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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Flex is the nerf. Alternately Raid Finder's existence makes it unnecessary.
    Flex is only a nerf to the first 4 bosses on normal difficulty.

    If anything, heroic and normal was made harder because of the existence of Flex.
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  2. #42
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    Flex is only a nerf to the first 4 bosses on normal difficulty.

    If anything, heroic and normal was made harder because of the existence of Flex.
    Nonetheless if a guild is still struggling with SoO normal at this point they should be running it in Flex. Blizzard made that fairly clear when they released it. Flex wasn't created for pugging per se; it's just been used for that. It was created for guilds that were more casual or less skilled. Really, I don't see why they should nerf anything at all.
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Choptimus View Post
    175 in EU that have killed him.

    This is a problem with US guilds not being as good as the EU guilds, not the content. Sorry.
    Most of the people in US servers raid 25M while EU raids 10M

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    If anything, heroic and normal was made harder because of the existence of Flex.
    That is pure bullshit since completion rate statistics say that this tiers normal and heroic mode up until the 4 last heroic bosses has been the easiest in this entire expansion, if you would check earlier data it could very well be the easiest ever.
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Taik View Post
    I am currently sitting at 11/14hc with my guild, and although I don't expect these DS/ICC nerfs, I still fear they will be implemented. I'd hate to have killed Garrosh hc with a 10% nerf on it (the first time that is).
    I don't think they will (they have been doing targeted nerfs).

    They have stated that item upgrades are kind of self nerf the content.

    You do also know that you will be able to turn it off right?

  6. #46
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Obvious answer is obvious: The ICC nerf to 30% basically turned it into the LFR of WotLK

    We have now:
    -HM
    -normal
    -flex
    -LFR

    What would a blanket nerf accomplish? HM on the difficulty level of normal? Wut?
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  7. #47
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    Wont be surprised if they add some 10% nerf soon.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Obvious answer is obvious: The ICC nerf to 30% basically turned it into the LFR of WotLK

    We have now:
    -HM
    -normal
    -flex
    -LFR

    What would a blanket nerf accomplish? HM on the difficulty level of normal? Wut?
    That is what it accomplished in ICC and DS. They will do the nerf. They did it then saying that they wanted as many people as possible to experience the end raid of the expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrysia View Post
    Key distinction here. They were nerfed when we got a new tier. So if there are nerfs, they'll hit with 6.0.
    Another key distinction you are missing is they still felt the need to nerf the previous teir with a new tier of loot. That means higher ilevels, hp pools, stronger heals, and better dps if you go back into those old raids. The gear itself was more then enough of a nerf. However, they took it further. That is why this is my counter argument for those saying "upgrades are nerfs!" There were much better upgrades to be had because of a new tier of raiding, yet they still nerfed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Choptimus View Post
    So get better at the game?
    Some people want to get into normal but cant because they don't have the ilevel for it. Then you have Most flex runs wanting you to be ilevel 540+, which isn't helping. Getting better can only do you so good. I can match people 10ilevels above me who also have the legendary and I do not, yet I can't do normals solely because of ilevel. It's not always a case of "get better at the game". Ilevel talks, regardless of skill or lack thereof.
    Last edited by Zantos; 2014-02-05 at 08:41 AM.

  9. #49
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Targeted nerfs instead of blanket are much better. They could end up reducing the damage of Empowered Whirlwind eventually or something, but it's not like you wipe because of that honestly, it's the least dangerous thing in the encounter.

    I believe 90% of Garrosh heroic wipes currently are because of the adds from Emp. Whirlwind and/or Mind control in P3. Also meeting DPS check of only getting 1 Emp. Whirlwind in P3 is pretty helpful.

  10. #50
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    That is what it accomplished in ICC and DS. They will do the nerf. They did it then saying that they wanted as many people as possible to experience the end raid of the expansion.
    And I am glad to see they learned from their mistakes. They have stated that they were not happy with the degree of the DS nerfs. Every idiot and their child completing DS on Heroic when it was easier than pre-nerf Normal was not a good way to finish. The AotC and CE achievements were not there in the past. They will probably be removed when the nerf hits, which will probably be 6.0 prepatch.

    Non-raiding people can experience the end raid of the expansion in 6.0. Bad raiders can experience said raid on Heroic in 6.0.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Some people want to get into normal but cant because they don't have the ilevel for it. Then you have Most flex runs wanting you to be ilevel 540+, which isn't helping. Getting better can only do you so good. I can match people 10ilevels above me who also have the legendary and I do not, yet I can't do normals solely because of ilevel. It's not always a case of "get better at the game". Ilevel talks, regardless of skill or lack thereof.
    I don't know what you are talking about, but I was able to get in a normal mode and kill some bosses with ~535-540 item level and not even the legendary gem, let alone the cloak. Just because some players are bad and won't get taken to raids because they suck doesn't mean "ilvl is the end all be all of 'getting into groups.'" Nothing could be further from the truth, and those that believe that are deluded.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Nonetheless if a guild is still struggling with SoO normal at this point they should be running it in Flex. Blizzard made that fairly clear when they released it. Flex wasn't created for pugging per se; it's just been used for that. It was created for guilds that were more casual or less skilled. Really, I don't see why they should nerf anything at all.
    Although I do agree with SoO not needing any nerf, it's irrelevant to my comment. Flex shouldn't be seen as a nerf since it doesn't make the normal or heroic mode easier. Maybe I'm just getting stuck on the word "nerf" and you meant something else, but Flex does not make normal and heroic easier. At all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    That is pure bullshit since completion rate statistics say that this tiers normal and heroic mode up until the 4 last heroic bosses has been the easiest in this entire expansion, if you would check earlier data it could very well be the easiest ever.
    Why are we comparing the easiest bosses when we're discussing a nerf to the hardest bosses?

    It's clear from the data you're mentioning that the 4 last bosses are the toughest of this expansion so far. About 1000-1200 guilds (it was more than 1000, I remember that) had downed Lei shen when 5.4 hit.

    1 month to go until SoO has been out for as long as ToT was the hardest content, which means that over 700 guilds have to clear 14/14 until then to be on par with ToT. Mind you that ToT had 31k guilds with at least 1 boss killed normal when 5.4 hit and SoO is already up at 27k, so you can't blame it on guild participation either.

    And the wonderful statistics you're talking about means that progression in SoO is EASIER too, so you can't blame Lei Shen kills on guilds reaching him easier, because from what you said, we both know that it was much harder than reaching the last 4 in SoO.

    So, is it harder to get a full clear in SoO compared to what it was to get a full clear ToT?

    Our arguments would say so, yes. So why is my comment pure bullshit? You seem to speak in my favor without realising it.
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    And I am glad to see they learned from their mistakes. They have stated that they were not happy with the degree of the DS nerfs. Every idiot and their child completing DS on Heroic when it was easier than pre-nerf Normal was not a good way to finish. The AotC and CE achievements were not there in the past. They will probably be removed when the nerf hits, which will probably be 6.0 prepatch.

    Non-raiding people can experience the end raid of the expansion in 6.0. Bad raiders can experience said raid on Heroic in 6.0.
    Then they simply don't nerf SoO as much as they did DS




    I don't know what you are talking about, but I was able to get in a normal mode and kill some bosses with ~535-540 item level and not even the legendary gem, let alone the cloak. Just because some players are bad and won't get taken to raids because they suck doesn't mean "ilvl is the end all be all of 'getting into groups.'" Nothing could be further from the truth, and those that believe that are deluded.
    Im sorry, but you are just kidding yourself. Go to open raid. Look at how many people are requesting 540ilevel+ for flex 3/4, hell even 1-2 want 535+ most of then time. Just because you got lucky and managed to get into a normal, does not mean you are anywhere close to the majority. Ilevel > all when pugging. I have recruited pugs for guild raids, I have been the pug recruited for raids. If your ilevel isn't high, you wont be looked at unless they know you personally. That is how it is for the vast majority of the player base. Even you didn't get a full clear at 540ilevel. Even if you aren't skilled but you have high ilevel, you have a greater chance of being taken in a pug over someone better but with lower ilevel. That's just how it works. You can not disagree because you got lucky. Calling anyone deluded for knowing the truth is just stupid. Heck, you can hardly get into a ToT pug now a days without decent ilevel.
    Last edited by Zantos; 2014-02-05 at 08:53 AM.

  13. #53
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Im sorry, but you are just kidding yourself.
    I get into runs and have fun killing bosses in a good group while at the same time other people are bitching about item level and how they can't get into runs with "item level" as the fall-back reason...

    ... so I think it is you guys that are kidding yourselves.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    I get into runs and have fun killing bosses in a good group while at the same time other people are bitching about item level and how they can't get into runs with "item level" as the fall-back reason...

    ... so I think it is you guys that are kidding yourselves.
    You Got Lucky. The fall back reason? Please, don't make me laugh. Normals are not cross realm. On my realm you have to have at least 545+ ilevel to get into a normal raid. For flex, its not much better. Want a screen shot of open raid? I can give ya one. Im on it now and its just like I said, most people are requiring 540+ for flex runs. There is even a flex 1 requiring 540ilevel. You cannot and will not know how bad or good someone is until you get them into a raid. For the majority, you have to have a good ilevel or someone who feels a bit nice to get into a raid. I can get into the first 2 flex wings easily now. Once I gain another 6ilevels, I can start getting into the final ones easily. Even more so since I have cleared normal on my main.

    Edit: Oh look now a 550 appears for flex 4. Bet they would certainly take someone 14 ilevels below what they want! But hey, its just a fall back reason why they wont pug someone with a lower ilevel. All the threads complaining about it and then being told "their rules" are just kidders too.

  15. #55
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    There is even a flex 1 requiring 540ilevel.
    That's odd considering my 510 unenchanted toon gets into Flex 1 from OQueue pugs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Edit: Oh look now a 550 appears for flex 4. Bet they would certainly take someone 14 ilevels below what they want! But hey, its just a fall back reason why they wont pug someone with a lower ilevel. All the threads complaining about it and then being told "their rules" are just kidders too.
    Umm... ok... nobody has to take you. (Remember?) But at the same time, it's not so "impossible" to get into raids. And if you're bitching about getting into FLEX mode, I don't think you belong in Heroic pure and simple... so I don't understand why the nerfs would be relevant to you.

    ===

    "Obviously" reputation makes it easier for me to get into a run. Want to know the root of the issue here? When I go into runs, my attitude usually revolves around, "What can I bring to a group to help them clear?"

    When most people who complain/whine/bitch are talking, the attitude I usually get is "I'm entitled to be invited into group that can clear." Hint: complaining that you aren't being invited when you "deserve" to be doesn't help... maybe if you actually thought more about how you can demonstrate to a group that you are better than your item level, you'd actually see more invites to runs.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2014-02-05 at 09:06 AM.

  16. #56
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    That is what it accomplished in ICC and DS. They will do the nerf. They did it then saying that they wanted as many people as possible to experience the end raid of the expansion.

    Even by looking at three pages of this thread it is a lose/lose for them. Damned if you nerf, damned if you don't

    Well, SWP was nerfed to the ground with 3.0 - I suppose at the latest 6.0 will do that to SoO
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  17. #57
    Stood in the Fire
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    Zantos, you act as if you know it's going to happen. The sad truth is, no one really does. They didn't alter the FoS which they would've if they were planning on doing a zone-wide nerf, there's been no datamined nerf, and they said they won't be doing blanket zone nerfs to current content anymore(So we know if they're going to do a blanket nerf it would be toggled and for that it'd be datamined).

    They may nerf garrosh for 10m(Considering 10m guilds have about 3x the amount of wipes as 25m's), but not 25m.
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  18. #58
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Even by looking at three pages of this thread it is a lose/lose for them. Damned if you nerf, damned if you don't. Well, SWP was nerfed to the ground with 3.0 - I suppose at the latest 6.0 will do that to SoO
    I believe the big nerf will come with 6.0, and that's how it should be.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by cFortyfive View Post
    Well the devs stated they want gearing up and upgrading items to be the solution. I definitely think it's a bad one but well this was their decision.
    You are what killed MMOs

  20. #60
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymitylol View Post
    They may nerf garrosh for 10m(Considering 10m guilds have about 3x the amount of wipes as 25m's), but not 25m.
    Right, any nerf would most likely at this point being a targeted nerf to 10H Garrosh, possibly lowering the damage of Whirling Corruption, Annihilates, maybe spawning fewer adds for Empowered Whirls, maybe reducing amount of AoE swirls in Terrace. I could see one of those happening (and not by a big %). There certainly wouldn't be an overall nerf and definitely not an HP nerf.

    I do hate to say this about more "10 versus 25" but it's been my experience in the past that gear hits 10H bosses way, way harder than 25H bosses. Most 25H guilds are gear-capped or close to gear-capped at this point, whereas due to (way, way) slower gear acquisition for 10H, they still have time to go. Obviously Garrosh 10H has been particularly hard and some of that difficulty probably could have gone to Paragons 10H, but anyway, it won't take much to make it back to "10H faceroll" all over again, and I'm not sure even the 14/14 10H guilds want that.

    Not that it matters in 6.0 anyway.

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