They should make the teams have random starting sides in the battlegrounds, problem solved.
They should make the teams have random starting sides in the battlegrounds, problem solved.
Some men just want to watch the world burn...
"It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad."
Those advantages are all minor. They would only come into play in a closely fought match.Horde actually do have some random BG advantages that aren't very obvious.
Most of my alliance-side matches are not closely fought.
Anecdote: I queued 6 matches as Alliance on Sunday afternoon. There was a Horde 5 man guild group in each of the first 5. All 5 were lopsided losses complete with GY camping. In the 6th match there was no apparent premade on either side, and Alliance eeked out a close victory.
I'm not against premades. It's an MMO, you should be able to play with your "friends". But its not fair or healthy to match these premades up against throw together groups.
Perhaps it is time for same faction BGs. At the same time, adjust the match-maker so premade groups only play pre-made groups. If you queue as 5, you are in the queue until another group of 5 can be found. Its not practical currently, but might work with same faction BGs.
I agree that when a team thinks they can win they actually try to do so though...
On the other hand as soon as the horde scores the 1st flag in WSG all positivity vanishes and everyone just stops trying to play properly and fights in midfield. When both teams are holding the oppositions flag at 1-0 down I can tell my team mates that it's 1 defender with the flag holder and be begging for 1-2 people to come help me for over 5 mins without a single person arriving and then of course the horde get their flag back and score again.
I fully endorse same-faction battleground queues (ie. Horde vs. Horde), AND randomized spawn locations (50% chance for Horde to start on the Alliance side of any given battleground). Either - or preferably both - of those changes would go a huge way to removing the discrepancy in win/loss ratios.
As someone who plays both sides - for all the virtual ethnocentricism in WoW - the playerbases in random battlegrounds are essentially identical
Another point I didn't mention about holding BS in AB - is that the GY spawns you directly above LM - meaning that even if the Horde had LM and lost it, their respawns appear on the far side of the map from the Alliance vanguard (at LM) - in perfect position for a surprise attack (without warning) from above on Gold Mine.
It doesn't have to be a closely fought match at all to make those little advantages count - but even still, should we say it's fair that "In an even and closely fought match between the Alliance:Horde, the Horde should win by 'default'?" That's a pretty poor argument. If the reverse were true - if two balanced teams would make the match more fair, but an imbalance were an easy win, that would be a more equitable scenario - than if as you suggest, the imbalance is more prevalent when skill/gear/teamwork is mirrored between the factions.
Those small differences on Twin Peaks means that if you have 2-3 good players on both side, and 7-8 scrubs - that 2-3 good player kill team on the Horde side have a markedly better chance of reaching and killing the Alliance FC, than does the equally skilled Alliance kill team of reaching the Horde FC. Because the advantages are physical, tactical advantages in map design - albeit nowhere near as significant an advantage as something silly like the AV Alliance 'Bridge of Death' - the advantage they provide is almost irrelevant to the gear/skill/teamwork levels of the various factions.
Gilneas is another good example - even if both teams consisted entirely of bots and noobs-who-are-worse-than-bots - a single good call can get a rotate strong enough to prevent a node-flip. For the horde at Mines or a horde-controlled WW, that call has a massive lead-time for the Horde-Mine defenders or the Horde-WW defenders - but the same isn't true at all for Alliance-LH or Alliance-WW defenders: who are already in combat by the time they see an incoming wave. That might appear as incompetence - as though the horde are doing a better job at communicating enemy movement and responding - but it's actually the result of slight-but-tangible advantages in map design that favour the Horde.
Now, the way the Alliance can address this problem in Gilneas is to send a scout to the top of the Hill - someone who can see the entry to the horde-side Rainbow Pass - and who can spot incoming Horde over the Hill before they summit. However, consider what that means - the Horde don't require a dedicated scout to spot incoming waves from the Alliance nodes - but the Alliance do. That means that take one of your most teamworky Alliance players in every Gilneas map - and subtract them from Node Defense (as they have to spend all their time seemingly AFK on the Hill).
That means that if the Horde send say... 5 to WW and 5 to LH (or any distribution you choose), the Alliance can only respond with 5:4 or 4:5. In a 10 player battleground, the Alliance are perpetually down one player (who may not be geared, but is informed on the strategy and eager to win, which counts for a lot - in a random BG that's usually one of your MVPs, geared or not). So the Alliance in Gilneas need to either play 9 vs. 10, or be constantly barraged by surprise attacks on either node.
It doesn't matter if you have 10 Rank 1's, or 10 bots in full greens - that advantage is a physical reality of the map design. It certainly doesn't mean the Alliance "Always" loses - I have very solid positive win ratios in all three of those random battlegrounds on my Alliance spriest, dk, and lock - good players and teamwork count for way more than a stuipd fence in the road, but averaged over the entirety of WoW - there is a real tactical advantage in map design, small but non-trivial - that slightly favours the horde in Random Battlegrounds.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see the BS rez vector being a tide turner when Alliance is being farmed in Trollbane Hall. Or any of the points you made making any difference when the ratio of HKs is 25:1.
You haven't proven anything with those stats. Except that Alliance dominates a couple BGs. Not sure how that confirms horde as more powerful...
A more palatable explanation is the Faction was and still is inherently more powerful and that created skewed win ratios, higher damage ratios, higher KB ratios etc.. which naturally attracts more PVP orientated players. Today they probably do indeed have more PVP players, not necessarily better, but just a 10% edge can turn ordinary to seemingly extraordinary.
Horde as a faction especially pre blood elves attracted more of the 15-25 crowd with a lot of free time, reflexes and willingness to learn their class
I really doubt an advantage in speed etc would have gone unnoticed for almost 10 years
horde just has better players on average
My experience as Horde in IoC:
Join BG and start begging people to come to docks, explaining that if Alliance gets it it's an almost guaranteed loss.
Gates open. ~10-15 people decide to come with me to docks. ~5 go to air base. 20+ go to middle, take the flag, then proceed to fight on the road and die on the way to the Alliance gate.
At docks, we encounter 25-30 alliances and one of them is probably already taking the flag. In the following battle, we die or retreat.
Alliance gets docks. Their bots/afk'ers stay at flag, their numbers being just enough to prevent ninjaing of the flag, while the main force gets into the Horde base.
This happens over and over and over (unless the opposing team is german or russian and employ some weird hk farming tactic). From the moment the gates open, judging from how players spread on the map, horde players know if they either 1) have a chance (chance!) at wining; or 2) have a guaranteed loss.
This is a major contributor to the team's morale if you ask me.
For example, about the only time you notice players with faster mount speeds in a BG is when the gates open and they run out ahead of everyone else, after the match has started and those same players are on their own riding across a BG you don't even notice. Same can be said of any stat buffed 10%, it is enough to give an advantage but not enough to stick out.
They only way to tell aside from the win/loss is to sort of stand back and really watch what's going on; for speed, watch a battle at a flag in AB or BfG, then you start to notice, compare Horde Rogue movements with Alliance Rogues, Horde mages bounce strafing vs Alliance etc... Where I really noticed was in SSM RBGs, close quarters and everyone liked geared, Horde were flat out quicker.
For DPS/Damage it is even harder to tell; you can watch the scoreboard, look at damage done, KBs etc... particularly between like classes, especially at this point in the season when gear level separation for the majority should be at a minimum thus should be relatively close but more often that not a wide degree of seperation.
Last edited by Cobaltius; 2014-02-18 at 11:44 AM.
Every IoC Alliance zergs docks because its a guaranteed cap being so close to their base. Horde literally cannot get there in time to stop it being taken.
At this point the strategy for Horde is attack with airship + demos while simuntaneously destroying the glaives with stealthers.
Fail at any part of this and they will lose, why? Because glaives are so much faster at battering down the gate the horde needs both the other two bases to down the alliance gate in time. Yes that is even with a team killing glaives!! (because they will always get shots off before dying)
Until the docks early capping can be contested by red Horde, or glaive damage is drastically nerfed Horde will always have an uphill struggle.
It's all a mindset.
I used to PvP a lot back before BGs even existed, when it was Southshore vs TM. But at some point people figured out that a 2 faction system would never be balanced, and PvPers all drifted towards the Horde (at least on US servers). I haven't PvPed in a long time, sticking to PvE, and I decided to check things out again recently. Here's a prime example of what I saw simply Qing for random BGs. Yesterday: 8 losses 0 wins. Today: 4 losses 0 wins.
In fact, looking at my achievement pane right now on this character, I have 56 BGs played and 14 wins. Now I know these are not averages, I know they are just my particular numbers, but my numbers are what I base my decisions upon, just like anybody else. So what is next to me in PvP? I'm quitting again for quite a few years, if not forever. Who is truly surprised about that? Who in their right mind would play a game where you lose the vast majority of matches? Doesn't fly in Poker, in FPS games, shouldn't fly in MMOs either.
I'm just one among many, but this is the reason why Horde Q times are 10-15mins. This is why Alliance players take forever to get geared up as compared with Horde. This is the reason why Alliance players give up on PvP and why the situation doesn't, and will never change, unless Blizzard does something drastic to actually change things.
It is the start of a new season, by this time everyone should be similarly geared, being a little better, squeezing out a few more DPS than opponent should not translate into complete dominations, it simply can not account for 2-3x the damage output or 10+ to 1 KB ratios.
I have been part of some the most lopsided BGs & RBG's I have ever played in the last two days; Played ToK yesterday we could not even get to inner part to get an orb much less get to center most of the entire round, then went cartless in SM in a rated BG, they had two of three before we even all made it out of the cave, overran north and farmed us the rest of the round, could not kill a single one of them, 0 HK's.
I simply do not buy that the Horde having a few more "better" players in a completely random environment equates to the utter domination being played out on US servers at least..
Last edited by Cobaltius; 2014-02-28 at 01:31 AM.
Alliance give up and cba on my battle group, rarely people are well geared, no one wants to do the objectives (most people have no idea what they are) in all BGs EXCEPT AV and IOC. When AV and IOC come knocking around alliance intelligence multiplies by a factor of 1000, they suddenly become a highly coordinated BG owning machine that is unstoppable.