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  1. #61
    Pandaren Monk
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    I believe the official Blizzard stats confirm Horde dominance in most BGs aside from IoC and AV. The IoC layout clearly favours alliance because of the position of the docks and the massing effect glaives have on the game. AV also favours alliance because of the bridge.

    The other battlegrounds are all very symmetrical though, so it makes little sense that one side should have an inherent advantage. And since I don't believe the OP in his assertion that Horde are simply buffed 10%, there must be some other explanation, and the only logical explanation is that Horde are better at pvp.

    Which seems strange, but I have a plausible explanation:

    It's about subscriber numbers: Alliance outnumber Horde, ie more people play Alliance than Horde. One immediate implication of this is that if you play Horde, you get to play more battlegrounds. Why do I say this? Well imagine there are 100 people queuing for Horde and 200 queuing for Alliance in one evening. Now lets say that 40 Arathi Basin battles happen that evening. That means that there will be 600 Arathi Basin spots available for each faction. Because Alliance spots are divided by 200 people, each Alliance member gets 3 games. Because Horde spots are divided by 100 people, each Horde member gets 6 games.

    This means Horde players get more experience and more opportunity to get better at the battleground. Not only that, but Horde players get more Honor points in an evening, meaning they land up with a gear advantage which then sets up a feedback loop - as they win more Honor, the gear gap grows, they win more, get even more honor.

  2. #62
    Bloodsail Admiral Nivena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The other battlegrounds are all very symmetrical though, so it makes little sense that one side should have an inherent advantage. And since I don't believe the OP in his assertion that Horde are simply buffed 10%, there must be some other explanation, and the only logical explanation is that Horde are better at pvp.
    Horde reaches Blacksmith in AB first, that's why we usually cap it & therefore win more in AB since controlling the middle is key to helping out other nodes fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    This means Horde players get more experience and more opportunity to get better at the battleground. Not only that, but Horde players get more Honor points in an evening, meaning they land up with a gear advantage which then sets up a feedback loop - as they win more Honor, the gear gap grows, they win more, get even more honor.
    Good point, I never thought about that.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I believe the official Blizzard stats confirm Horde dominance in most BGs aside from IoC and AV. The IoC layout clearly favours alliance because of the position of the docks and the massing effect glaives have on the game. AV also favours alliance because of the bridge.

    The other battlegrounds are all very symmetrical though, so it makes little sense that one side should have an inherent advantage. And since I don't believe the OP in his assertion that Horde are simply buffed 10%, there must be some other explanation, and the only logical explanation is that Horde are better at pvp.

    Which seems strange, but I have a plausible explanation:

    It's about subscriber numbers: Alliance outnumber Horde, ie more people play Alliance than Horde. One immediate implication of this is that if you play Horde, you get to play more battlegrounds. Why do I say this? Well imagine there are 100 people queuing for Horde and 200 queuing for Alliance in one evening. Now lets say that 40 Arathi Basin battles happen that evening. That means that there will be 600 Arathi Basin spots available for each faction. Because Alliance spots are divided by 200 people, each Alliance member gets 3 games. Because Horde spots are divided by 100 people, each Horde member gets 6 games.

    This means Horde players get more experience and more opportunity to get better at the battleground. Not only that, but Horde players get more Honor points in an evening, meaning they land up with a gear advantage which then sets up a feedback loop - as they win more Honor, the gear gap grows, they win more, get even more honor.
    uuuh no. the reason is because horde can play less games they are realy trying to win. 90% of the alliance games its a let them win so i can requeue again instantly.
    while horde needs to wait 10-30 min.

    and exp/gear gap has noting to do with it. it was with rbg and the conquest cap. but not with the hp.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nivena View Post
    Horde reaches Blacksmith in AB first, that's why we usually cap it & therefore win more in AB since controlling the middle is key to helping out other nodes fast.



    Good point, I never thought about that.
    like you get experiance from fighting bots and scrubs? or get bis gear from honor


    /edit and its the other way around. alliance got insta queue. and horde need to wait 10-30 min depend on time.

  4. #64
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by loki504 View Post
    uuuh no. the reason is because horde can play less games they are realy trying to win. 90% of the alliance games its a let them win so
    Care to offer any scientific explanation for this? When you are talking populations of millions, there should be no inherent differences between the players. It is possible that there are learned differences, ie feedback loops over time have changed things, but where did it start?

    Quote Originally Posted by loki504 View Post
    i can requeue again instantly. while horde needs to wait 10-30 min.
    It doesn't make sense that on average, with 55% of the population, alliance should have shorter queues. They are 20% more populous than horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by loki504 View Post
    and exp/gear gap has noting to do with it. it was with rbg and the conquest cap. but not with the hp.
    There is no logic in this statement. Very often people play BGs to earn HP. They do so because they do not have full HP gear. Ergo, the faction with more HP overall will have better gear. It's also pretty obvious when you look at players in normal BGs that many are still building up the HP gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by loki504 View Post
    like you get experiance from fighting bots and scrubs?
    Again, no logic behind this statement. Logic dictates that the more BGs you participate in, the more experience you will get. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by loki504 View Post
    or get bis gear from honor
    It's not about BIS gear. It's about average ilevel in a group. Unless both teams are fully decked out in CP gear in every slot, honor gear is still making a difference. Also you do some conquest from normal BGs. The bottom line is that the faction with a higher winning record is going to have, on average, a higher ilevel of gear.


    Quote Originally Posted by loki504 View Post
    /edit and its the other way around. alliance got insta queue. and horde need to wait 10-30 min depend on time.
    Is this a real statistic, or one you pulled out of thin air? Look, either way it doesn't make a difference. There are less horde than alliance. This is true in both EU and the US. The ratio is approximately 55%:45% which means there are 20% more alliance than horde. That means on average horde players are getting in 20% more BGs each. Even if horde queues are longer, alliance players are still playing less, it just means they queue less often. The logic behind my theory still stands.

  5. #65
    i should've stopped reading after your first sentence. but then i continued, and saw this:
    Should be noted that back then the official Blizzard company guild was Horde and the developers were members of it, thus likely causing Horde favoritism right from the start.
    i stopped there. a tip: if you want to have an interesting discussion, don't fall victim to conspiracy theories. they are, most of the time, nothing but BS. good luck on your next thread, i look forward to it and hope it will have more substance. the idea with the BG win/loss rations is good, but step away from the voodoo.

  6. #66
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    The problem is that anybody looking to get that extra edge they need to be competitive is going to go horde for the vastly superior races.

    Whereas people who stay Alliance either: 1) Can't afford to faction change. 2) Don't want to faction change. or 3) Don't take the game serious enough.

    But I'd say that the 'larger than you may realize' amount of people who go Horde, are what gives horde the advantage it needs in every BG to win.
    I notice a HUGE difference between games I try hard to do well in, and games I don't care and kind of zone out in. ONE person CAN and DOES make a noticeable difference in BGs. So even if each horde team only has ONE person who is horde for the extra edge through racials, then it's going to give the TEAM the edge it needs to win.

    If racials are removed / balanced (preferably the latter, but it's unlikely) then I think BG wins will go back to around 50/50 for non-40m BGs.
    I certainly think more skilled PVP players will come back to Alliance, but I also think it may be too late to completely balance the two factions out.

    Too many people have a false 'hipster' mentality by being horde, as though they're giving society some huge metaphorical middle finger by being the outcasts.
    I've never liked hipsters, or people who pretend to be them.

  7. #67
    Anyone that doesn't think that there are inherent biases in the BGs (IoC/AV alliance, rest horde) at this point is essentially confirming they wear tin foil hats. There is no statistic anywhere that could be construed any other way. All the talk of "certain factions try less hard because they know they aren't going to win" or "x faction has longer queues so they try harder" is true, but stems from that initial immutable fact; the maps are unbalanced, and lead to those follow-on effects.


    It is unbelievable that there hasn't even been attempts made at balancing the maps by this point, but even at the least, it's unfathomable that there aren't mirrored versions of each map with base positions reversed. Every map should have a 50-50 split which each faction starting in each location.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    Anyone that doesn't think that there are inherent biases in the BGs (IoC/AV alliance, rest horde) at this point is essentially confirming they wear tin foil hats. There is no statistic anywhere that could be construed any other way. All the talk of "certain factions try less hard because they know they aren't going to win" or "x faction has longer queues so they try harder" is true, but stems from that initial immutable fact; the maps are unbalanced, and lead to those follow-on effects.


    It is unbelievable that there hasn't even been attempts made at balancing the maps by this point, but even at the least, it's unfathomable that there aren't mirrored versions of each map with base positions reversed. Every map should have a 50-50 split which each faction starting in each location.
    What advantage(s) would there be in WSG? EotS? SotA?

    I'd agree that maps like AV, IoC, AB and some of the new ones I can't remember could be argued to be unbalanced, but the maps that more or less are symmetrical?

  9. #69
    Atually, alliance have better racials for PvP. Horde ,however, got better racials for PvE.
    And alliance characters are more successfull in high ratings due to their racials and many PvPers that will push rating go alliance.

    I think the reason horde wins BGs more often than alliance is the fact that more Horde players are involved in PvP, therefor leading to long queue times for them. So it is more important for them to win that BG for those honor points.

    Also, it is possible the Hordes more monster/alien looking characters are attracting more players with a more competetive personality. Leading to a higher interest in PvP and people trying harder to beat their foes in BGs.

    The theory about horde was made to be stronger are just stupid. They most likely deal more damage, since they got racials like Berserking, Blood Fury, Command, Beast Slaying, Touch of the Grave. While alliance have more defensive racials, or utility racials like Every Man for Himself, Gift of the Naaru, Stoneform, Shadowmeld, Escape Artist.

  10. #70
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bllets View Post
    What advantage(s) would there be in WSG? EotS? SotA?

    I'd agree that maps like AV, IoC, AB and some of the new ones I can't remember could be argued to be unbalanced, but the maps that more or less are symmetrical?
    Arathi Basin: Horde arrive at Blacksmith a few seconds faster and are usually able to secure a cap before Alliance can arrive.
    Silvershard Mines: Horde have a faster route to Lava Cart, which is the fastest capping cart and can be held the entire BG to secure a win, while ignoring the other 2 carts.
    Twin Peaks: Every horde exit/entrance is on level ground. Alliance is raised up, allowing horde to clear half the distance of the BG with our flag, through slow fall mechanics. I've seen a Druid kite off the top of Alliance base, land about 60% across the BG in the water, and skim across the bottom of the river in Seal form, capping the flag in like 30 seconds flat.
    Gilneas: While Alliance have to run across the broken bridge, and around the big house to get to the Waterworks flag. Horde can run straight there which means that the BG is only balanced unless Horde has water walking. If Horde has water walking, then they will arrive on the flag first.

  11. #71
    It was, and it will always be like this. Deal with it. Horde has always won more BG's it
    s in WoW's deepest Matrix.

  12. #72
    Arathi Basin: Horde arrive at Blacksmith a few seconds faster and are usually able to secure a cap before Alliance can arrive.
    Gilneas: While Alliance have to run across the broken bridge, and around the big house to get to the Waterworks flag. Horde can run straight there which means that the BG is only balanced unless Horde has water walking. If Horde has water walking, then they will arrive on the flag first.
    However if alliance has water walking in AB, then they will reach BS before or at the same time.

    And in Gilneas if Horde does not have water walking, alliance always seem to get there first.

  13. #73
    The Patient biolink22's Avatar
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    Ok first off as far as raids go yes horde has much more powerful PvE racials, however alliance or more accurately humans have the strongest pvp racial in the game as evidenced by the fact that in arena teams OVER 2200 (don't try to tell me pugged battlegrounds matter) humans comprise roughly 33% of ALL the characters.

    http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-2-0.html

    edit1: added link to data.
    Last edited by biolink22; 2014-02-06 at 10:05 AM.


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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Buxton McGraff View Post
    Arathi Basin: Horde arrive at Blacksmith a few seconds faster and are usually able to secure a cap before Alliance can arrive.
    Silvershard Mines: Horde have a faster route to Lava Cart, which is the fastest capping cart and can be held the entire BG to secure a win, while ignoring the other 2 carts.
    Twin Peaks: Every horde exit/entrance is on level ground. Alliance is raised up, allowing horde to clear half the distance of the BG with our flag, through slow fall mechanics. I've seen a Druid kite off the top of Alliance base, land about 60% across the BG in the water, and skim across the bottom of the river in Seal form, capping the flag in like 30 seconds flat.
    Gilneas: While Alliance have to run across the broken bridge, and around the big house to get to the Waterworks flag. Horde can run straight there which means that the BG is only balanced unless Horde has water walking. If Horde has water walking, then they will arrive on the flag first.
    did you see the arena stats? Huh? Did ya? Did ya? Nope? Now we are both trolling aren't we?

  15. #75
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buxton McGraff View Post
    The problem is that anybody looking to get that extra edge they need to be competitive is going to go horde for the vastly superior races.

    Whereas people who stay Alliance either: 1) Can't afford to faction change. 2) Don't want to faction change. or 3) Don't take the game serious enough.

    But I'd say that the 'larger than you may realize' amount of people who go Horde, are what gives horde the advantage it needs in every BG to win.
    I notice a HUGE difference between games I try hard to do well in, and games I don't care and kind of zone out in. ONE person CAN and DOES make a noticeable difference in BGs. So even if each horde team only has ONE person who is horde for the extra edge through racials, then it's going to give the TEAM the edge it needs to win.

    If racials are removed / balanced (preferably the latter, but it's unlikely) then I think BG wins will go back to around 50/50 for non-40m BGs.
    I certainly think more skilled PVP players will come back to Alliance, but I also think it may be too late to completely balance the two factions out.

    Too many people have a false 'hipster' mentality by being horde, as though they're giving society some huge metaphorical middle finger by being the outcasts.
    I've never liked hipsters, or people who pretend to be them.
    I highly doubt that racials have all that much to do with BG results, seeing as BGs tend to be fairly one sided after they start, with the lesser-geared team getting crushed pretty thoroughly. If it comes down to Alliance versus horde with both having similar levels of gear, then I'd wager it DOES approach a 50/50 matchup, without racials being the "end all deciding factor."
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
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    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  16. #76
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    Ok first off as far as raids go yes horde has much more powerful PvE racials, however alliance or more accurately humans have the strongest pvp racial in the game as evidenced by the fact that in arena teams OVER 2200 (don't try to tell me pugged battlegrounds matter) humans comprise roughly 33% of ALL the characters.
    This is 100% false. Look at the top 100 3s players. All horde from tichondrius. The Human racial became next to shit compared to horde racials, when they nerfed PVP power. (the extra PVP power trinket no longer outweighed the horde racials)

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/leaderboards/3v3

    Check it out. The top 3s players, not a single Alliance on the first page (top 50 players) and only 5 on the second page.
    So 5% of the top 100 3v3 players in the world are Alliance. 95% of them are Horde, and not because horde are better.
    It's because anybody looking to become one of the top 100 PVPers in the world, is going to go horde to get the slight edge they need to be better. (racials)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eon Drache View Post
    did you see the arena stats? Huh? Did ya? Did ya? Nope? Now we are both trolling aren't we?
    Productive response.

    Not only did you manage to come off looking like an arrogant douche, but you failed to prove a point as well.

    I wasn't trolling at all. These are legitimate issues in the aforementioned BGs, that have yet to be addressed over the years.

    I.E. By the time Alliance arrive at BS and it's already capped, it's going to be next to impossible to secure a steal. Especially once the base is capped and Horde begin to res there.

  17. #77
    The Patient biolink22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buxton McGraff View Post
    This is 100% false. Look at the top 100 3s players. All horde from tichondrius. The Human racial became next to shit compared to horde racials, when they nerfed PVP power. (the extra PVP power trinket no longer outweighed the horde racials)

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/leaderboards/3v3

    Check it out. The top 3s players, not a single Alliance on the first page (top 50 players) and only 5 on the second page.
    So 5% of the top 100 3v3 players in the world are Alliance. 95% of them are Horde, and not because horde are better.
    It's because anybody looking to become one of the top 100 PVPers in the world, is going to go horde to get the slight edge they need to be better. (racials)

    - - - Updated - - -



    Productive response.

    Not only did you manage to come off looking like an arrogant douche, but you failed to prove a point as well.

    I wasn't trolling at all. These are legitimate issues in the aforementioned BGs, that have yet to be addressed over the years.

    I.E. By the time Alliance arrive at BS and it's already capped, it's going to be next to impossible to secure a steal. Especially once the base is capped and Horde begin to res there.
    Maybe you should check my link and try to refute the hard evidence instead of just spouting generalities. I specifically said characters over 2200 which is the ONLY pvp that matters. Also you are only looking at US rankings if you look at EU and US together you get an entirely different story.
    http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-3-0-0.html
    Last edited by biolink22; 2014-02-06 at 10:27 AM.


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  18. #78
    On the US servers horde is the pvp faction on EU alliance. Thus on us most hight rated players are horde, on eu they are alliance. (and no, horde racials arent really better, wotf is best for healers (not that that matters much as they cant play /druid/shaman) while human is best for dps, and shadowmeld is king for rogues/druids).
    Last edited by Crruor; 2014-02-06 at 11:14 AM.

  19. #79
    I think Asymmetrical Maps like Alterac Valley should have randomized spawn points so you have a 50% chance to spawn on each site regardless of faction.
    Capitalism, Ho!

  20. #80
    Ioc should not favor alliance at all, the travel distance to docks is virtually the same, even if horde really comes there 2seconds later than alliance it has no effect at all.

    I want to hear the real imbalance in IoC

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