage is out of control and effortless.

    And that is why they need to take down Warrior utility because of their damage that never needed a buff. Nobody plays or likes Arms in pve. They should've literally fucking ignored it but they didn't and now I have to deal with all of these retards clamering about how "Warriors have more control than Rogues." It's utter nonsense.

    All of these complaints about Warrior mobility/survivability/control would literally go away if they reverted every single Arms damage buff. Hell they could keep the Slam buff but remove everything else and the complaints would still go away.

    People need to get through their thick fucking skulls that the difference between the 5.3 and 5.4 warrior mobility/control wise is almost nothing other than the shield Wall/reflect change and hamstring change. Yes, Warriors actually had a 12 second charge, 30 second heroic leap, a fear, two interrupts, 25 second reflect, a stun in 5.3 when they were dogshit. I know this is a hard concept to grasp for some people but the Warrior toolkit is absolute shit compared to any other class other than probably DK.
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  3. #183
    Stood in the Fire
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    I really have to agree with Ryan on that PvE buff screwing over the utility. Tried to explain to my guildmate few months back that the "Warrior OP" issues were really only there because of buffed raw damage to PvE side, making other classes harder time to ignore that wet noodle warrior hitting your healers. You can have some CC or damage, but if you have enough of both it is going to feel unfair for some people.

    However I don't agree on the part that damage is out of control. I still think Arms is still underperforming on PvE and would need hard SCALING FIXES - didn't really need these raw buffs (except the AoE part). Hell, everyone said that Arms was bad even on 1st tier on MoP, but I still can remember topping our raidgroup meters very frequently on every boss. On 2nd tier already showed that Arms was nerfed into oblivion, by removing that Heroic strike stacker and everyone was forced to switch into Fury for the rest of the tier/expansion. "It's going to be a buff for PvE" my ass.

    So then... the 3rd tier came up and they buffed it up again. I was a bit happier than before, but still wasn't convinced. I could see that it would cause problems on PvP and not fix BiS damage disparity between Arms and the other specs. Because of that lazyness we're now paying the price.

    Funny thing is: they don't have to nerf the damage on next season, because of the increased Ilvl. Arms warriors are going to fall behind on damage vs. other specs. So tuning these changes and making it effectively only a PvE nerf actually feels out of place. I'm guessing they're getting hit hard on PvP complains about warriors and have to do something, but they cannot convince that the ilvl increase would actually fix the issue.

    But I guess time will tell how it will look like again.
    Last edited by Kankipappa; 2014-02-10 at 01:35 AM.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    This is actually a case of "Pve screwed Pve" and not what's actually being stated in this thread. I'll explain.

    If they just left Arms alone and didn't buff Slam/Mortal Strike/Seasoned Soldier/Deep Wounds Blizzard would never have nerfed Warrior utility. Warriors were absolute dogshit in 5.3 but of course Blizzard buffed Arms Warrior damage because I guess that 5 Arms Warriors that competitively raid were mad that the spec was shit. So inevitably Warriors became Overpowered in PvP because the only time Warriors are overpowered in PvP is when their damage is out of control and effortless.

    And that is why they need to take down Warrior utility because of their damage that never needed a buff. Nobody plays or likes Arms in pve. They should've literally fucking ignored it but they didn't and now I have to deal with all of these retards clamering about how "Warriors have more control than Rogues." It's utter nonsense.

    All of these complaints about Warrior mobility/survivability/control would literally go away if they reverted every single Arms damage buff. Hell they could keep the Slam buff but remove everything else and the complaints would still go away.

    People need to get through their thick fucking skulls that the difference between the 5.3 and 5.4 warrior mobility/control wise is almost nothing other than the shield Wall/reflect change and hamstring change. Yes, Warriors actually had a 12 second charge, 30 second heroic leap, a fear, two interrupts, 25 second reflect, a stun in 5.3 when they were dogshit. I know this is a hard concept to grasp for some people but the Warrior toolkit is absolute shit compared to any other class other than probably DK.
    if you don't see the problem with warriors having charge stun+shockwave+storm bolt+pummel+disrupting shout+reflect+mass spell reflect AND root/snare breaking intervene all available to use at the same time on short cooldowns, you're being unreasonable.

    we don't need to be able to lock shit down for 37 years. we need to do high damage so people can't sit there and tank us and we have to use 14 spells in a row used in a perfect combo to be able to take them down.

    additionally, if they reverted the damage buffs we would be just as shitty as we were in the last season because even with all our cc there would be no threat of ever dying with terrible damage.

    they need to remove some cc and let us crush people when we're fortunate enough to be in melee range with them.

    we need to be a high damage class with some amount of durability and some amount of control.

    before the ds nerf (AKA right now) we were a high damage class with super high control and pretty damn good durability.

    i'd rather keep the damage than the retarded stunlock pre diminishing returns rogue endless cc train.


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  5. #185
    Brewmaster Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kankipappa View Post
    I really have to agree with Ryan on that PvE buff screwing over the utility. Tried to explain to my guildmate few months back that the "Warrior OP" issues were really only there because of buffed raw damage to PvE side, making other classes harder time to ignore that wet noodle warrior hitting your healers. You can have some CC or damage, but if you have enough of both it is going to feel unfair for some people.

    However I don't agree on the part that damage is out of control. I still think Arms is still underperforming on PvE and would need hard SCALING FIXES - didn't really need these raw buffs (except the AoE part). Hell, everyone said that Arms was bad even on 1st tier on MoP, but I still can remember topping our raidgroup meters very frequently on every boss. On 2nd tier already showed that Arms was nerfed into oblivion, by removing that Heroic strike stacker and everyone was forced to switch into Fury for the rest of the tier/expansion. "It's going to be a buff for PvE" my ass.
    When I said that Arms damage is out of control, I mean pvp wise, not pve wise. I'll be completely honest, I don't care about pve. This is why I'm biased towards nerfing Arms Warrior damage to keep its utility/mobility/control. I just don't understand why people play Arms in Raids when Fury is almost always better and supposedly from all of the raid heroes, Fury has a much higher skill cap than Arms.

    Aside from me being an idiot and actually addressing your post, I don't think you can really fix Arms Warrior scaling with the way the spec is designed and how rage works now. Seasoned Soldier is the reason Arms scaling is so bad because it's basically a passive ability that says "You're scaling is effected by your weapon." This is why Frost DK's scale so shitty with gear too. Specs like Sub Rogues/unholy dk's have stuff like Sinister calling/unholy might, actual passives that effect primary stats.

    Basically Arms and Frost DK's are throttled to however hard their abilities hit because of their passives and do the best at lesser gear levles when compared to other specs. But they pay a heavy price for that damage wise with BiS gear when compared to other specs. This is why they buffed Slam and MS because they can't really fix the specs scaling issues without redesigning the spec completely. And I personally think Blizzard is completely okay with this.

    This is why I just can't understand why anyone would want to seriously raid with the Arms spec after understanding this. I'm not completely against buffing Arms damage but I still believe they went to far with it that it ruined pvp balance. They could've kept the Slam buff and the seasoned soldier buff, but the MS and deep wounds buff was unnecessary. And unfortunately that would mean Arms warriors like you who raid would be screwed even more.

    There's basically no real way that both parties win. Blizzard sided with you but you still don't get to win because Arms still sucks at high end raiding because of how the spec is designed. And this is why I feel as though Blizzard sometimes doesn't even understand their own game.

    Funny thing is: they don't have to nerf the damage on next season, because of the increased Ilvl. Arms warriors are going to fall behind on damage vs. other specs. So tuning these changes and making it effectively only a PvE nerf actually feels out of place. I'm guessing they're getting hit hard on PvP complains about warriors and have to do something, but they cannot convince that the ilvl increase would actually fix the issue.
    I don't want them to nerf damage because I know they won't. You're correct that Arms is going to fall behind with the higher pvp item level, so I'm assuming Arms is going to be back to 5.3 status because it just simply cannot compete with other melee in a competitive setting when its damage is lower or on par with them. That is why I feel these Warrior utility nerfs are somewhat unnecessary considering Sub Rogues already have a superior tool kit and are now going to deal even more damage than Warriors with the higher item level.

    If they don't seriously nerf the Rogue tool kit before the next season, Warriors are going back to 5.3 pvp status. I can bet anyone on that.
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  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I just don't understand why people play Arms in Raids when Fury is almost always better and supposedly from all of the raid heroes, Fury has a much higher skill cap than Arms.
    Arms is only a little behind Fury single target and far outshines it when you have multiiple targets. Depending on your raid comp, Arms may very well be the best choice for a raiding warrior.

    With that bieng said, I completely agree that the changes made to arms in order to make it more PVE viable ended up breaking the spec for PVP. I don't understand why they didn't follow these buffs with PVP modifiers much like they did with the find weakness debuff from Sub rogue's. They were able to buff Sub Rogue's in order to make them more viable for PVE without breaking them in PVP. It would be nice if they could have done the same for Arms.

  7. #187
    Pandaren Monk Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    Arms is only a little behind Fury single target and far outshines it when you have multiiple targets. Depending on your raid comp, Arms may very well be the best choice for a raiding warrior.
    This is not entirely true, but there are a few encounters which Arms can shine on yes. In near/full BiS, Arms is not too far behind Fury but it's much easier to do as Fury, and Fury is much burstier which is generally better, especially for progression.
    Arms excells at sustained damage but not burst. In most raiding situations it does not get the chance to put out that sustained damage unless 1) your raids DPS is severely unbalanced (ie: high dps warrior, low dps other raiders), or 2) your guild purposefully gimps its raid dps for the purposes of (usually) rankings. Arms excels at Cleave DPS but it needs to have high uptime and has very strict targeting requirements to push its potential dps.
    These two things don't generally happen very often. As is there are a scant handful of Warriors in the world playing Arms at a level that competes with Fury and that is very telling.

    With that bieng said, I completely agree that the changes made to arms in order to make it more PVE viable ended up breaking the spec for PVP. I don't understand why they didn't follow these buffs with PVP modifiers much like they did with the find weakness debuff from Sub rogue's. They were able to buff Sub Rogue's in order to make them more viable for PVE without breaking them in PVP. It would be nice if they could have done the same for Arms.
    This is pretty true, but Arms sorely needed its buffs and even those didn't help nearly as much as people might think. If its cost is a slight hamper to its ability to interrupt casters, I don't see that as a huge loss.

    As I said before though, I personally just don't think they went about it the best way. This is an argument that will never be won however.

  8. #188
    I like playing arms in pve from time to time, and I know alot of warriors preffer arms to fury but just dont play it because its usually not as good. It feels very refreshing to play a different spec and something I hope continues, ie that arms can situationally be better dps. Although arms single target is really quite dull, the aoe rotation feels good and that is the reason to play arms in the first place this tier.

    I was arms in t14 normals, before the tfb nerf and I liked that rotation where a big part of single target was managing tfb, which was engaging and rewarding. While tfb was totally op in pvp that was definately a pvp change that takes away from pve. Like somene said they dont care for pve, I dont care for pvp in wow so from that perspective we are going to place the blame on eachother.

    Afaik most warrior changes this expansion where pvp related. Leap nerf, shockwave, tfb etc. Most of which dont break the game pve wise but took away from the fun eigher way.

  9. #189
    I havent done any raids this patch but seriously? This needs an entire thread devoted to the most minor change EVER in the history of changes affecting pve? Is there no other class that has an interrupt, the warrior needs to have 2 or suddenly he's useless? O damn the 2 dks and 2 rogues in the raid have to use their interrupts now the warrior can only get one. The mage might actually have to use CS, lordy lord. The only thing I can think of is not being able to maintain rude interruption as easily since it doesn't work with disrupting shout even though interrupting on CD would still maintain it, but seriously. Overractions everywhere.

    10 pages no less. Looking through it seems to have devolved into a pvp vs. pve in class changes which I suppose was expected seeing the title.

    Afaik most warrior changes this expansion where pvp related. Leap nerf, shockwave, tfb etc. Most of which dont break the game pve wise but took away from the fun eigher way.
    Leap damage nerf was 100% pve. The damage is literally not even a thing for pvp; I wish it did no damage so it wouldn't break ccs. Shockwave, who outside of prot uses that in pve? When would you ever use it outside of multiple targets and getting the cd reduc anyway? TfB was broken; I remember seeing people in pve threads complaining about it too. People in general need to stop looking for things to complain about when they are so ridiculously minor for pve in comparison to gamechanging for pvp and vice versa.
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  10. #190
    Oh the irony. Posting in a thread complaining about the number of people posting in a thread complaining

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Hand Banana View Post
    Shockwave, who outside of prot uses that in pve? When would you ever use it outside of multiple targets and getting the cd reduc anyway?
    When you're spec with Shockwave, you don't want to sit on your talen until there are 3+ adds, because even with 1-2 targets it's a dps increase and a stun.

    In CMs, it already happened that I used SW to aoe stun but one of the add died at the same moment, putting Shockwave on cd for the next pack. Not a big nerf, yes, I agree. But that makes the talent really clunky and less enjoyable as you have a lot of factor to consider before pushing the button (will I need it soon? Ok, have I three targets? Ok, are there all exactly in the cone? Ok.) They are able to make a talent act differently depending on the spec, they should have kept the 20s in prot spec and that would have been a far better fix.
    The problem with the new nerf is the same, it's very very clunky and not enjoyable. Again, in CM I will have to ask myself "do I need an aoe interrupt soon?" each time I want to kick a spell with a 1-target interrupt, which is really counter intuitive.
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  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Hand Banana View Post

    Leap damage nerf was 100% pve. The damage is literally not even a thing for pvp; I wish it did no damage so it wouldn't break ccs. Shockwave, who outside of prot uses that in pve? When would you ever use it outside of multiple targets and getting the cd reduc anyway? TfB was broken; I remember seeing people in pve threads complaining about it too. People in general need to stop looking for things to complain about when they are so ridiculously minor for pve in comparison to gamechanging for pvp and vice versa.
    I am very certain that there was a lot of pvp related whine as well about hl hitting hard during cooldowns and being another off gcd ability. You might have missed that in the sea of pvp tears though.

  13. #193
    ya pvper's are the biggest cry babies. i hate when they blow up vent "man mages are BS", "omg hunters need a nerf!"

    have to leave channel all the time. im like, if you hate it so much why do it!?! sounds like you're getting owned in pissed off all the time

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by chewie49 View Post
    ya pvper's are the biggest cry babies. i hate when they blow up vent "man mages are BS", "omg hunters need a nerf!"

    have to leave channel all the time. im like, if you hate it so much why do it!?! sounds like you're getting owned in pissed off all the time
    I kinda hope thats sarcasm since this is a nearly 11 page thread about the most minor change to a class ever affecting pve. You seriously miss out on 1 pummel every 40 seconds using disrupting, thats 1 melee interrupt from 1 raid/party member every 40 seconds. Doesn't get more minor than that.

    I am very certain that there was a lot of pvp related whine as well about hl hitting hard during cooldowns and being another off gcd ability. You might have missed that in the sea of pvp tears though.
    You are correct; the damage was a thing back in the TfB and avatar root immunity and 20 sec cd on shockwave days (god how could they even let that stuff go live is beyond me). Except it was so minor compared to those other things that it wouldnt have affected pvp much if it had stayed while the others were nerfed. No blizz didn't want HL to be part of a warriors pve rotation as I remember them specifically saying.

    In CMs
    Ok I suppose in CMs these things affect pve a little more drastically. Except CMs are even smaller of a "minigame" as people like to call pvp. I would rather see a minor utility nerf for CMs (that from your post increases the skillcap of the warrior by making you think, not a bad thing) to balance a huge issue in pvp like 20 second shockwaves.
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  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Hand Banana View Post
    I kinda hope thats sarcasm since this is a nearly 11 page thread about the most minor change to a class ever affecting pve.
    Yeah right because there certainly were no posts from people being touched in a bad spot by warriors.

  16. #196
    I agree with the spirit of the poster that PvP and PvE need to be separated.
    Blizzard is already hypocritical in this regard saying "it's too cumbersome" or "players don't want to have to learn different skill sets", and yet there are abilities in the game right now that function quite differently in PvE and PvP.

    FFS Blizzard, just separate the two sides of the game so you can balance it fairly on both sides.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by cFortyfive View Post
    Yeah right because there certainly were no posts from people being touched in a bad spot by warriors.
    Its all about the degree to which it matters. Arena rep at the beginning of this season for warriors was like 35% of all players over 2k. Imagine a 25 man raid with 8 dps warriors, thats literally the degree with which they were overpowered/overrepresented. Of course there is going to be people complaining about warriors being too strong in pvp. A change like this which will most likely change 0 about pve raiding in any meaningful way is a nice fix for a warrior package that has too many tools for pvp especially in addition to poor gear scaling come next season.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Getting the phrase "PUSSY DESTROYER" tattoo'd on your face isn't a smart move for your career.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Hand Banana View Post
    I kinda hope thats sarcasm since this is a nearly 11 page thread about the most minor change to a class ever affecting pve. You seriously miss out on 1 pummel every 40 seconds using disrupting, thats 1 melee interrupt from 1 raid/party member every 40 seconds. Doesn't get more minor than that.
    I don't really mind that Disrupting Shout put Plummel on cd, tbh.
    What bothers me is that Plummel put Dirsupting Shout on cd. Basically, using a minor utility spell prevent you from using a major utility spell.
    That's clunky and counter intuitive. It damages the gameplay.

    Changes like this and the Shockwave one add up. On the long run, they make the gameplay more frustrating and less enjoyable.
    Obviously, these are not gamebreaking changes (well, people progressing on first transition phase of Garrosh HM won't like it at all, so it's not THAT minor, but still) but these are still bad changes. Not because they nerf but because they make bad band aid to fix pvp problem and which damage our pve gameplay.
    I really hope they will get this straight in WoD instad of keeping these stupid changes. I don't care if I'm nerf as long as it makes sense and it's well done.
    Last edited by Senen; 2014-02-13 at 12:14 AM.
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  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    I don't really mind that Disrupting Shout put Plummel on cd, tbh.
    What bothers me is that Plummel put Dirsupting Shout on cd. Basically, using a minor utility spell prevent you from using a major utility spell.
    That's clunky and counter intuitive. It damages the gameplay.

    Changes like this and the Shockwave one add up. On the long run, they make the gameplay more frustrating and less enjoyable.
    Obviously, these are not gamebreaking changes (well, people progressing on first transition phase of Garrosh HM won't like it at all, so it's not THAT minor, but still) but these are still bad changes. Not because they nerf but because they make bad band aid to fix pvp problem and which damage our pve gameplay.
    I really hope they will get this straight in WoD instad of keeping these stupid changes. I don't care if I'm nerf as long as it makes sense and it's well done.
    I get what you are saying, but you have to look at it from a pvp angle too. I mean, these changes are very big things in pvp; the shockwave change especially. Warriors went from having a decent stun in throwdown in cata to having the best stun bar none in the game on the shortest cd which is something they definitely did not need. The change set it back to being decently balanced and allowed the other talents to be somewhat viable. That change, while affecting pve, doesnt do much; like I said how many people even spec shockwave? I'm guessing not many. It seems a purely pvp talent to me in comparison to bladestorm and DR.

    As for disrupting, I would be fine with it replacing pummel instead of being separate with maybe a slight increase on the cd like 5 seconds. So instead of 2 abilities that cause the CD of the other you get an aoe interrupt on a 20 second cd and thats it. That would still be reasonableish for pvp and probably even a buff for pve. But back to back interrupt ability is too much.
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  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Hand Banana View Post
    I get what you are saying, but you have to look at it from a pvp angle too. I mean, these changes are very big things in pvp; the shockwave change especially. Warriors went from having a decent stun in throwdown in cata to having the best stun bar none in the game on the shortest cd which is something they definitely did not need. The change set it back to being decently balanced and allowed the other talents to be somewhat viable. That change, while affecting pve, doesnt do much; like I said how many people even spec shockwave? I'm guessing not many. It seems a purely pvp talent to me in comparison to bladestorm and DR.
    They could have made the "20s in prot spec, 40s in dps spec" change, which would have made far more sense, and not really "more complex".
    I don't see any problem with it in pvp. Flag barriers prot avoid the nerf bat, that's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand Banana View Post
    As for disrupting, I would be fine with it replacing pummel instead of being separate with maybe a slight increase on the cd like 5 seconds. So instead of 2 abilities that cause the CD of the other you get an aoe interrupt on a 20 second cd and thats it. That would still be reasonableish for pvp and probably even a buff for pve. But back to back interrupt ability is too much.
    The "Plummel becomes Disrupting shout, cooldown 20s" seems also perfect to me, maybe even 30s.
    It would still be a nerf in most situations, but it would be good in some situations (Garrosh, CMs, etc) and bad in some (Protectors, etc). So, that makes speccing into it a choice with pro and cons, but while you've spec for it, it works fine, no clunky gameplay.
    There would remain the "why nerf the only talent interesting in pve in lvl45-tier?" question, but I guess this tier will be changed in WoD anyway, it's too meaningless right now in pve.
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