Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst
1
2
  1. #21
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Brawl Pub
    Posts
    4,218
    DPET definitely does account for focus, which is why AS and AS-ToTH can be differentiated, with the latter being higher DPET. "Execute Time" not only refers to the time it takes to execute, but the cost it takes to execute.

  2. #22
    I understood that BA has a higher DPET than ES. But during LnL with 4pc there is a chance of firing ES throughout the whole duration of LnL (10 sec?) and any shot used during that would result in a loss of one ES. Delaying BA until LnL has faded is probably not going to cost you a full BA (due to its relatively long duration).
    Am I missing something here?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Piando View Post
    I understood that BA has a higher DPET than ES. But during LnL with 4pc there is a chance of firing ES throughout the whole duration of LnL (10 sec?) and any shot used during that would result in a loss of one ES. Delaying BA until LnL has faded is probably not going to cost you a full BA (due to its relatively long duration).
    Am I missing something here?
    BA can proc another charge of LnL refreshing it's duration, I've had chains of over 20 explosive shots due to some seriously good RNG before.

  4. #24
    Field Marshal Solased's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    99
    I use BA over ES because Mostly you get 5-9 procs and it lasts for 10 seconds
    A GCD is about 1 second so you can do 9 ES and 1 BA in 10 Secs if you can spam good enough.

  5. #25
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Brawl Pub
    Posts
    4,218
    Quote Originally Posted by Piando View Post
    I understood that BA has a higher DPET than ES. But during LnL with 4pc there is a chance of firing ES throughout the whole duration of LnL (10 sec?) and any shot used during that would result in a loss of one ES. Delaying BA until LnL has faded is probably not going to cost you a full BA (due to its relatively long duration).
    Am I missing something here?
    The LnL buff lasts for 12s, the 4pc merely allows the chance for a charge not to be consumed. Delaying 1 ES doesn't matter, as long as 1) the LnL buff doesn't fall off, which I don't think has happened ever, or 2) the LnL buff isn't overwritten by a new LnL buff, which can happen at the very end, and munch free, still unused charges. This is something you should be keeping track of by tracking the ICD of LnL, which is 10s.

  6. #26
    The Patient KonkeroaR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    The Frozen Wastes... of Canada
    Posts
    309
    If you're getting close to capping focus, is it worth it to use AmoC when it comes off CD mid ES spam, or just delay it by a few seconds?

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by KonkeroaR View Post
    If you're getting close to capping focus, is it worth it to use AmoC when it comes off CD mid ES spam, or just delay it by a few seconds?
    amoc is your second highest DPET skill next to stampede, it should be used over everything else when it comes off cd unless you know you can get more uses by delaying it for a sub 20% phase such as garrosh.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    amoc is your second highest DPET skill next to stampede, it should be used over everything else when it comes off cd unless you know you can get more uses by delaying it for a sub 20% phase such as garrosh.

    *or you know that delaying it won't end up with losing a usage throughout the fight. In a four minute fight like Iron juggernaut is for my guild nowadays, you get one at the start, and one in the middle. The third use won't be possible even if used above everything else on pull and when the CD is up. Therefore, it really doesn't matter if you delay AMoC with say, a minute, and use it on the 3 minute mark instead of the 2 minute, if that fits better with procs/CDs etc.

  9. #29
    Legendary! TJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    6,426
    It's best to look at your previous logs of fights and see the fight lengths before deciding when to use crows.

  10. #30
    DPET is irrelevant for BA and SrS because they are 100% uptime DoTs, you lose a few ticks by delaying them, you don't lose the whole spell cast, therefore the total damage per cast is irrelevant in prioritizing spells. You should keep casting Explosive Shot and only refresh Black Arrow if you cap focus, are snapshotting high Agility procs or the LnL ICD is ready.

  11. #31
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Brawl Pub
    Posts
    4,218
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    DPET is irrelevant for BA and SrS because they are 100% uptime DoTs, you lose a few ticks by delaying them, you don't lose the whole spell cast, therefore the total damage per cast is irrelevant in prioritizing spells. You should keep casting Explosive Shot and only refresh Black Arrow if you cap focus, are snapshotting high Agility procs or the LnL ICD is ready.
    While that's true for SrS, whose DPET is so high because you can keep it up infinitely, BA has no refresh mechanic, and therefore its DPET is calculated on its actual damage per execute, IE, 35 focus over 20s. That it never falls off is irrelevant, because you have to use the same 35 focus to cast it for the same 20s again. So when its DPET is calculated as higher, you can be reasonably sure that that's a good priority to maintain.

  12. #32
    Legendary! TJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    6,426
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    While that's true for SrS, whose DPET is so high because you can keep it up infinitely, BA has no refresh mechanic, and therefore its DPET is calculated on its actual damage per execute, IE, 35 focus over 20s. That it never falls off is irrelevant, because you have to use the same 35 focus to cast it for the same 20s again. So when its DPET is calculated as higher, you can be reasonably sure that that's a good priority to maintain.
    That would be my thinking too. Only time it would fall back in prio would be when the mob wouldn't last the full 20 seconds.

  13. #33
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Brawl Pub
    Posts
    4,218
    I'm still rocking an LFR AoC and a normal mode TED. Everything else is heroic-ish (except for tier head/shoulders, normal mode, but not replacing because of 4pc).

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    While that's true for SrS, whose DPET is so high because you can keep it up infinitely, BA has no refresh mechanic, and therefore its DPET is calculated on its actual damage per execute, IE, 35 focus over 20s. That it never falls off is irrelevant, because you have to use the same 35 focus to cast it for the same 20s again. So when its DPET is calculated as higher, you can be reasonably sure that that's a good priority to maintain.
    "It's DPET is calculated on it's actual DPET." Well no shit. Obviously it does a certain amount of damage per execute, what I was saying is that since you can maintain 100% uptime with it you are only missing ticks by delaying it, not missing entire casts of the spell, therefore saying "BA is higher priority because it has higher DPET" is false.

    Also I'm fairly certain that DPET in SimCraft doesn't include resources. Otherwise it would be impossible to calculate the DPET of stampede (divide by 0) and Cobra/Steady shot would be negative DPET.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    "It's DPET is calculated on it's actual DPET." Well no shit. Obviously it does a certain amount of damage per execute, what I was saying is that since you can maintain 100% uptime with it you are only missing ticks by delaying it, not missing entire casts of the spell, therefore saying "BA is higher priority because it has higher DPET" is false.

    Also I'm fairly certain that DPET in SimCraft doesn't include resources. Otherwise it would be impossible to calculate the DPET of stampede (divide by 0) and Cobra/Steady shot would be negative DPET.
    can just add an exception for stampede so it just calculates the damage without dividing by anything.

    Cobra and steady would just be calculated with regards to the time taken to cast.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    can just add an exception for stampede so it just calculates the damage without dividing by anything.

    Cobra and steady would just be calculated with regards to the time taken to cast.
    While possible reasoning I still don't see at all how DPET could/would/does include resources. Every SimCraft guide I looked at says nothing of resource cost for DPET and I've never seen anyone say it does apart from in this thread, also never seen any differentiation between TotH AS and normal AS in a DPET table as eschatological seems to have, also never seen a difference between LnL ES or normal ES. Even the name "Execute Time" does nothing to imply resource cost.

  17. #37
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Brawl Pub
    Posts
    4,218
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    While possible reasoning I still don't see at all how DPET could/would/does include resources. Every SimCraft guide I looked at says nothing of resource cost for DPET and I've never seen anyone say it does apart from in this thread, also never seen any differentiation between TotH AS and normal AS in a DPET table as eschatological seems to have, also never seen a difference between LnL ES or normal ES. Even the name "Execute Time" does nothing to imply resource cost.
    Glurp is right, SimCraft isn't accounting for focus costs. Some tool I saw somewhere did, and it's bothering the hell out of me now. It might have been shadowcraft for rogues since none of their abilities are CD-based, but only energy limited.

    Someone should really do that for hunters, imo. BA might be higher DPET than ES, but it seems to me that not accounting for its 35 focus cost vs. the potential free cost of ES is a mistake. Or maybe the idea that we will always have enough focus to cast whatever negates that concept? IDK. Focus isn't an infinite concept, and moreover, we have to cast abilities to regen it at acceptable rates, unlike rogues/ferals. I'd imagine a true priority would be LnL-ES > BA > ES, but it seems these calculations were never made.

  18. #38
    I spam ES over everything.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •