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  1. #1

    Proof the Horde faction is inherently more powerful, kind of long post.

    *** Posting this here because I believe it affects more than just PVP, like Raid firsts, server firsts etc…

    First let me preface this with the little known fact that at the beginning of WoW very few players were playing Horde then one of the lead developers ( intentionally) let it slip in a game magazine interview that the Horde faction was made to be slightly stronger than Alliance and alluded to it being that way in the lore.

    *** Should be noted that back then the official Blizzard company guild was Horde and the developers were members of it, thus likely causing Horde favoritism right from the start.


    This got a lot more players playing on the Horde side but also caused an uproar on the Alliance side, particularly on PVP servers. Claimed it was the racials eventually they allegedly made both sides the same by nerfing them but that was on the surface.

    I learned of an addon called REFlex that tracked PVP BG win losses from this thread:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...highlight=Bots

    Also where I tracked wins/losses for a day, ended up with 3 wins 18 loses using it and where ando1510 said “To get an accurate number you must do like +500 BGs or maybe even more

    This is what 503 BGs later looks like ( you show me anyone on Alliance with better stats I will show you a losing battle rage quitter) :



    Now on the surface 240 wins to 263 loses appears pretty even however when you take away the IOC & AV wins/losses it reveals an unbelievably lopsided picture, 71 wins to 257 loses!

    I would bet of those 257 loses less than 57 of them were even remotely close games.

    Even more stark is the AV and IoC stats (I play them non-stop when they are the Call to Arms BGs and to farm honor for motes, plus IoC seems to pop a lot doing random) 169 wins 6 loses!

    These stats confirm what I have experienced since vanilla WoW which is that there is something very wrong with WoW PVP.

    The difference between AV & IoC and all other BGs is that Alliance does not have to face the Horde head on to win them but in every other BG they do and are completely dominated.

    Why?

    • It is not because of battlegroups they no longer exist and I would think with the merged servers the mix of players is more diversified than ever.

    • It is not because the Horde has better players or out gears Alliance, it is a purely random environment that kind of consistency to bring about such lopsided wins loses in everything but AV and IoC is not even theoretically plausible. Besides that, nothing changes at the start of seasons when both sides are basically gearless.

    • It is not because the Horde are more organized or play better as a team which is what both AV and IoC require to win and Alliance apparently excels at, see IoC & AV win/loss stats.

    The only logical conclusion is the Horde faction is inherently more powerful!


    ***Now the AV and IoC stats could very well be communication problems in 40 man BGs; a dirty little secret in WoW seldom talked about but has been around since the beginning and could be the culprit. America is a country disliked around the world, on American servers it is assumed Alliance = majority American players. As such you get players from all over the world whom PVP on American servers as Horde for the single purpose of fighting American players.

    So you likely have a lot of players that do not speak English on the Horde side which is not much of a problem in smaller 10-15 BGs but likely causing a lot of coordination/communication problems in 40 mans.


    As I stated in the other thread, link posted above, I do remember someone calculating total damage for the top 5 Horde and top 5 Alliance players damage over a 20 BG period excluding AV & IoC assuming that the top 5 were players were most likely there the whole round. What they found was that the Horde players were averaging about 20% more damage and theorized that the Horde actually have 10% higher damage + 10% higher damage mitigation creating the 20% skew.

    It is also believed they are 10% faster, best observed in SofA demos from a high point like a gun tower, and I cannot tell you how many times I have been chasing horde on foot on my ranged toon and have them pull out of range without speed burst or how many times they have ran me down in the reverse.

    It is my belief they are 10% stronger across the board, have been since day one, and that Blizzard let it spiral out of control, now there is nothing they can do about it, in fact even have to mask it in RBGs by having factions switch sides.

    If true;

    And they admitted it but said they could not or would not do anything about it, then it would cause an uproar with the Alliance players, virtually all the Horde achievements would be ill gotten and should be stripped and cause mass faction changes to Horde killing the PVP part of the game.

    If they just removed it covertly and not said anything all BGs could very well be like IoC and AV are now causing a Horde uproar, mass faction changes to Alliance or abandonment of the PVP altogether killing the PVP part of the game.

    So no matter what we are stuck with it for the life of the game.

    Also if true, and Blizzard is well aware that a lot of foreign players play on American servers as Horde and why they are doing it and deliberately made and kept the Horde faction stronger knowing full well that it would allow that faction to dominate the Alliance side, would it not make Blizzard and anti-America company?
    Last edited by Cobaltius; 2014-02-05 at 02:46 PM.

  2. #2
    High Overlord Escariot's Avatar
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    This is known. Metzen has a boner for green buffed men(anyone surprised?), so he pushes the gameplay dev team to make Horde stronger.

    I say to this what I say to ever horde: 'Just fucking die!'

    i
    cast blessin' of the hood upon you...dem dat some heavy shit 4 sho

  3. #3
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    If horde was significantly more powerful in terms of racials, they would win AV too as it's a PvE BG (Which horde supposedly have MASSSSIVE advantages in, not the actual minor advantage)

    The reason is assymetrical maps - whether this is defensible or not is irrelevant with large statistics (OP's is not but whatever). It's EASIER to zerg-win as alliance, therefore alliance will win more upon the many games played this way.

    Once you look at symmetrical maps it shows horde superiority (Ignore SSM as it's likely still tainted by previously being horde favoured). Due to racials? Possibly. Due to PvE'ers (majority of the game) going horde and this having a knock on effect? maybe.

    But then we have SotA, where between the vehicles and bombs very little comes down to the actual racials themselves - leaving at face value quite strange arguments.

    Horde players are better at these BG's (more likely that better players switched horde for minmax racials etc. than "better players pick horde")
    Horde players premade more (this could be very likely, I have no idea - horde has queues so its logical that people would have more incentive to make sure they win)
    The BG algorithm forms better balanced horde teams than alliance teams
    Horde racials are significantly better, and cause wins in most BG's but don't seem to affect the large BG's

    I'd say 2 seems most likely, thinking about it. If horde has to queue 15 mins to get in while alliance doesnt, horde has much larger reason to make sure that 1 game they get per alliance 2 (effectively) is a win.

    But hey, it's all BS speculation to pass time
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  4. #4
    Mechagnome Narwhalosh Whalescream's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Escariot View Post
    This is known. Metzen has a boner for green buffed men(anyone surprised?), so he pushes the gameplay dev team to make Horde stronger.

    I say to this what I say to ever horde: 'Just fucking die!'
    When he privatly touches himself he screams: FOR THE HORDE LOK'TAR OGAR!
    Poor pandas, aint getting any lore the next few expansions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewor View Post
    Jaylock more like Gayblock

  5. #5
    Warchief MrApple's Avatar
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    Faction-representation in arena by rating:

    2200+

    Horde 50.3 % (999)
    Alliance 49.7 % (986)

    2400+

    Alliance 58.8 % (802)
    Horde 41.2 % (562)

    2600+

    Alliance 73.5 % (86)
    Horde 26.5 % (31)

    Edit: It seems you were talking about lol-bgs.
    Epic!

  6. #6
    The Patient KonkeroaR's Avatar
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    It's more of a morale issue in AV and IoC. Horde just assume they're going to lose those 2 BGs, and pull stupid shit (like Vann with 4 towers still up). On the opposite side of the spectrum, if Horde joins AB or WSG, they inherently work together (most of the time) and feel as if they have a good shot at a win, so they'll give it their all.

    Yes there may be a benefit to one faction or another in terms of racials or what have you, but it's mostly psychological.

  7. #7
    maybe give another alliance race that gets them out of CC. already got 2

  8. #8
    I think people would be spamming it all over forums if horde did 10% more dmg. I mean you could TELL the difference by having characters in both factions wouldn't you?

  9. #9
    op you cant bring up stats and numbers then remove relevant stats and numbers to make your argument look better(IOC and AV stats).

    OP is a fgt

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Zaelsino; 2014-02-05 at 03:54 PM.

  10. #10
    How does 10% damage mitigation add their damage by 10%?

  11. #11
    This really needs to be looked at if it doesn't fix itself when WoD comes out.

  12. #12
    Scarab Lord Wildberry's Avatar
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    Maybe Horde just attracts better players, and the only reason you guys win AV and IoC so much is because no self-respecting PvPer wants to do a 40 man PvE Zergfest? Which means most Horde players Blacklist it.

    Also, I just have to laugh at the idiots still flaming Metzen. Were you guys harassed by Horde players at Blizzcon? Kosak's the one running things now.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImportantLoreInformation View Post
    Seriously. Can this guy please be banned from the forums?
    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    Could we just get this fucking clown a ban or something? Pretty please?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by pikachui View Post
    op you cant bring up stats and numbers then remove relevant stats and numbers to make your argument look better(IOC and AV stats).

    OP is a fgt
    Uh, forcing alliance to play the two big dumb PvE BGs to balanced out their W/L ration when Horde don't even q for it is just fine to remove from the equation.

  14. #14
    Scarab Lord Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughtrey View Post
    Uh, forcing alliance to play the two big dumb PvE BGs to balanced out their W/L ration when Horde don't even q for it is just fine to remove from the equation.
    Not really. Just because you can barely call them BG's doesn't mean the Alliance doesn't dominate those two.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImportantLoreInformation View Post
    Seriously. Can this guy please be banned from the forums?
    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    Could we just get this fucking clown a ban or something? Pretty please?

  15. #15
    Why does alliance win av and ioc so much? IoC has same travel time to docks as horde.

  16. #16
    Titan Wildtree's Avatar
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    As the Arena stats show, the claim how Horde is more powerful is essentially wrong. Otherwise, well Arena would have the same tendencies in stats.

    The real reason must therefore lie somewhere else. To find it one would have to have access to real conclusive data. We don't have that data. Blizzard may have it though, and might be able to interpret it accordingly.

    One possible explanation could be, that Alliance side has more casual PVPers than there are on Horde side.
    Casual PVP could mean that there may be more Alliance players in mixed gear or dominantly PVE gear equipped, while on Horde side are more fully PVP geared players are active.

    There are so many factors that influence the outcome of the battles, it's almost impossible to make any statement at all.
    Last edited by Wildtree; 2014-02-05 at 03:59 PM.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  17. #17
    The Patient
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    So you, personally, ran 500 BGs, ended up with a losing record, and are using this as proof that the Horde as a faction is stronger?

    Let me leave a few links here for your perusal:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
    Here is what you might consider an unexpected truth: The only place where I commonly see elitist assholes is here. I rarely encounter them in the game. The game as portrayed on forums is not the game that most people actually experience. - MoanaLisa

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    The only logical conclusion is the Horde faction is inherently more powerful!
    Or... you're really bad at PvP, so you lose battlegrounds with fewer members, where individuals are more important.

    The plural of anecdote is not data. You're one player and that means that:
    1. Your sample size is way too small compared to the overall battleground playing player base.
    2. You're only getting one point of view of battlegrounds and don't have a control group to see how your ability plays into winning and losing.
    3. You haven't controlled for time of day, when more or less players of a faction may be online, skewing the player base.
    4. You haven't controlled for gear level.
    5. You haven't controlled for class distribution in battlegrounds.
    6. You haven't controlled for self-selection bias, since players can choose to queue for individual battlegrounds or blacklist two.
    7. You haven't controlled for self-selection bias in that better PvPers may choose one side over another for any number of reasons, even if game play is balanced.

    I cannot emphasize this enough: the plural of anecdote is not data. Based on your misunderstanding of that basic concept, I assume you haven't taken a statistics course, ever. I urge you to either sign up for a course at your current educational institution or, if you are not currently attending an educational institution, seek out a nearby community college and sign up for an introduction to statistics course.

  19. #19
    Are you trying to insinuate that blizzard gives the horde a hidden dmg buff in bgs? Or just that racials are better on horde, your post isn't clear.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Fufu View Post
    Or... you're really bad at PvP, so you lose battlegrounds with fewer members, where individuals are more important.

    The plural of anecdote is not data. You're one player and that means that:
    1. Your sample size is way too small compared to the overall battleground playing player base.
    2. You're only getting one point of view of battlegrounds and don't have a control group to see how your ability plays into winning and losing.
    3. You haven't controlled for time of day, when more or less players of a faction may be online, skewing the player base.
    4. You haven't controlled for gear level.
    5. You haven't controlled for class distribution in battlegrounds.
    6. You haven't controlled for self-selection bias, since players can choose to queue for individual battlegrounds or blacklist two.
    7. You haven't controlled for self-selection bias in that better PvPers may choose one side over another for any number of reasons, even if game play is balanced.

    I cannot emphasize this enough: the plural of anecdote is not data. Based on your misunderstanding of that basic concept, I assume you haven't taken a statistics course, ever. I urge you to either sign up for a course at your current educational institution or, if you are not currently attending an educational institution, seek out a nearby community college and sign up for an introduction to statistics course.
    If only the OP was a professional, what an amateur mistake. If he took himself half as seriously as this post, he totally would have been on to something.

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