Thok's Tail Tip for WW?

[Enpoli]

I've heard from various people that Thok's trinket is BiS for WW monks when we get into heroic 570+ gear. I wouldn't be too surprised if it is, since AoC and TeD are both pretty lackluster trinkets for us. I know the proc isn't nearly as strong for us as an agility proc would be, but that flat 9% crit damage has to be huge when we're pushing 60+% crit chance.

But when I look through the Armory of several of the top-parsing monks, *no one* seems to have it. Is it just rare and the strength guys are getting them first? Or is it not actually our best-in-slot trinket?

[Nangz]

My understanding is that monks nowadays run with multiple trinket setups and you may not be seeing what they are actually using. Want to know for sure? Find their logs.

[Enpoli]

For WW? Why would you ever change out trinkets unless *maybe* you want to put on a cleave trinket. But even then, usually Haromm's will be the way to go because of Storm, Earth, and Fire. The ONLY "good" thing about TED is you can snapshot the high stack with FoF... except even then, because the amount of agility ticks down (instead of building up) you can't really plan around a proc and delay an ability to get a really high stack like you can with building-proc trinkets. I plan on picking up a Thok trinket simply because it will be nicer to play with, even if it won't be a whole lot "better" than my TED.

[Jocias]

One of the big reasons you don't see many WW with Thok's is that the strength users would riot if an agility user got it over them. I have a heroic non-wf on my ww monk, but I don't expect to get a hwf for a long time since we only have a couple strength users that have been lucky enough to get them. Also, it's not a massive increase in DPS over TED. It's only a DPS increase of at most like 3%, which isn't really that noticeable (an extra 9k dps if you're doing 300k dps) outside of sims and the like.

For WW? Why would you ever change out trinkets unless *maybe* you want to put on a cleave trinket. But even then, usually Haromm's will be the way to go because of Storm, Earth, and Fire. The ONLY "good" thing about TED is you can snapshot the high stack with FoF... except even then, because the amount of agility ticks down (instead of building up) you can't really plan around a proc and delay an ability to get a really high stack like you can with building-proc trinkets. I plan on picking up a Thok trinket simply because it will be nicer to play with, even if it won't be a whole lot "better" than my TED.

Cleave trinket is good on Protectors and Galakras. The static secondary of mastery on the TED makes it pretty lackluster. Getting more haste from Thok's lets you put more into crit, and you get higher crit damage on top of that. Also, I could be wrong on this, but I don't think your clones mimic the multi-strikes from Haromm's.

[Hinalover]

Also, I could be wrong on this, but I don't think your clones mimic the multi-strikes from Haromm's.

As of right now, they do not. Supposedly in 6.0 they will.

[Deleted]

I've heard from various people that Thok's trinket is BiS for WW monks when we get into heroic 570+ gear. I wouldn't be too surprised if it is, since AoC and TeD are both pretty lackluster trinkets for us. I know the proc isn't nearly as strong for us as an agility proc would be, but that flat 9% crit damage has to be huge when we're pushing 60+% crit chance.

But when I look through the Armory of several of the top-parsing monks, *no one* seems to have it. Is it just rare and the strength guys are getting them first? Or is it not actually our best-in-slot trinket?

It's 4.5% crit damage. From 200% to 209%. It's f'd up, but that's how it works.

[Jocias]

It's 4.5% crit damage. From 200% to 209%. It's f'd up, but that's how it works.

You hit for 100k. You crit for (100k * 2) = 200k. With Thok's, you crit for (100k * 2.09) = 209k.

It's a 9% additive crit modifier, but 209% is only a 4.5% multiplicative increase over 200%. It's f'd up, but that's just how percentages work .

[Deleted]

You hit for 100k. You crit for 200k. With Thok's, you crit for 209k.

It's a 9% crit modifier, but 209% is only a 4.5% increase over 200%. It's f'd up, but that's just how numbers work .

It says that it increases crit damage by 9%. % = percentage, pp = percentage point. They use %, which means it should be used as a multiplicative bonus, but that's a topic for combining it with agile primal diamond.

Increasing a 100 crit with 9% would be 109.

A crit is 100% damage of a crit, not 200% of a crit. Therefore, "9% amplified critical damage" is 9% higher damaging crits, not 4.5% like Blizzard has implemented.

It's f'd up, but that's just how very basic elementary school math works and Blizzard aren't capable of doing it.

(And it makes me mad, because I'm a fire mage with ~90% crit on my pyroblasts during my opener)

[Jocias]

It says that it increases crit damage by 9%. % = percentage, pp = percentage point. They use %, which means it should be used as a multiplicative bonus, but that's a topic for combining it with agile primal diamond.

Increasing a 100 crit with 9% would be 109.

A crit is 100% damage of a crit, not 200% of a crit. Therefore, "9% amplified critical damage" is 9% higher damaging crits, not 4.5% like Blizzard has implemented.

It's f'd up, but that's just how very basic elementary school math works and Blizzard aren't capable of doing it.

(And it makes me mad, because I'm a fire mage with ~90% crit on my pyroblasts during my opener)

You quoted me just before I edited my post. There's additive and multiplicative increases to percentages. Since it modifies the ratings and not the overall percentages of your haste, mastery, and spirit, it can't really do this in any way but multiplicatively. In the case of your crit, this number is measured in a flat percent. 200%, to be precise. In this case, Blizzard used an additive 9% to crit instead of a multiplicative, because 18% increased crit damage would make the trinket too damn powerful.

[Deleted]

You quoted me just before I edited my post. There's additive and multiplicative increases to percentages. Since it modifies the ratings and not the overall percentages of your haste, mastery, and spirit, it can't really do this in any way but multiplicatively. In the case of your crit, this number is measured in a flat percent. 200%, to be precise. In this case, Blizzard used an additive 9% to crit instead of a multiplicative, because 18% increased crit damage would make the trinket too damn powerful.

It doesn't matter if the trinket would be too powerful, it doesn't matter if it's an additive or multiplicative bonus, the result should be the same.

If it said increased critical damage bonus, then yes, you and Blizzard would be right, if the bonus is an additive bonus (which it is). But it's increased critical damage, not increased critical damage bonus. The critical damage bonus is 100% additional damage on top of the hit. The critical damage is hit damage + critical damage bonus. The critical damage bonus is 100% of the critical damage, it's not 200% of the critical damage. Therefore, a 9% bonus would be 109%.

I'm not arguing math with you now, I'm just a very annoying guy that has gotten stuck up over the fact that they've misworded the tooltip. I can't help it, but whenever they state a tooltip wrong, it makes me irritated.

Yes, 109 (218%) would be OP considering how crit works and I don't think they made a mistake trying to implement the effect of the trinket by typing 209 instead of 218.

But still, just sayin' yo.

[Jocias]

The way crit is calculated is [non-crit damage] * [crit multiplier]. It's not [non-crit damage] + [bonus crit damage]. This comes from the way the game rolls your chance to miss, dodge, parry, glancing blow, block, crit and hit, respectively. It has to get through miss, dodge, parry, glancing blow (for melee white attacks), and block before it can even roll for crit.

For melee, if they are hit and expertise capped and behind the boss, the combat table for special attacks looks more like: crit or hit. The game basically rolls a number between 0 and 1. If that number falls within the percent value of crit converted to a decimal, then you crit.

From the above example, let's say your crit is 64% against a raid boss, which would be 67% on your character sheet. Any number the game rolls between 0 and .64 would be considered a crit. Any number above that would be considered a regular hit.

The formula for hits looks like this: (Base_Dmg + ((Attack_Dmg + Flat_Modifiers) * coefficient)) * (%_buff1) * (%_buff2) ... * (%_buffN)

The formula for crits looks like this: (hit formula) * (Crit_Bonus) .

So, when the game rolls a crit for any action, it calculates damage as [non-crit damage] * [crit multiplier]. The crit multiplier is just changed from 200% to 209%, which is a 9% additive increase.

[Deleted]

I know it's calculated like that. I'm just saying it shouldn't be. :P

[Jocias]

I know it's calculated like that. I'm just saying it shouldn't be. :P

If that were the case, I'd be demanding the damn thing over strength users instead of waiting patiently.

The interplay between Thok's and the Agile Primal Diamond is also something that interests me. I've just done some quick math for it, and I'm not sure if it's completely accurate, but does using the Agile Primal Diamond ever become better than using the Capacitive Primal Diamond with Thok's? I'm pretty sure that Agile stacks multiplicatively after the additive bonus from Thok's, which means h wf Thok's + Agile = 215.27% crit damage.

In full BiS, I should have 16,331 crit rating and 33,784 agi, which comes out to be 63.52% crit chance to a raid boss with flask, food, and raid buffs. With Agile giving an extra 6.27% crit damage and reducing my crit chance by about .507%, that would come out to an overall damage increase of 3.93%. The other thing to consider is the value of 216 agi vs. 324 crit. Both of those number become almost neglibile when you consider 30.5k agi and 16k crit rating that I get from my BiS. So, I guess the question is: Is a 3.98% damage increase worth losing the Capacitive? It doesn't look like it, unless I screwed up my math somewhere.

[Deleted]

If that were the case, I'd be demanding the damn thing over strength users instead of waiting patiently.

The interplay between Thok's and the Agile Primal Diamond is also something that interests me. I've just done some quick math for it, and I'm not sure if it's completely accurate, but does using the Agile Primal Diamond ever become better than using the Capacitive Primal Diamond with Thok's? I'm pretty sure that Agile stacks multiplicatively after the additive bonus from Thok's, which means h wf Thok's + Agile = 215.27% crit damage.

In full BiS, I should have 16,331 crit rating and 33,784 agi, which comes out to be 63.52% crit chance to a raid boss with flask, food, and raid buffs. With Agile giving an extra 6.27% crit damage and reducing my crit chance by about .507%, that would come out to an overall damage increase of 3.93%. The other thing to consider is the value of 216 agi vs. 324 crit. Both of those number become almost neglibile when you consider 30.5k agi and 16k crit rating that I get from my BiS. So, I guess the question is: Is a 3.98% damage increase worth losing the Capacitive? It doesn't look like it, unless I screwed up my math somewhere.

I dunno, everything changing crit seems to just raise the x2.0 multiplier, which means almost every single crit bonus in the game stacks additively. I'd be surprised if the meta gem is stacked multiplicatively.

Either way, I think someone made calculations on meta gems for every class/spec and the only spec that came close to benefiting more from a regular meta gem was a destro lock and the legendary meta was still 1% better. BiS gear on all calculations of course.

Also, how do you figure 3.93% damage increase? 3% crit damage would mean your crits would hit plain and simply 3% harder if it stacks multiplicatively. If it stacks additively it would hit 2.87% harder and if it is a simple 3 point addition to the 209 value, then it'd be a 1.44% increase.

3% harder crits with 63.52% means a dps increase of 1.9056%, assuming you have no abilities with an added chance of crit and no agi procs.

[Totaltotemic]

I never put much thought into TTT because of how odd it is being a strength trinket, but it keeps coming back to haunt me so I've decided to take another look.
For the purposes of this post I am ignoring the fact that AAs work differently with glancing blows and I am also ignoring the fact that TTT has many more decimals beyond the 2.09. For more accurate results simply take the equations and substitute the full number.

Now, a word about calculating crit amplification. The first time I looked at TTT I glossed over this fact and called the 9% amp with 50% crit a 4.5% damage increase, but that was wrong for two reasons. Firstly, as Megamisama pointed out, 200% to 209% is a 4.5% damage increase, not 9%. Secondly, 50% crit does not actually account for 50% of damage, but it's actually much more. So I'm going to do this right this time.

For these purposes, a normal hit will be 1, and a crit will be 1 * [crit modifier]. With no amplification, this makes 50% crit be (50 + [50 * 2.00]) = 150.
This is a standard method of determining the gain that 1% crit will provide, as (49 + [51 * 2.00]) = 151, and 151/150 = 1.0067, making it a 0.67% DPS increase.

We can use a similar method to determine the exact value of TTT's Crit amp.

(50 + [50 * 2.09]) = 154.5, 154.5/150 = 1.03. Therefore, with 50% crit, the 9% crit amp is worth 3% DPS.

To re-do the comparison with TED, we're going to have to use a more realistic number, 60% crit.

Normal Crit (40 + [60 * 2.00]) = 160
TTT Crit (40 + [60 * 2.09]) = 165.4
165.4/160 = 1.03375 or 3.375%.

If we just assume TED is reforged to crit and that there is 15000 haste/mastery rating from gear, the 9% amp accounts for 1350 of those stats. 580 TED has 2519 mastery, so it has an excess of 1169 rating.

If that 1169 rating was crit, it would provide 1.948% crit, so our true comparison to TTT must include that.

TED crit = (38.052 + (61.948 * 2.00]) = 161.948.
165.4/161.948 = 1.0213 or 2.13%.

This means that the difference between the TED Agi proc and the TTT Strength proc must be 2.13% of total DPS in favor of TED for it to be better. To quote the original post where I first did this work:

This means that the difference between TED’s Agi proc and Thok’s Str proc would have to be about 2.4% damage in favor of TED to break even. Estimation on Thok’s end puts the proc difference at about 1300 Agility worth of stats (there’s a lot of math there that is too boring to go into here), which is about a 2% damage difference, but TEB can be used during an Agi proc to greatly increase its worth relative to a Strength proc, so there’s a lot of extra wiggle room for TED there.

I can say that I'm even less confident in TTT than before because there's a bit lower benefit from TTT than the first time around. What I can say is this:

TL;DR Thok's Tail Tip is better than a lower item level Ticking Ebon Detonator. However, it is worse than an equal item level Ticking Ebon Detonator.

And that's going to be my party line from now on.

[Callimonk]

TL;DR Thok's Tail Tip is better than a lower item level Ticking Ebon Detonator. However, it is worse than an equal item level Ticking Ebon Detonator.

This has actually been what I have seen in play. I have a normal TeD + AoC + a Thok's, and I've basically dropped the normal TeD since gaining the Thok's. Thok's has shown in play to easily be a 20-40K DPS increase (perhaps more) over the normal TeD.

However, heroic TeD (in this case, vs. heroic Thok's or any other trinket) is great for our early/initial burst simply because of FoF. That extra burst of Agi at the start of the fight can be INSANE for your burst - it's great! Once I can get my hands on a normal TeD, that will more than likely be my trinket of choice for most (if not all) fights.

I'll also mention AoC.... I don't think it's really that bad of a trinket for us, but it does require a very tight and accurate style of play that most people cannot do or do not wish to do. I enjoy its style of play somewhat, but for farm content I think that other trinket alternatives are more fun/useful.

[Promdates]

Thok's is additive, so as I said in another thread, the damage break down is:
(Damage+(Crit_Damage*1.09))=Total_Crit

While the meta gems is (Damage+Crit_Damage)*1.03=Total_Crit

Read the wording on the two items. "Critical Damage" and "Critical Effect". Two different things. The Critical Effect is the TOTAL crit, while Crit Damage is just the bonus damage of the crit, not the total.

[Hinalover]

Thok's is additive, so as I said in another thread, the damage break down is:
(Damage+(Crit_Damage*1.09))=Total_Crit

While the meta gems is (Damage+Crit_Damage)*1.03=Total_Crit

Read the wording on the two items. "Critical Damage" and "Critical Effect". Two different things. The Critical Effect is the TOTAL crit, while Crit Damage is just the bonus damage of the crit, not the total.

Celestalon just confirmed that it is multiplicative with the meta.

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...27925323374592

He followed up with the correct formula:

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...29346240323585

Trinket only applies to crit bonus damage, not the whole crit damage.

(1 + 1 * 1.09) * 1.03

[Totaltotemic]

Celestalon just confirmed that it is multiplicative with the meta.

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...27925323374592

He followed up with the correct formula:

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...29346240323585

Trinket only applies to crit bonus damage, not the whole crit damage.

(1 + 1 * 1.09) * 1.03

This game makes no sense sometimes. I mean, if anything you'd think "critical damage" would be what applies to the entire crit and "critical effect" would be the crit multiplier. That's just really dumb.

[jwx]

Since everyone went off on a tangent about Thok's crit and never really gave you the right answer I guess I will. The reason you see H TED on the highest parses over H TTT is because you're looking at the highest parses. If you want consistency than TTT is going to provide similar results everytime. With TED however some pulls you may have a lot of procs or very few. Players going for the top ranks every week will use TED over TTT simply because the potential for a better parse is higher with lucky procs.