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  1. #141
    The Lightbringer Naxere's Avatar
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    They should make the teams have random starting sides in the battlegrounds, problem solved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    Guided placement into a subject you excel at isn't denying desires and dreams.

  2. #142
    Horde actually do have some random BG advantages that aren't very obvious.
    Those advantages are all minor. They would only come into play in a closely fought match.

    Most of my alliance-side matches are not closely fought.

    Anecdote: I queued 6 matches as Alliance on Sunday afternoon. There was a Horde 5 man guild group in each of the first 5. All 5 were lopsided losses complete with GY camping. In the 6th match there was no apparent premade on either side, and Alliance eeked out a close victory.

    I'm not against premades. It's an MMO, you should be able to play with your "friends". But its not fair or healthy to match these premades up against throw together groups.

    Perhaps it is time for same faction BGs. At the same time, adjust the match-maker so premade groups only play pre-made groups. If you queue as 5, you are in the queue until another group of 5 can be found. Its not practical currently, but might work with same faction BGs.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by KonkeroaR View Post
    It's more of a morale issue in AV and IoC. Horde just assume they're going to lose those 2 BGs, and pull stupid shit (like Vann with 4 towers still up). On the opposite side of the spectrum, if Horde joins AB or WSG, they inherently work together (most of the time) and feel as if they have a good shot at a win, so they'll give it their all.

    Yes there may be a benefit to one faction or another in terms of racials or what have you, but it's mostly psychological.
    But how does it get to 1 team feeling like they are / aren't going to win a particular BG in the 1st place ? We have a what came 1st, the chicken or the egg situation.

    I agree that when a team thinks they can win they actually try to do so though...

    On the other hand as soon as the horde scores the 1st flag in WSG all positivity vanishes and everyone just stops trying to play properly and fights in midfield. When both teams are holding the oppositions flag at 1-0 down I can tell my team mates that it's 1 defender with the flag holder and be begging for 1-2 people to come help me for over 5 mins without a single person arriving and then of course the horde get their flag back and score again.

  4. #144
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    I fully endorse same-faction battleground queues (ie. Horde vs. Horde), AND randomized spawn locations (50% chance for Horde to start on the Alliance side of any given battleground). Either - or preferably both - of those changes would go a huge way to removing the discrepancy in win/loss ratios.

    As someone who plays both sides - for all the virtual ethnocentricism in WoW - the playerbases in random battlegrounds are essentially identical

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinsoul View Post
    Those advantages are all minor. They would only come into play in a closely fought match.
    Not true. In a random Arathi Basin - the first team to capture and hold blacksmith is usually the winning team - it's a very strong advantage - and more importantly, the far faster reinforcement from the horde-side BS bridge to BS/Farm/LM - means that not only do the horde have BS, they can reinforce in less time than the Alliance can hit LM/Farm/BS. It's not a game-deciding factor, I said that half a dozen times - but it determines the lead, and it gives the horde an advantage once in the lead in their ability to hold that lead.

    Another point I didn't mention about holding BS in AB - is that the GY spawns you directly above LM - meaning that even if the Horde had LM and lost it, their respawns appear on the far side of the map from the Alliance vanguard (at LM) - in perfect position for a surprise attack (without warning) from above on Gold Mine.

    It doesn't have to be a closely fought match at all to make those little advantages count - but even still, should we say it's fair that "In an even and closely fought match between the Alliance:Horde, the Horde should win by 'default'?" That's a pretty poor argument. If the reverse were true - if two balanced teams would make the match more fair, but an imbalance were an easy win, that would be a more equitable scenario - than if as you suggest, the imbalance is more prevalent when skill/gear/teamwork is mirrored between the factions.


    Those small differences on Twin Peaks means that if you have 2-3 good players on both side, and 7-8 scrubs - that 2-3 good player kill team on the Horde side have a markedly better chance of reaching and killing the Alliance FC, than does the equally skilled Alliance kill team of reaching the Horde FC. Because the advantages are physical, tactical advantages in map design - albeit nowhere near as significant an advantage as something silly like the AV Alliance 'Bridge of Death' - the advantage they provide is almost irrelevant to the gear/skill/teamwork levels of the various factions.

    Gilneas is another good example - even if both teams consisted entirely of bots and noobs-who-are-worse-than-bots - a single good call can get a rotate strong enough to prevent a node-flip. For the horde at Mines or a horde-controlled WW, that call has a massive lead-time for the Horde-Mine defenders or the Horde-WW defenders - but the same isn't true at all for Alliance-LH or Alliance-WW defenders: who are already in combat by the time they see an incoming wave. That might appear as incompetence - as though the horde are doing a better job at communicating enemy movement and responding - but it's actually the result of slight-but-tangible advantages in map design that favour the Horde.

    Now, the way the Alliance can address this problem in Gilneas is to send a scout to the top of the Hill - someone who can see the entry to the horde-side Rainbow Pass - and who can spot incoming Horde over the Hill before they summit. However, consider what that means - the Horde don't require a dedicated scout to spot incoming waves from the Alliance nodes - but the Alliance do. That means that take one of your most teamworky Alliance players in every Gilneas map - and subtract them from Node Defense (as they have to spend all their time seemingly AFK on the Hill).

    That means that if the Horde send say... 5 to WW and 5 to LH (or any distribution you choose), the Alliance can only respond with 5:4 or 4:5. In a 10 player battleground, the Alliance are perpetually down one player (who may not be geared, but is informed on the strategy and eager to win, which counts for a lot - in a random BG that's usually one of your MVPs, geared or not). So the Alliance in Gilneas need to either play 9 vs. 10, or be constantly barraged by surprise attacks on either node.

    It doesn't matter if you have 10 Rank 1's, or 10 bots in full greens - that advantage is a physical reality of the map design. It certainly doesn't mean the Alliance "Always" loses - I have very solid positive win ratios in all three of those random battlegrounds on my Alliance spriest, dk, and lock - good players and teamwork count for way more than a stuipd fence in the road, but averaged over the entirety of WoW - there is a real tactical advantage in map design, small but non-trivial - that slightly favours the horde in Random Battlegrounds.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2014-02-12 at 05:16 PM.
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  5. #145
    Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see the BS rez vector being a tide turner when Alliance is being farmed in Trollbane Hall. Or any of the points you made making any difference when the ratio of HKs is 25:1.

  6. #146
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinsoul View Post
    Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see the BS rez vector being a tide turner when Alliance is being farmed in Trollbane Hall. Or any of the points you made making any difference when the ratio of HKs is 25:1.
    Do you by chance remember what the Strawman wanted in the Wizard of Oz?
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  7. #147
    You haven't proven anything with those stats. Except that Alliance dominates a couple BGs. Not sure how that confirms horde as more powerful...

  8. #148
    Herald of the Titans Matt0193's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Do you by chance remember what the Strawman wanted in the Wizard of Oz?
    Oh... oh... A brain?
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  9. #149
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt0193 View Post
    Oh... oh... A brain?
    Thanks! ^^
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  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    *** Posting this here because I believe it affects more than just PVP, like Raid firsts, server firsts etc…

    First let me preface this with the little known fact that at the beginning of WoW very few players were playing Horde then one of the lead developers ( intentionally) let it slip in a game magazine interview that the Horde faction was made to be slightly stronger than Alliance and alluded to it being that way in the lore.

    *** Should be noted that back then the official Blizzard company guild was Horde and the developers were members of it, thus likely causing Horde favoritism right from the start.


    This got a lot more players playing on the Horde side but also caused an uproar on the Alliance side, particularly on PVP servers. Claimed it was the racials eventually they allegedly made both sides the same by nerfing them but that was on the surface.

    I learned of an addon called REFlex that tracked PVP BG win losses from this thread:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...highlight=Bots

    Also where I tracked wins/losses for a day, ended up with 3 wins 18 loses using it and where ando1510 said “To get an accurate number you must do like +500 BGs or maybe even more

    This is what 503 BGs later looks like ( you show me anyone on Alliance with better stats I will show you a losing battle rage quitter) :



    Now on the surface 240 wins to 263 loses appears pretty even however when you take away the IOC & AV wins/losses it reveals an unbelievably lopsided picture, 71 wins to 257 loses!

    I would bet of those 257 loses less than 57 of them were even remotely close games.

    Even more stark is the AV and IoC stats (I play them non-stop when they are the Call to Arms BGs and to farm honor for motes, plus IoC seems to pop a lot doing random) 169 wins 6 loses!

    These stats confirm what I have experienced since vanilla WoW which is that there is something very wrong with WoW PVP.

    The difference between AV & IoC and all other BGs is that Alliance does not have to face the Horde head on to win them but in every other BG they do and are completely dominated.

    Why?

    • It is not because of battlegroups they no longer exist and I would think with the merged servers the mix of players is more diversified than ever.

    • It is not because the Horde has better players or out gears Alliance, it is a purely random environment that kind of consistency to bring about such lopsided wins loses in everything but AV and IoC is not even theoretically plausible. Besides that, nothing changes at the start of seasons when both sides are basically gearless.


    • It is not because the Horde are more organized or play better as a team which is what both AV and IoC require to win and Alliance apparently excels at, see IoC & AV win/loss stats.

    The only logical conclusion is the Horde faction is inherently more powerful!


    ***Now the AV and IoC stats could very well be communication problems in 40 man BGs; a dirty little secret in WoW seldom talked about but has been around since the beginning and could be the culprit. America is a country disliked around the world, on American servers it is assumed Alliance = majority American players. As such you get players from all over the world whom PVP on American servers as Horde for the single purpose of fighting American players.

    So you likely have a lot of players that do not speak English on the Horde side which is not much of a problem in smaller 10-15 BGs but likely causing a lot of coordination/communication problems in 40 mans.


    As I stated in the other thread, link posted above, I do remember someone calculating total damage for the top 5 Horde and top 5 Alliance players damage over a 20 BG period excluding AV & IoC assuming that the top 5 were players were most likely there the whole round. What they found was that the Horde players were averaging about 20% more damage and theorized that the Horde actually have 10% higher damage + 10% higher damage mitigation creating the 20% skew.

    It is also believed they are 10% faster, best observed in SofA demos from a high point like a gun tower, and I cannot tell you how many times I have been chasing horde on foot on my ranged toon and have them pull out of range without speed burst or how many times they have ran me down in the reverse.

    It is my belief they are 10% stronger across the board, have been since day one, and that Blizzard let it spiral out of control, now there is nothing they can do about it, in fact even have to mask it in RBGs by having factions switch sides.

    If true;

    And they admitted it but said they could not or would not do anything about it, then it would cause an uproar with the Alliance players, virtually all the Horde achievements would be ill gotten and should be stripped and cause mass faction changes to Horde killing the PVP part of the game.

    If they just removed it covertly and not said anything all BGs could very well be like IoC and AV are now causing a Horde uproar, mass faction changes to Alliance or abandonment of the PVP altogether killing the PVP part of the game.

    So no matter what we are stuck with it for the life of the game.

    Also if true, and Blizzard is well aware that a lot of foreign players play on American servers as Horde and why they are doing it and deliberately made and kept the Horde faction stronger knowing full well that it would allow that faction to dominate the Alliance side, would it not make Blizzard and anti-America company?
    Lol. Horde definitely has better players. Notice how nearly all of the top streamers are Horde. A lot of them have said they think Horde are badass as well as the previously exclusive Horde PvP guilds. Horde has way more good players than Alliance does.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by xlanonym0uslx View Post
    Lol. Horde definitely has better players. Notice how nearly all of the top streamers are Horde. A lot of them have said they think Horde are badass as well as the previously exclusive Horde PvP guilds. Horde has way more good players than Alliance does.
    So considering Alliance has been winning AV since the beginning (vanilla) while the Horde dominated AB and WSG and then every other BG where it requires them to be fought head on to win since, your hypothesis is they have just had the overwhelming majority of better players right out of the gate?

    A more palatable explanation is the Faction was and still is inherently more powerful and that created skewed win ratios, higher damage ratios, higher KB ratios etc.. which naturally attracts more PVP orientated players. Today they probably do indeed have more PVP players, not necessarily better, but just a 10% edge can turn ordinary to seemingly extraordinary.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    your hypothesis is they have just had the overwhelming majority of better players right out of the gate?
    yes
    Horde as a faction especially pre blood elves attracted more of the 15-25 crowd with a lot of free time, reflexes and willingness to learn their class
    I really doubt an advantage in speed etc would have gone unnoticed for almost 10 years

    horde just has better players on average

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulosio View Post
    But how does it get to 1 team feeling like they are / aren't going to win a particular BG in the 1st place ? We have a what came 1st, the chicken or the egg situation.

    I agree that when a team thinks they can win they actually try to do so though... [...]
    Since we're on a topic with anecdotical experiences...

    My experience as Horde in IoC:
    Join BG and start begging people to come to docks, explaining that if Alliance gets it it's an almost guaranteed loss.
    Gates open. ~10-15 people decide to come with me to docks. ~5 go to air base. 20+ go to middle, take the flag, then proceed to fight on the road and die on the way to the Alliance gate.
    At docks, we encounter 25-30 alliances and one of them is probably already taking the flag. In the following battle, we die or retreat.
    Alliance gets docks. Their bots/afk'ers stay at flag, their numbers being just enough to prevent ninjaing of the flag, while the main force gets into the Horde base.

    This happens over and over and over (unless the opposing team is german or russian and employ some weird hk farming tactic). From the moment the gates open, judging from how players spread on the map, horde players know if they either 1) have a chance (chance!) at wining; or 2) have a guaranteed loss.
    This is a major contributor to the team's morale if you ask me.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    yes
    Horde as a faction especially pre blood elves attracted more of the 15-25 crowd with a lot of free time, reflexes and willingness to learn their class
    I really doubt an advantage in speed etc would have gone unnoticed for almost 10 years

    horde just has better players on average
    Sure it would think about it, 10% is enough to give a distinct advantage but go mostly unnoticed.

    For example, about the only time you notice players with faster mount speeds in a BG is when the gates open and they run out ahead of everyone else, after the match has started and those same players are on their own riding across a BG you don't even notice. Same can be said of any stat buffed 10%, it is enough to give an advantage but not enough to stick out.

    They only way to tell aside from the win/loss is to sort of stand back and really watch what's going on; for speed, watch a battle at a flag in AB or BfG, then you start to notice, compare Horde Rogue movements with Alliance Rogues, Horde mages bounce strafing vs Alliance etc... Where I really noticed was in SSM RBGs, close quarters and everyone liked geared, Horde were flat out quicker.

    For DPS/Damage it is even harder to tell; you can watch the scoreboard, look at damage done, KBs etc... particularly between like classes, especially at this point in the season when gear level separation for the majority should be at a minimum thus should be relatively close but more often that not a wide degree of seperation.
    Last edited by Cobaltius; 2014-02-18 at 11:44 AM.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by BarosanuNr1 View Post
    Since we're on a topic with anecdotical experiences...

    My experience as Horde in IoC:
    Join BG and start begging people to come to docks, explaining that if Alliance gets it it's an almost guaranteed loss.
    Gates open. ~10-15 people decide to come with me to docks. ~5 go to air base. 20+ go to middle, take the flag, then proceed to fight on the road and die on the way to the Alliance gate.
    At docks, we encounter 25-30 alliances and one of them is probably already taking the flag. In the following battle, we die or retreat.
    Alliance gets docks. Their bots/afk'ers stay at flag, their numbers being just enough to prevent ninjaing of the flag, while the main force gets into the Horde base.

    This happens over and over and over (unless the opposing team is german or russian and employ some weird hk farming tactic). From the moment the gates open, judging from how players spread on the map, horde players know if they either 1) have a chance (chance!) at wining; or 2) have a guaranteed loss.
    This is a major contributor to the team's morale if you ask me.
    This exactly.

    Every IoC Alliance zergs docks because its a guaranteed cap being so close to their base. Horde literally cannot get there in time to stop it being taken.

    At this point the strategy for Horde is attack with airship + demos while simuntaneously destroying the glaives with stealthers.

    Fail at any part of this and they will lose, why? Because glaives are so much faster at battering down the gate the horde needs both the other two bases to down the alliance gate in time. Yes that is even with a team killing glaives!! (because they will always get shots off before dying)

    Until the docks early capping can be contested by red Horde, or glaive damage is drastically nerfed Horde will always have an uphill struggle.

  16. #156
    It's all a mindset.

    I used to PvP a lot back before BGs even existed, when it was Southshore vs TM. But at some point people figured out that a 2 faction system would never be balanced, and PvPers all drifted towards the Horde (at least on US servers). I haven't PvPed in a long time, sticking to PvE, and I decided to check things out again recently. Here's a prime example of what I saw simply Qing for random BGs. Yesterday: 8 losses 0 wins. Today: 4 losses 0 wins.

    In fact, looking at my achievement pane right now on this character, I have 56 BGs played and 14 wins. Now I know these are not averages, I know they are just my particular numbers, but my numbers are what I base my decisions upon, just like anybody else. So what is next to me in PvP? I'm quitting again for quite a few years, if not forever. Who is truly surprised about that? Who in their right mind would play a game where you lose the vast majority of matches? Doesn't fly in Poker, in FPS games, shouldn't fly in MMOs either.

    I'm just one among many, but this is the reason why Horde Q times are 10-15mins. This is why Alliance players take forever to get geared up as compared with Horde. This is the reason why Alliance players give up on PvP and why the situation doesn't, and will never change, unless Blizzard does something drastic to actually change things.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by elfguy View Post
    I'm just one among many, but this is the reason why Horde Q times are 10-15mins. This is why Alliance players take forever to get geared up as compared with Horde. This is the reason why Alliance players give up on PvP and why the situation doesn't, and will never change, unless Blizzard does something drastic to actually change things.
    Horde Q times 10-15 mins, Alliance 60 seconds but the Horde will out gear Alliance this season in no time that in and of itself shows how bad the faction balance is.

    It is the start of a new season, by this time everyone should be similarly geared, being a little better, squeezing out a few more DPS than opponent should not translate into complete dominations, it simply can not account for 2-3x the damage output or 10+ to 1 KB ratios.

    I have been part of some the most lopsided BGs & RBG's I have ever played in the last two days; Played ToK yesterday we could not even get to inner part to get an orb much less get to center most of the entire round, then went cartless in SM in a rated BG, they had two of three before we even all made it out of the cave, overran north and farmed us the rest of the round, could not kill a single one of them, 0 HK's.

    I simply do not buy that the Horde having a few more "better" players in a completely random environment equates to the utter domination being played out on US servers at least..
    Last edited by Cobaltius; 2014-02-28 at 01:31 AM.

  18. #158
    Alliance give up and cba on my battle group, rarely people are well geared, no one wants to do the objectives (most people have no idea what they are) in all BGs EXCEPT AV and IOC. When AV and IOC come knocking around alliance intelligence multiplies by a factor of 1000, they suddenly become a highly coordinated BG owning machine that is unstoppable.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by FruitBat69 View Post
    Alliance give up and cba on my battle group, rarely people are well geared, no one wants to do the objectives (most people have no idea what they are) in all BGs EXCEPT AV and IOC. When AV and IOC come knocking around alliance intelligence multiplies by a factor of 1000, they suddenly become a highly coordinated BG owning machine that is unstoppable.
    Because they know they can actually win those so everyone queues for them during those times. I don't typically BG much, but I've had the best luck queuing up with a couple other people as then you might actually be able to accomplish goals. Last two characters doing the BG's for the legendary, 2 shot ToK and 1 shot the mines. It all comes down to coordination among the players and horde are typically better at it than alliance.
    Originally Posted by Zarhym
    Someone needs to take away your keyboard until you're better able to read the explicit meaning in sentences without implying whatever you want in order to be contrary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    They waited far too long to fix issues that were addressed months ago, and because of the time crunch, its easier for them to cull everything. It's like swatting flies with a shotgun.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by pikachui View Post
    op you cant bring up stats and numbers then remove relevant stats and numbers to make your argument look better(IOC and AV stats).

    OP is a fgt

    Infracted.
    such mad, very alliance

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