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  1. #21
    Horde wins more BG's, players switch to Horde. I've seen it happen loads on multiple realms. A few of my friends went Horde or Human because they wanted to focus only on PvP, and Horde is the place to be for PvP according to all of them.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    *** Posting this here because I believe it affects more than just PVP, like Raid firsts, server firsts etc…

    First let me preface this with the little known fact that at the beginning of WoW very few players were playing Horde then one of the lead developers ( intentionally) let it slip in a game magazine interview that the Horde faction was made to be slightly stronger than Alliance and alluded to it being that way in the lore.

    *** Should be noted that back then the official Blizzard company guild was Horde and the developers were members of it, thus likely causing Horde favoritism right from the start.
    Right off the bat, irrelevant. Few game designers are still in the same position they were when the game came out. I don't know if you noticed in SoO, but Alliance kinda dominated the Horde and showed them who's boss, so..

    This got a lot more players playing on the Horde side but also caused an uproar on the Alliance side, particularly on PVP servers. Claimed it was the racials eventually they allegedly made both sides the same by nerfing them but that was on the surface.

    I learned of an addon called REFlex that tracked PVP BG win losses from this thread:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...highlight=Bots

    Also where I tracked wins/losses for a day, ended up with 3 wins 18 loses using it and where ando1510 said “To get an accurate number you must do like +500 BGs or maybe even more

    This is what 503 BGs later looks like ( you show me anyone on Alliance with better stats I will show you a losing battle rage quitter) :

    [IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/33tqxb6.jpg[IMG]

    Now on the surface 240 wins to 263 loses appears pretty even however when you take away the IOC & AV wins/losses it reveals an unbelievably lopsided picture, 71 wins to 257 loses!

    I would bet of those 257 loses less than 57 of them were even remotely close games.

    Even more stark is the AV and IoC stats (I play them non-stop when they are the Call to Arms BGs and to farm honor for motes, plus IoC seems to pop a lot doing random) 169 wins 6 loses!

    These stats confirm what I have experienced since vanilla WoW which is that there is something very wrong with WoW PVP.
    As if this game is even close to being the same game it was in 2004...

    The difference between AV & IoC and all other BGs is that Alliance does not have to face the Horde head on to win them but in every other BG they do and are completely dominated.

    Why?

    • It is not because of battlegroups they no longer exist and I would think with the merged servers the mix of players is more diversified than ever.

    • It is not because the Horde has better players or out gears Alliance, it is a purely random environment that kind of consistency to bring about such lopsided wins loses in everything but AV and IoC is not even theoretically plausible. Besides that, nothing changes at the start of seasons when both sides are basically gearless.

    • It is not because the Horde are more organized or play better as a team which is what both AV and IoC require to win and Alliance apparently excels at, see IoC & AV win/loss stats.

    The only logical conclusion is the Horde faction is inherently more powerful!
    Woah hold on there dude. Do you follow pvp at all? Tichondrius-Horde is the biggest server on US but it is ranked 20th in PVE progression. It's all Horde PVPers.

    Jumping to that conclusion without really having a situational awareness is kinda dumb. Even people who are posers and not high rated on Tich Horde are still more versed in current PVP than the majority of the population. They know some simple stuff like how to optimize for pvp, to fight on the flags, to kill or use their CC on the healers effectively.
    ***Now the AV and IoC stats could very well be communication problems in 40 man BGs; a dirty little secret in WoW seldom talked about but has been around since the beginning and could be the culprit. America is a country disliked around the world, on American servers it is assumed Alliance = majority American players. As such you get players from all over the world whom PVP on American servers as Horde for the single purpose of fighting American players.

    So you likely have a lot of players that do not speak English on the Horde side which is not much of a problem in smaller 10-15 BGs but likely causing a lot of coordination/communication problems in 40 mans.
    Ok, I wouldn't be surprised if you get banned for this, since it's like borderline racism and definitely a conspiracy theory. I don't know where that has ever come up, and the only basis in reality you have is that 2/3 of the big Brazilian servers are Alliance, but the Horde one is also the biggest.
    As I stated in the other thread, link posted above, I do remember someone calculating total damage for the top 5 Horde and top 5 Alliance players damage over a 20 BG period excluding AV & IoC assuming that the top 5 were players were most likely there the whole round. What they found was that the Horde players were averaging about 20% more damage and theorized that the Horde actually have 10% higher damage + 10% higher damage mitigation creating the 20% skew.

    It is also believed they are 10% faster, best observed in SofA demos from a high point like a gun tower, and I cannot tell you how many times I have been chasing horde on foot on my ranged toon and have them pull out of range without speed burst or how many times they have ran me down in the reverse.

    It is my belief they are 10% stronger across the board, have been since day one, and that Blizzard let it spiral out of control, now there is nothing they can do about it, in fact even have to mask it in RBGs by having factions switch sides.
    This is where you fucking spiral out of control and lose it entirely. You're like the superbowl 9/11 truther guy.

    If Horde even does more damage (not true, itd be easily proven by smarter people than us) then it's because of racials like +haste +attack power and Touch of the Grave, which Alliance has equivalences of with Shadowmeld, Every man for himself, Stoneform! (having a second cloak of shadows like ability for a rogue is amazing for dwarves, they can vanish twice without getting popped out by bleeds) You're just focusing too much on one thing to support your wild theories, it's called Confirmation Bias
    If true;

    And they admitted it but said they could not or would not do anything about it, then it would cause an uproar with the Alliance players, virtually all the Horde achievements would be ill gotten and should be stripped and cause mass faction changes to Horde killing the PVP part of the game.

    If they just removed it covertly and not said anything all BGs could very well be like IoC and AV are now causing a Horde uproar, mass faction changes to Alliance or abandonment of the PVP altogether killing the PVP part of the game.

    So no matter what we are stuck with it for the life of the game.

    Also if true, and Blizzard is well aware that a lot of foreign players play on American servers as Horde and why they are doing it and deliberately made and kept the Horde faction stronger knowing full well that it would allow that faction to dominate the Alliance side, would it not make Blizzard and anti-America company?
    Yeah you went full blown retard at the end there. Holy shit. Go be upset at the Coke superbowl ad.

  3. #23
    Epic! Warlord Booty's Avatar
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    Fact: Alliance get to Docks 2 seconds faster than Horde
    Fact: Alliance get to E/W towers 19 seconds faster than Horde gets N/S (due to being able to avoid mobs)

    At the end of the day, the numbers are fairly even.

    And arena number doesn't matter, cuz no one really cares about that.

  4. #24
    Instead of using an addon to track the wins/losses you experience, why did you not use the article posted recently on MMO-C main page?
    That addon has tracked how well BGs go for the games that you are in, not a general sample. While that study has a sampling bias, it is way less biased than your track sheet.

    The "10% move speed" is either they have a boot enchant that you don't, have a passive increase to move speed from a talent or stance (pally talent choice, unholy presence, etc.), or there is lag altering distances between you and other players. For lag, this is a combination of your connection to the servers, your opponents connection to the servers.

    as far as damage % is concerned, you do not reference a source for these stats and you changed terminology from "speculation" to "theorize" and "believe" which do not mean the same thing. I remember similar rumors have been tossed at both sides since classic and especially with the shaman/paladin differences back then.

    As for anti-American...um what? Are you saying that Blizzard is in a conspiracy with foreign players who are innately superior to American Alliance players (despite a generally worse connection to our servers) to get them to play Horde? Blizzard markets their games internationally and this means they need to not be American-biased.

  5. #25
    Epic! Warlord Booty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughtrey View Post
    I don't know if you noticed in SoO, but Alliance kinda dominated the Horde and showed them who's boss, so..
    In what sort of way? 9/10 25 mans were Horde and 10/10 in 10 mans... and in game lore, a combined force of horde and alliance and panda were needed to take down... the HORDE WARCHIEF, which tells me that the Alliance need a lot of help to take down the Horde Warchief, and in the end, the Horde leaders told the Alliance to GFTO when it was finished.

  6. #26
    Alliance has Dwarves, proving both that Blizzard doesn't favor the Horde and that Horde isn't inherently more powerful or any other similar adjectives.

  7. #27
    This OP has some serious tinfoil hat theories. Damn.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrApple View Post
    Faction-representation in arena by rating:

    2200+

    Horde 50.3 % (999)
    Alliance 49.7 % (986)

    2400+

    Alliance 58.8 % (802)
    Horde 41.2 % (562)

    2600+

    Alliance 73.5 % (86)
    Horde 26.5 % (31)

    Edit: It seems you were talking about lol-bgs.
    I still don't get why Blizzard doesn't change shadowmeld back to the old one: staying in combat with it. It's silly to give Night Elf Rogues and Druids a free Vanish. Nor do I get why Humans (and Undead for that matter) still have their free anti-CC racial.

  8. #28
    When IoC was current Horde used to win just as much (if not more) than Alliance.
    Currently, most decent PvP players on Horde side have IoC and AV blacklisted, they don't ever do them.
    It's has become more and more lopsided as Horde players learn the hard way to avoid IoC.
    What you are left with is a very large number bots or inexperienced players in IoC (and AV) on Horde side.

  9. #29
    Epic! Perkunas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    Maybe Horde just attracts better players, and the only reason you guys win AV and IoC so much is because no self-respecting PvPer wants to do a 40 man PvE Zergfest? Which means most Horde players Blacklist it.

    Also, I just have to laugh at the idiots still flaming Metzen. Were you guys harassed by Horde players at Blizzcon? Kosak's the one running things now.
    Didn't really read those arena stats did you, buddy?
    Don't blame the casuals for making Warcraft worse. It's the unskilled masses who refuse to improve themselves and Blizzard who has decided to bribe these folks with an endless shower of purples that should draw the ire of both casual and hardcore alike. It was never about "seeing the content" for these people it's always been about the gear and their sense of entitlement.

  10. #30
    What? lol

    I mean WHAT?!?!? Dude Horde does 10% more damage and moves 10% faster? Are you serious?
    I have conspiracy theory friends on FB that post really interesting articles but ultimately they are paranoid crap.
    This is the conspiracy theory poster child forum post for WoW if ever I read one.

    I MEAN OMG SERIOUSLY?! You do not actually believe what you wrote, surely.

  11. #31
    Herald of the Titans Mighty Blue Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    If horde was significantly more powerful in terms of racials, they would win AV too as it's a PvE BG (Which horde supposedly have MASSSSIVE advantages in, not the actual minor advantage)

    The reason is assymetrical maps - whether this is defensible or not is irrelevant with large statistics (OP's is not but whatever). It's EASIER to zerg-win as alliance, therefore alliance will win more upon the many games played this way.

    Once you look at symmetrical maps it shows horde superiority (Ignore SSM as it's likely still tainted by previously being horde favoured). Due to racials? Possibly. Due to PvE'ers (majority of the game) going horde and this having a knock on effect? maybe.

    But then we have SotA, where between the vehicles and bombs very little comes down to the actual racials themselves - leaving at face value quite strange arguments.

    Horde players are better at these BG's (more likely that better players switched horde for minmax racials etc. than "better players pick horde")
    Horde players premade more (this could be very likely, I have no idea - horde has queues so its logical that people would have more incentive to make sure they win)
    The BG algorithm forms better balanced horde teams than alliance teams
    Horde racials are significantly better, and cause wins in most BG's but don't seem to affect the large BG's

    I'd say 2 seems most likely, thinking about it. If horde has to queue 15 mins to get in while alliance doesnt, horde has much larger reason to make sure that 1 game they get per alliance 2 (effectively) is a win.

    But hey, it's all BS speculation to pass time
    Having played both sides since vanilla- Horde is more PvP oriented, and Alliance is generally better at PvE (including raiding, esp LFR, horde tend to not give a fuck).

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    Now on the surface 240 wins to 263 loses appears pretty even however when you take away the IOC & AV wins/losses it reveals an unbelievably lopsided picture, 71 wins to 257 loses!
    As others have said, you can't take out two BGs and cherrypick the others to make your point. That's complete fail.

    How about you factor in population in those BGs? That means alliance OVERWHELMINGLY win random BGs. (40 man IOC, 40 man AV, vs horde winning the low-pop BGs)

    That's pretty much all there is to say about it, if you think horde racials are too strong or whatever nonsense bias you're trying to confirm, you need to find better data to support it.

  13. #33
    Epic! Perkunas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Blue Bear View Post
    Having played both sides since vanilla- Horde is more PvP oriented, and Alliance is generally better at PvE (including raiding, esp LFR, horde tend to not give a fuck).
    That used to be the case, but since the Horde racials for PVE* have gotten so out of line the vast majority of the top raiding guilds are now Horde. Top arena players are Alliance because of the Human racial.
    Last edited by Perkunas; 2014-02-05 at 07:38 PM.
    Don't blame the casuals for making Warcraft worse. It's the unskilled masses who refuse to improve themselves and Blizzard who has decided to bribe these folks with an endless shower of purples that should draw the ire of both casual and hardcore alike. It was never about "seeing the content" for these people it's always been about the gear and their sense of entitlement.

  14. #34
    Or maybe this just shows that you personally suck in BGs where you individually have a greater impact and can't be carried by 39 other people? Or maybe the asthetics of the horde races just appeals more to people that are actually good at PvP? Thanks for the super conclusive insight though. lawl.

    And FYI. Blizzard did the same study on a much larger scale and got pretty much the same results as you for randoms. They then did it for RBGs and concluded that it wasnt the BGs that were imbalanced. I wonder what it could be then???

    **hint** its that the horde just has better players that dont queue for the larger BGs where they have less of an individual impact and can spend 45 mins in a single BG. Yay actual useful studies

  15. #35
    Random BGs aren't really "proof" of anything.

    Sorry.

  16. #36
    Moved to PvP subfrum because the OP is using on PvP information to draw a conclusion based on PvP performance. General performance is not discussed, nor is raid performance.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    Maybe Horde just attracts better players, and the only reason you guys win AV and IoC so much is because no self-respecting PvPer wants to do a 40 man PvE Zergfest? Which means most Horde players Blacklist it.

    Also, I just have to laugh at the idiots still flaming Metzen. Were you guys harassed by Horde players at Blizzcon? Kosak's the one running things now.
    this...\
    they are not bg's that actually test pvp skill. hence why every horde i know blacklist them both.

  18. #38
    Epic! Perkunas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djaye View Post
    this...\
    they are not bg's that actually test pvp skill. hence why every horde i know blacklist them both.
    The nonsense that you read in these threads. "Horde are just so much more skilled" "All the best PVP'ers are Horde" "We blacklist it because it takes no skill".
    Don't blame the casuals for making Warcraft worse. It's the unskilled masses who refuse to improve themselves and Blizzard who has decided to bribe these folks with an endless shower of purples that should draw the ire of both casual and hardcore alike. It was never about "seeing the content" for these people it's always been about the gear and their sense of entitlement.

  19. #39
    Ignoring the fact that your personal results are in no way scientific, all that random BG data shows is which faction is better at random BGs. As has been shown already, in Arena Alliance pulls ahead at the highest rating (no doubt due to the human racial).

    My theory is that horde players tend to be a little better at group content with random players. My personal experience, with multiple 90s on both factions, is that in all random group content, be it LFD, LFR, or random BGs, horde players tend to do at least a slightly better job cooperating with one another and acting as a group. These random groups are still pretty bad for Horde, but without fail, when I try to do the same content on Alliance, my experience is even worse.

    Why is this? I don't know. Perhaps Alliance appeals more to new players or younger, less mature players. Perhaps the fact that most of the best raiding guilds have gone Horde has caused most of the veteran wow players (people who actually know what they're doing) to follow. Perhaps it's just another anecdote with no basis in fact.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by sith View Post
    Random BGs aren't really "proof" of anything.

    Sorry.
    Random BGs are a fun way to kill time. They are undeniably imbalanced in the W/L ratio, it needs to be fixed.

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