However all those other BGs require little coordination and a lot of brute force to win, which would suggest that the Horde are not very coordinated, they never had to develop any, instead have become heavily reliant on just overpowering their opposition.
So the real question is; what is it that has allowed them to become almost solely dependent on overpowering their opposition and so successful at it, to the point that it is like playing against players that are 5-10 levels higher than you?
Last edited by Cobaltius; 2014-03-01 at 05:10 PM.
I've been playing both factions since Vanilla (OG Dwarf Warrior and Tauren Shaman), and yes, there is a huge skill gap generally speaking from Alliance to Horde. I can point to all the subtle difference that give Horde advantages, from the way the BG's are set up (yes, it matters, if a map is in one factions favor, its an uphill battle for the other), their racials, etc, but those alone are not the problem. That coupled with the original Horde community being extremely outnumbered in Vanilla and being "badass" in their art theme really brought in the more hardcore players to horde. Remember original Barrens chat? It also contributed to creating a community and brought everyone together at an early level. Playing as Alliance has always been very isolationist compared to playing Horde.
Ever since Blood elves and their OP racial at TBC launch (compared to the Blueberry GOTN that had a hard cast time and could be dispelled/spell stolen), they have been doing everything they can to attract more and more players to Horde, and understandable so, the population was still unbalanced, but here's the thing, even when population started to get closer and closer, they still kept providing more and more incentives to roll horde, and I honestly believe that after a while the dev's just forgot why they needed to do it and just did it because they loved playing Horde.
As this developed, people who are more intense and higher skilled eventually started to notice the differences, causing them to abandon ship and go to Horde. If someone is willing to reroll completely and put their long-time played characters behind them (or even today w/ faction transfers are willing to throw down the money to transfer) it means they are generally more dedicated to seeing results in PvP. The only time I saw people switching for Alliance was the one season in Cata when PvE trinkets were broken, causing the Human racial to be broken, after that was fixed it seemed as if Horde players switched back overnight. Also, it doesn't help that quests in Cata for horde are generally "kill alliance and take their base" while alliance quests are "go run around collecting flowers and (insert silly movie reference here)". This is how new players are introduced to their factions "Alliance = Lose, Horde = Win", and even MoP, which was supposed to fix this problem starts with a horde questline to assault and claim an alliance base, while alliance go look for missing fancy pants Anduin. Don't even get me started on 5.3. Yeah yeah, SoO I know, but really in my opinion it makes Alliance look even more incompetent, the "we will end you" makes me giggle every time I hear it. It just adds more and more to the stigma of "Alliance sucks" and "Fail-liance", even Horde quest givers can't help but openly mock Alliance and consistently call them weak.
As for direct player skill, if you play both factions and have even an ounce of observation you will be able to see that generally speaking, as Alliance if you fight a Horde character they will be playing well, tight, in a group, and following objectives. When playing Horde and fighting Alliance, I see keyboard turners, AFKers, using all the wrong buttons at the wrong times (trinketing after the lamest abilities), etc. I can 2v1 on a consistent basis when I play horde, trying to 2v1 as Alliance is much more difficult and generally a much bigger risk. Do I win as Alliance? Yes, but most the wins I feel like I have to double down and carry the group (or I have to Queue with a group of good players and STILL I feel like we have to carry the rest), as Horde I can relax a lot more and trust my Horde bro's just know what to do (because they do). After I made the switch to dedicate myself more to the Horde, it took me a long time to stop being surprised when I was fighting Alliance and to actually see my teammates helping me in a meaningful way, rather then just running around ADHD "headless chicken" style. Winning as Alliance is frustrating (my teammates are terrible), Winning as Horde is boring (my opponents are terrible).
Truthfully, this gap has completely snowballed and gets bigger and bigger every expansion and now has hit critical mass. That's why playing Alliance is just so bad it's become essentially unplayable. My frustrations with Alliance have boiled over at this point, and I really don't think I'm alone here. I have known that this is extremely unhealthy for the game since the very beginning and its seems like Blizzard has FINALLY noticed (after way too long) but honestly, I really don't see it changing anytime soon, even with the much deserved racial buffs to Alliance and the so called "Alliance expansion" WoD. The problem has gotten so deep and there's just almost no way to change such a strong 10 year old stigma.
There's a reason Alliance are so openly mocked, by both the WoW community as well as the Dev's (2011 Blizzcon says hello, "We'll keep trying", etc). It's really almost comical watching Blizzard panic trying to fix this problem in WoD, because it's a problem they created, intentionally perpetuated, and now is backfiring pretty brilliantly.
Last edited by blehmeh; 2014-03-03 at 03:36 AM.
what he said
I really don't see the point in denying the skill gap between horde and alliance players
majority of top pve guilds are horde, even if they just did it for better racials and would prefer to stay alliance it doesn't matter, that has 2 effect:
a) removes most of the top skilled guilds from the alliance player base
b) removes people who want to raid at that level from the alliance player base
it's similar in pvp, top players are horde, hence more people that care about playing on that level switch to horde leaving only the average and bad players on the alliance, again, this is not to say that the horde doesn't have those either, but it has a higher % of the "hardcore" the people more likely to care about class knowledge etc
Nothing here is new. It has always been like this, horde dominates bgs. It's not because of racials or lopsided landscapes in bgs, horde just attracts better pvp's in general. Nothing blizzard can do about it.
Simply put it IS because or racials. Thats why Horde is getting thiers NERFED and alliance is getting MASSIVE buffs. Face it the only good racials for alliance side is Human and NE. Thats why most alliance is Human/NE. Sad but true, Hopefully now that Alliance racials look more attractive, the better players will switch to alliance side. Im sick and tired of all the mouth-breathers failing on the alliance side.
Before people say "prove that racials are the problem" well alliance has said this for a long time that we needed better racials for the other races (dwarf,gnome dreanei). And All of my friends who play, pick horde side because "they have better racials". I asked them to switch ally side and they told me that alliance side has horrible racials and the only way they would play ally is if they got DPS racial buffs.
Finally blizzard is fixing them so i can finally play as a dwarf!!
Ok let me see if I get this right, the Horde from day one simply got all the best players that play WoW, as such not only have most of the top raid guilds but flat out own PVP areas like Winters grasp and Tol Barad near 24/7 since their existence on most all servers and dominate in ALL BGs except AV and IoC because where organization and coordination trumps brute force to win only bad Horde players play those?
That just being a better player in like gear translates to 20+% higher damage outputs and 10+ to 1 KB ratios in BG's?
Where I bet for every single Alliance with the bloodthirsty title there are a 100 Horde with that same title and 3-0 cap wins in WSG and TP are at least a 100 to 1 in favor of the Horde?
Sorry I just don't buy it, the lopsidedness is just too skewed to place it on a higher percentage of Horde players in a completely random environment just simply being that much better and it happening a overwhelming percentage of the time.
However a virtually unnoticeable 10% cross the board buff on the other hand would turn the ordinary in to extraordinary, and yield the above results. Which would in turn attract more players, create a dependency on overpowering their opposition thus struggle in BGs where organization and coordination is key, and be a far more logical and likely explanation.
Last edited by Cobaltius; 2014-03-04 at 12:30 PM.
It won't happen because it has nothing to do with racials just like it has nothing to do with the Horde side magically having all the best players in WoW whose skill levels are so miraculous, so far above the majority Alliance players it allows them to perform as if they were 5-10 levels higher than their Alliance opponents.
The only thing likely to change in WoD with regular BG's is side flipping like is being done in RBGs now which serves to mask the heavily skewed win/loss stats.
Last edited by Cobaltius; 2014-03-05 at 01:44 PM.
Ive always said since Vanilla Horde have had a massive advantage with the BS being closer in AB.
Last edited by Tart; 2014-03-05 at 12:46 PM.
This is what the first 100 Rated BGs of season 15 look like for me:
Most all the BGs were with geared 522+ players, on skype or vent with like ratings so we can eliminate better gear and communication. Most wins were very close most losses were blow outs, heck on several occasions could not even kill a single one of them even with target calling. In an environment where gear, strategy, communications and skill separation should be marginal it is still frustratingly lopsided.
We should not be seeing GY camping in rated at mid GY in TP with their flag carrier there spamming kek kek kek for the last 6 minutes of a round but I have. Should not be seeing rounds where one side is doing 20%+ more total damage and 10-1 KB ratios in rated but I have been in many. Where healing is such that one side can’t get a single HK in a 20 minute round, but I have.
Looking at the RBG ratings found here:
Out of the top 150 players only 5, yes "5" players are Alliance!
I would think even the naive would see there is something wrong with a 145-5 ratio of better players between the two factions.
Mere alleged skill separation between the two factions simply cannot be so great as to account for the degree lopsidedness in ranking as well as in the BG's themselves that I and others many others have witnessed, it has to be more than that of this I am certain.
Lets looks at this a different way;
In LFR when a raid wipes at a boss they get a buff called Determination which gives a 5% increase to damage and healing. After two wipes and getting two stacks (10% increase) that struggling raid team from all appearances goes from a clueless failing group to looking like a raid guild.
Now let’s say we have two factions in an MMO game and covertly gave one side two stacks of permanent Determination buff what would the games landscape look like?
The side with the hidden buff would naturally appear to have a majority of much more skilled players.
They would have the majority of top raid guilds.
They would virtually own PVP areas like Wintersgrasp and Tol Bard.
They would have the overwhelming majority of the top rated battle ground players.
They would dominate all battle grounds where they faced their opponents head on to win, regular and rated.
GY camping would be the norm for them, their damage out puts and KB ratios would be much higher, their healing would be such that it would not be uncommon for a single player on their team to even die once etc...
In other words the landscape of such a game would mirror World of Warcraft at least on US servers to a freaking “T”!
Last edited by Cobaltius; 2014-04-07 at 03:23 PM.
About the exact opposite ratio on EU servers. Good players want to play with other good players, and they all end up picking one side and migrating to that.
Good players choose alliance because of the overpowered racial. Alliance eu will destroy horde us in any kind of competitive match up
The amount of tinfoil is too much. Hidden 10% buff....
The only conspiracy I've ever considered is that (In BGs) Horde rez times after they die are less than Alliance rez times. I get 18-30 second Rez times consistently on my Rogue, but when I played a Horde DK it was single digits way more than I was used to.
I didn't even consider it a possibility until much later when I seemed to always be capable of zombie AoEing a node in AB with one other person against five people.
Anyway, I highly doubt there are any hidden conspiracy's Blizzard uses on us.
Because I'm pretty sure the Blizzcon 2013 championship involved Talbadar et al. (Skillcapped - Best team US) annihilating MIR - and every other invited team in the world - seemingly without breaking a sweat (or losing a round).
Not to start a whole NA vs EU thing, because there are mindblowingly good players all over the world - but "best vs. best" is a pretty common measure of who is best overall (even though its a fallacious metric) - and I don't even need to brag on Talbadar's behalf - because he's already beaten everyone of note repeatedly
(also, I still claim him as a Spriest - he's only Ele Shaman for FOTM, IMO!
In the roughly 7 years I've played WoW I've been Alliance and Horde. And quite frankly I can't seem to get rid of these people who want to throw in the fact that <Insert opposing faction> is so much better. I get the same thing with Russians now, even though they're usually not that great.
I've never noticed a huge difference when I play on the other faction and I keep winning 2/3 of my BGs.
See. From personal experience I can now conclude that there is no difference. But actually I can't come up with any conclusion since somebody else may have a whole different experience than me.
So why are we still trying to come up with these false conclusions when BG win ratio is different for every individual?
WoW without flying is like having Pizza, instead of flying right over it