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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaide View Post
    Said it before, and I'll say it again:

    If it makes sense in the lore to allow DH to be a new class, it WILL happen, and frankly, it's more likely to happen than most other ideas (ie tinker). The EXACT same arguments were being made about death knights before they were released: "ALL death knights are evil without exception, it CAN'T happen", "half their abilities are already on other classes in one way or another"

    People need to realize, the abilities each class 'has' are based on WCIII, where a unit had 4 abilities max. FOUR. In WoW, EVERY class has many times that amount. Do you remember paladins in WCIII having avenging wrath? Me either, but it's an (if not THE) iconic paladin ability.

    Another interesting tidbit is that warlocks and death knights are SO CLOSELY related, that Gul'dan (arguably the MOST notable warlock, even standing in for the role in hearthstone) is listed as a DEATH KNIGHT in warcraft 2 (http://www.wowwiki.com/Warcraft_II_units), and don't whine about the source being wowwiki, his abilities in WCII were specifically those given to death knights.

    In order to differentiate DK's for Warlocks, Blizzard changed their entire Fu relating to death knights. Death Knights created by ner'zhul/arthas were more combat focused, whereas the death knights of old were more casting focused. Just take a look at their abilities: http://www.wowwiki.com/Warcraft_II_abilities.

    As a matter of fact, almost HALF their abilities are keystone abilities of other classes in Warcraft lore.
    -Unholy Armor is essentially synonymous with the warlock spells fel armor and plays like a dark version of a bubble.
    -Haste, yes DK's had the ability to magically buff their allies with haste. This is a targeted self/ally buff with a punishingly limited duration, so it is different than the passive self haste buff DK's enjoy in WoW.
    -Whirlwind, yep, the druid spell cyclone. To the letter, identical.

    Did Blizzard edit this fact out with the changes in WCIII? No. They explained it away saying that DK's were varied in style and the 'newer generation' favored direct combat and disease over spells. This is evident when you realize that the ghost of an old Death Knight haunts SMV and has the iconic WCII abilities (http://www.wowhead.com/npc=21797#abilities)

    What's the point I'm making? If Blizzard thinks DH is a good choice for the lore setting, it wouldn't be difficult in the least to explain that while they harness similar magics to that of the warlock, they feel in essence, more like a rogue.
    How about the main fact that the biggest thing that makes a Demon Hunter stand out in any wiki/source, is their ability to Metamorph? And that it's already the key ability to an existing class spec.

    It's not like it's a minor/average ability that's being reworked, it's THE ability for demo locks. It's like If I went in to your favorite class, let's say, is a feral druid, and I said, "yknow, we are making a new class, that would benefit more from looking like a cat. So we are giving you the middle finger, taking a core mechanic of this EXISTING class, don't worry we will give you SOMETHING...I guess and giving it to the other class because some fanboys want to run around named Illidanx and circle jerk each other's glaives."

    A death knight had much more room for reworking, they didn't have a core ability like meta that was given to a class years prior. It's what MAKES a DH, not the glaives, not the blindfolds, the meta. In fact, did you know the whole "ripping your eyes out to see through fel energies," is a VERY rare case among demon hunters? Even Illidan is unique for it, being his was done be frickin Sargeras himself.

  2. #42
    You don't even know much about demon hunter lore if you think Illidan is the only demon hunter with spectral sight. Richard Knaak fucked the lore up there. There was originally a ritual spoken of in the WC3 manual that all demon hunters endure. Are you seriously trying to claim all other demon hunters in WOW are blind or just wear a blindfold in homage without having spectral sight? Have you done Sindweller's questline in Felwood? He specifically gives you spectral sight for a time.

    You are making wild subjective claims as if they are objective and you lack more than a very basic grasp of the history and appeal of this class, selfishly supplicating it with your own opinions as fact.

    This is just going in circles. Demon hunters may never happen. Or they might happen.

    Going out of your way to argue they won't happen suggests an agenda here, or simply a love of arguing and conflict.
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  3. #43
    Brewmaster Caninese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually we have a very good idea on what Demon Hunters can do in WoW. We have the WC3 hero unit, we have Illidan in Well of Eternity, and we have several DH NPCs from TBC to pull abilities from.

    The vast majority of abilities from those sources are currently in the Warlock class.
    The WC3 Demon Hunter only has 4 abilities.
    Illidan doesn't do much other than sneak around.
    NPCs aren't really great indicators, as their pool of abilities is rather small.'

    Bottom line, there's likely some tricks that Demon Hunters have that we haven't seen yet. Not every Demon Hunter can be the same, just like not every <insert class name here> can be the same. The WC3 hero argument is one that I see come up frequently, and it isn't exactly a good one. How many abilities do classes have in comparison to their respective WC3 counterparts? A LOT more. If Demon Hunters were to become a class, Blizzard would just come up with some new abilities for them.

  4. #44
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caninese View Post
    The WC3 Demon Hunter only has 4 abilities.
    Both DKs and Monks had all of their WC3 abilities at the time of their implementation into WoW. There was never a point in WoW where another class had DK or Brewmaster abilities from WC3. Other hero concepts like Blademasters and Shadow Hunters got their WC3 abilities broken apart and given to existing WoW classes. Demon Hunters were part of the latter group. Their abilities were given to existing classes, indicating that Blizzard never had any intention of making them into a class.

    Illidan doesn't do much other than sneak around.
    Illidan is the prime Demon Hunter. It'd be like saying that Arthas doesn't matter to Death Knights.

    NPCs aren't really great indicators, as their pool of abilities is rather small.
    Their abilities match the WC3 Demon Hunter's abilities, just like proper WoW classes do.

    Bottom line, there's likely some tricks that Demon Hunters have that we haven't seen yet.
    How can that be the case when Demon Hunters are controlled by Blizzard, and Blizzard themselves have fused the Demon Hunter with the Warlock class?

    I mean seriously, who do you expect to make Demon Hunters into their own class? The very same company who is currently giving Demon Hunter abilities to Warlocks?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaide View Post
    Said it before, and I'll say it again:

    If it makes sense in the lore to allow DH to be a new class, it WILL happen, and frankly, it's more likely to happen than most other ideas (ie tinker). The EXACT same arguments were being made about death knights before they were released: "ALL death knights are evil without exception, it CAN'T happen", "half their abilities are already on other classes in one way or another"
    Actually it doesn't make sense in lore. We exterminated hundreds of Demon Hunters during TBC, and Illidan is viewed as a traitor among his people, as well as throughout the Alliance and Horde. Also according to lore, there's only supposed to be a handful of Demon Hunters throughout the world, because it takes rigorous training, and Demon Hunters aren't willing to train people. Most of them are reclusive loners who only occupy demon infested areas. The idea that suddenly there would be thousands of Demon Hunters running around actually contradicts lore entirely.

    Also a Demon Hunter class is not more likely to happen than a technology-based (Tinker) class. Blizzard wants classes to be unique from each other, yet tied to the Warcraft universe. Tinkers fit both of those goals. Also the Tinker hero's WC3 abilities are still absent from the game, and technology is becoming more and more widespread in Azeroth. A Tinker class would also benefit Gnomes and Goblins, since it would be a class that finally represents their culture. Finally a Tinker class is a highly broad and flexible concept that could be applied in a myriad of ways. Unlike Demon Hunters that must stick to a rigid theme in order to be recognized by fans, Tinkers could be anything from pilots of mechs, to inventors who wear hammer tanks on their back, to a class that dual-wields pistols, to a pet class that attacks enemies with robotic minions.

    In short, Tinkers have all the advantages and none of the weaknesses of the Demon Hunter concept.

    People need to realize, the abilities each class 'has' are based on WCIII, where a unit had 4 abilities max. FOUR. In WoW, EVERY class has many times that amount. Do you remember paladins in WCIII having avenging wrath? Me either, but it's an (if not THE) iconic paladin ability.
    The number of abilities is irrelevant. The WC3 abilities are the CORE abilities of every WoW class, and the starting point in their class creation. Again, we only need to look at Death Knights and Brewmasters (Monks) to see the importance of those WC3 abilities. Before their implementation, none of their abilities were in existing WoW classes. Concepts that do have their WC3 abilities in existing WoW classes have little to no chance of becoming a stand alone WoW class.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2014-02-07 at 12:05 PM.

  5. #45
    The Patient Arberian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The number of abilities is irrelevant. The WC3 abilities are the CORE abilities of every WoW class, and the starting point in their class creation. Again, we only need to look at Death Knights and Brewmasters (Monks) to see the importance of those WC3 abilities. Before their implementation, none of their abilities were in existing WoW classes. Concepts that do have their WC3 abilities in existing WoW classes have little to no chance of becoming a stand alone WoW class.
    It is relevant .. If Blizzard can create new Spells from the Paladin Concept like Avenging Wrath , than it can create new abilities from the Demon Hunter concept ( abilities which are not in WC3) . The Metamorphosis ability is taken by Warlocks , but not all Demon Hunters were capable of using this Ability , so the type of Metamorphosis the Demon Hunters use must be changed by Blizzard , and this doesnt go against the Demon Hunters concept. For example : Demon hunter Ability : ShadowBlink: You Blink 8 yards reducing the damage taken by 50% and increasing movement speed by 50% for the next seconds after Blink.
    Flames of Azzinoth: You summon 2 Fel Fire Elementals which will help you to attack and tank your enemies. Lasts for 30 seconds.
    TerrorBlade: Attacks the enemy dealing 130% weapon Damage reducing the damage that the enemy does by 20%. Lasts for 14 seconds.
    Shadow Copy : Summon a copy of yourself to attack the target for the next 6 seconds. Deals 20% of the damage that the Demon hunter deals. Doesnt copy the abilities used by the Demon hunter.

    I see the Demon Hunters more like Battle Mages than Melee Warlocks.
    I see the Demon Hunters more like Chaos Death Knights than Dark Rogues.
    The differences between Warlocks and Demon Hunters are like the differences of the Priests and the Paladins. The only difference between Priests and Paladins is that the Paladins are Priests that wear Heavy Armor and use the Power of the Light on their Weapons. Blizzard could just give the Priests 3 other Specs and heavy armor instead of creating the Paladin Class.

    An analysis of all the Demon Hunter abilities:
    Metamorphosis: An ability which is used by a very low number of the Demon Hunters. This ability isnt neccessary for the Demon Hunter concept because most of the Demon Hunters dont use this ability.
    Mana Burn: No Class uses this ability and can be redesigned so that it would not be OP for the Demon hunters.
    Evasion: An Ability used by Rogues, so that cannot be implemented.
    Immolation: The Immolation of the Demon Hunters is totally different from the Warlocks' and that can be implemeted in another name.

    Warlocks can't channel Chaos thorugh weapons. Furthermore they dont use weapons to destory enemies while inbattle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Praetor View Post
    One crucial point behind the popularity of WoW, often forgotten, is, in my oppinion, the way the game allows us to live our Warcraft fantasy in an expansive and breathing world.

    WoW provided a away for the legion of Warcraft RTS games fans a way of playing as one those units they had controlled in the previous games of the franchise. More importantly, it gave them a way of playing as one of those Heroic units they had controlled in the previous games.

    Your fantasy of being a Turalyon or an Uther? Fulfilled through the Paladin class. A Lothar or a Doomhammer? The Warrior. Guldan? Malfurion? Thrall? Rexxar? Vol'jin? Jaina or Khadgar? Tyrande? Or even one unit not affiliated with any hero such as the Priest, the Shaman, or the Witch doctor.

    All of those, you could play the equivalent of them in game. And that was simply amazing. Even if the corresponding class might not be a full copy of those units. The feeling was there.

    Of course, not all of our beloved heroes were available. Arthas? Had to wait till WOTLK. Chen? Till MOP. And Illidan? Still waiting.

    This is why, even though I recognize that there's very little room for it, that I believe that an incarnation of the Demon Hunter must be made available in game. The possibility of playing as an Illidan is simply essential to the fulfillment of WOW's promise.

    You might say the Warlock already fulfills it. It does not. Give that class a melee spec and unlock it for Night Elves and I might accept that. But at the momment? It most certanly does not.

    You might also say that wanting to play as an Illidan is simply being a fanboy, and that's not a good argument to be used when it comes to creating a class.

    NONSENSE, I say! That's the whole point of this game! Allowing us, Warcraft fanboys, to live out our Warcraft fantasies!

    I trust Blizzard to find a way to implement such a class in an interesting way. After what they did with the Monk class and Pandaria, I know they would do a great job.

    It might not even be called Demon Hunter, the same way that the Monk isn't called Brewmaster, but I still hope that the promise will, someday, be fulfilled.
    This is the main reason why Demon Hunters are more likely to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    How can that be the case when Demon Hunters are controlled by Blizzard, and Blizzard themselves have fused the Demon Hunter with the Warlock class?

    I mean seriously, who do you expect to make Demon Hunters into their own class? The very same company who is currently giving Demon Hunter abilities to Warlocks?
    I have never seen Blizzard announcing that Demon Hunters are fused with the Warlocks. And Furthermore you got no proof that Warlocks use mainly Arcane Energy as Demon Hunters do . Furthermore Metamorphosis isnt used by all Demon Hunters , most of the demon hunters dont use Metamorphosis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually it doesn't make sense in lore. We exterminated hundreds of Demon Hunters during TBC, and Illidan is viewed as a traitor among his people, as well as throughout the Alliance and Horde. Also according to lore, there's only supposed to be a handful of Demon Hunters throughout the world, because it takes rigorous training, and Demon Hunters aren't willing to train people. Most of them are reclusive loners who only occupy demon infested areas. The idea that suddenly there would be thousands of Demon Hunters running around actually contradicts lore entirely.
    It doesnt because we didnt exterminate all , but only a big number of the Demon Hunters. No contradiction against lore. Demon Hunters still exist in different places like Felwood , Blasted Lands etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You seem to be oblivious to the fact that Paladins STILL have all of their abilities from WC3 on top of the new abilities that Blizzard gave them for WoW. That seems to indicate that those WC3 abilities are important.



    Player Demon Hunters should be more powerful than a regular DH, just like player Warlocks are more powerful than regular Warlocks. The player class is supposed to be the best of the best. Not just a regular grunt.

    Also all Warlocks being able to do Metamorphosis, while only a couple of DHs being able to do Metamorphosis sort of implies that Warlocks are more powerful than Demon Hunters.
    Blizzard can create new spells different from Warlocks' that can fit the Demon Hunter concept. There is enough design space.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caninese View Post
    The WC3 Demon Hunter only has 4 abilities.
    Illidan doesn't do much other than sneak around.
    NPCs aren't really great indicators, as their pool of abilities is rather small.'

    Bottom line, there's likely some tricks that Demon Hunters have that we haven't seen yet. Not every Demon Hunter can be the same, just like not every <insert class name here> can be the same. The WC3 hero argument is one that I see come up frequently, and it isn't exactly a good one. How many abilities do classes have in comparison to their respective WC3 counterparts? A LOT more. If Demon Hunters were to become a class, Blizzard would just come up with some new abilities for them.
    I agree with you. No Class is like Demon Hunters and there are similarities between Demon Hunters and Warlocks, like Paladins with Priests.

    THe developers can do what they did with Priests and Paladin. They can make the Demon Hunter class work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Why would Blizzard do that when they already created DH spells and given them all to Warlocks? Isn't that kind of stupid? Why design dozens of spells for a DH, give them all to Warlocks, and then design an entirely new set of spells for the concept you just got rid of?

    Again, your argument is both illogical and ridiculous.
    Blizzard created Warlock spells and gave them to Warlocks. The point is to create brand new spells for the Demon Hunter for the concept of the Demon Hunter. Dark Warrior Spells, Mage Tank Spells , Chaotic Charging Abilities , new Fire Abilities , new rotations etc. Demon Hunters are basically warriors ( another change from the Warlocks) so they need some Demonic Stances like Shadow Stance , Fel Stance , Chaotic Stance etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaide View Post
    The metamorphosis ability was only displayed in ONE game prior to WoW. There is plenty of room for change there. For example, I'm sure they could either:

    1) Give the metamorphosis form several different forms/aesthetic options for different playstyles (aoe, single target, tanking) or
    2) Change the warlock ability a bit to give it back to DH's

    Remember, this is what they did with Death Coil to make sure Death Knights could have it. They changed warlocks death coil to 'mortal coil'.

    I love that everyone always forgets Blizzard's company mission statement (http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about/mission.html)

    What's the big giant #1 up on the top? Gameplay first. They have stated, numerous times, that while lore is important, gameplay trumps it in every case. If people want to play DH, and the devs want to make DH, it doesn't matter what they have to do to make it work. It'll happen.
    I must agree with you!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arberian View Post
    So guys here im showing you some reasons why Warlocks and Demon Hunters doesnt Share the Same Theme
    First you must read the Demon Hunter concept from WoWiki :
    - First of all Demon Hunters are Shadowy Warriors. That indicates that this class uses Weapons to fight their Enemies. The Word "Shadowy" means that this class can also use Dark Magic. *Warlocks dont use Weapons to fight.*
    -Seconly These warriors ritually blind themselves so that they develop 'spectral sight' that enables them to see demons and undead with greater clarity. Something which warlocks dont have.
    -Demon hunters eschew heavy armor, valuing mobility and speed. They value mobility and speed so they can dodge or parry attacks in order to survive , but warlocks use mainly Dark Healing and Sacrifical Healing.
    -The Demon Hunters use mainly Fire and Arcane Spells. Warlocks mainly use Fire and Shadow spell , and that means that the Demon Hunter is an unique Warrior which can use Arcane Energy.
    -Demon hunters hone their speed and maneuverability to overcome their foes, which Warlocks dont. Warlocks use Dark Magic and Dark Shields , Sacrifical Pacts to overcome their foes.
    -Demon Hunters carry large curved Warblades. Warlocks arent capable of equiping Warblades.
    - The demon hunter can channel the chaos energy within them into a melee weapon to increase its powers. This is something unique which no class offers. No class can channel Chaos through weapons even the mighty Warlocks.
    -Demon hunters have the ability to cover their bodies in a shell of flame , which Warlocks dont. The Immolate Aura Version of the Warlocks burns enemies within 8 or 10 yards by burning the ground , but the Immolate Version of the Demon Hunter covers their bodies in shells of flames damaging nearby enemies(1-3 yard range maximum) .
    - Demonology Warlocks are the Masters of The Demons , but the Demon Hunters are the ones who destroy the Demons because this is the reason why they live. To Destroy The Legion.


    Many players say that the Demon Hunters wont happen because most of their "iconic" spells are given away to the Warlocks . Spells like Metamorphosis to Warlocks and Evasion to Rogues. It remains only the Immolate Version of the Demon Hunter which is unique and Mana Burn which is not in use to be able to Create the Class. About the Metamorphosis case isnt required by the Demon Hunters because most of the Demon Hunters cant use Metamorphosis , Demon Hunters like Varedis, Feronas Sindweller , Telarius Voidstriker , Leothoras the Blind etc. The Metamorphosis of the Illidan was a rare case. Giving The Demon Hunters demonic Stances which causes Fel Runes to appear over the Demon Hunter's body or Dark Transparent Runes which cover their body would be the best choice.

    Did u understand guys?!
    Read The Part : " Demonology Warlocks are the Masters of The Demons , but the Demon Hunters are the ones who destroy the Demons because this is the reason why they live. To Destroy The Legion. "
    Read Here for more info: Read Here : http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...3&postcount=11
    More to Read : http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...1&postcount=13
    Can a Warlock do this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB82pF_64mw ?!

    Read more if you dont believe that Warlocks have different spells from the Demon Hunters :
    Quote Originally Posted by Arberian View Post
    No , To Parry and dodge multiple attacks , and to use their physical power to survive ( not only Dark Powers ).

    Do The Warlocks use these spells ?!
    1- http://www.wowhead.com/spell=41142
    2- http://www.wowhead.com/spell=40585
    3- http://www.wowhead.com/spell=40832
    4- http://www.wowhead.com/spell=40647
    5- http://www.wowhead.com/spell=38010
    6-http://www.wowhead.com/spell=35871
    7- http://www.wowhead.com/spell=39135
    More proofs ?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Based on Blizzard's actions towards DHs and Warlocks, we can accurately guess Blizzard's agenda.
    No one can guess Blizzard's agenda. I didnt expect WoD Expansion .

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    In short, the only way Blizzard could introduce a DH class is the following;

    1. Ignore the overlap and shoehorn the class into the game.
    2. Create a completely new DH class that doesn't use the tradtional theme.
    3. Utilize the Diablo3 theme of Demon Hunters, and tack on the Illidan version.

    None of those three things are a remote possibility, because each one either causes a ridiculous amount of overlap, or it would anger the current WoW player base.

    If you actually sit back and think, you would realize how dumb your argument truly is.
    Teriz in the name of the facts Demon Hunters are not casters , but they are Demonic Warriors Taunt . So there is a possibility that Blizzard may create Demonic Stances that can give the Demon Hunters different Demon Forms .

    For more info read this :
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaide View Post
    Said it before, and I'll say it again:

    If it makes sense in the lore to allow DH to be a new class, it WILL happen, and frankly, it's more likely to happen than most other ideas (ie tinker). The EXACT same arguments were being made about death knights before they were released: "ALL death knights are evil without exception, it CAN'T happen", "half their abilities are already on other classes in one way or another"

    People need to realize, the abilities each class 'has' are based on WCIII, where a unit had 4 abilities max. FOUR. In WoW, EVERY class has many times that amount. Do you remember paladins in WCIII having avenging wrath? Me either, but it's an (if not THE) iconic paladin ability.

    Another interesting tidbit is that warlocks and death knights are SO CLOSELY related, that Gul'dan (arguably the MOST notable warlock, even standing in for the role in hearthstone) is listed as a DEATH KNIGHT in warcraft 2 (http://www.wowwiki.com/Warcraft_II_units), and don't whine about the source being wowwiki, his abilities in WCII were specifically those given to death knights.

    In order to differentiate DK's for Warlocks, Blizzard changed their entire Fu relating to death knights. Death Knights created by ner'zhul/arthas were more combat focused, whereas the death knights of old were more casting focused. Just take a look at their abilities: http://www.wowwiki.com/Warcraft_II_abilities.

    As a matter of fact, almost HALF their abilities are keystone abilities of other classes in Warcraft lore.
    -Unholy Armor is essentially synonymous with the warlock spells fel armor and plays like a dark version of a bubble.
    -Haste, yes DK's had the ability to magically buff their allies with haste. This is a targeted self/ally buff with a punishingly limited duration, so it is different than the passive self haste buff DK's enjoy in WoW.
    -Whirlwind, yep, the druid spell cyclone. To the letter, identical.

    Did Blizzard edit this fact out with the changes in WCIII? No. They explained it away saying that DK's were varied in style and the 'newer generation' favored direct combat and disease over spells. This is evident when you realize that the ghost of an old Death Knight haunts SMV and has the iconic WCII abilities (http://www.wowhead.com/npc=21797#abilities)

    What's the point I'm making? If Blizzard thinks DH is a good choice for the lore setting, it wouldn't be difficult in the least to explain that while they harness similar magics to that of the warlock, they feel in essence, more like a rogue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dellius View Post
    Problem is that practically all DH abilities have already been implemented into other classes, namely Warlocks, Rogues and Hunters. There is literally nothing left for the Demon Hunter class that will make it unique and not massively overlap with those classes.
    If you see the DH NPC's they got some abilities which are not used by Warlocks/Rogues !!
    Last edited by Arberian; 2014-02-10 at 06:12 PM.
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    Demon Hunter Class Idea
    "Where is the difference between Flash Heal and Flash of Light ?!Where is the difference between Conflagrate and Fire Blast ?!"

  6. #46
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arberian View Post
    It is relevant .. If Blizzard can create new Spells from the Paladin Concept like Avenging Wrath , than it can create new abilities from the Demon Hunter concept ( abilities which are not in WC3) .
    You seem to be oblivious to the fact that Paladins STILL have all of their abilities from WC3 on top of the new abilities that Blizzard gave them for WoW. That seems to indicate that those WC3 abilities are important.

    The Metamorphosis ability is taken by Warlocks , but not all Demon Hunters were capable of using this Ability.
    Player Demon Hunters should be more powerful than a regular DH, just like player Warlocks are more powerful than regular Warlocks. The player class is supposed to be the best of the best. Not just a regular grunt.

    Also all Warlocks being able to do Metamorphosis, while only a couple of DHs being able to do Metamorphosis sort of implies that Warlocks are more powerful than Demon Hunters.

  7. #47
    The Patient Arberian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You seem to be oblivious to the fact that Paladins STILL have all of their abilities from WC3 on top of the new abilities that Blizzard gave them for WoW. That seems to indicate that those WC3 abilities are important.



    Player Demon Hunters should be more powerful than a regular DH, just like player Warlocks are more powerful than regular Warlocks. The player class is supposed to be the best of the best. Not just a regular grunt.

    Also all Warlocks being able to do Metamorphosis, while only a couple of DHs being able to do Metamorphosis sort of implies that Warlocks are more powerful than Demon Hunters.
    Blizzard can create new spells different from Warlocks' that can fit the Demon Hunter concept. There is enough design space.
    My youtube Channel : Arberian021
    WoW isn't all about new concepts or themes, it's about classic archetypes that fit the Holy Trinity gameplay style of Warcraft.
    Demon Hunter Class Idea
    "Where is the difference between Flash Heal and Flash of Light ?!Where is the difference between Conflagrate and Fire Blast ?!"

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...11292543741952

    - - - Updated - - -



    Its not just the glaives. Its the ridiculous amount of overlap. Especially with Warlocks.

    The only difference between a Warlock and Demon Hunter is the glaives. That isn't enough to justify an entirely new class. It would make more sense to give Warlocks a melee spec and call it Demon Hunter.
    Or allow locks using dark apotheosis to dual wield and slap their class on the warglaives.
    Last edited by delus; 2014-02-07 at 01:14 PM.

  9. #49
    I laught at people that derive their lore from Hearthstone, which in itself is based on the game "World of Warcraft" and we all know how the game "world of Warcraft" bends the lore.

  10. #50
    Brewmaster Rhaide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormtrooperz View Post
    How about the main fact that the biggest thing that makes a Demon Hunter stand out in any wiki/source, is their ability to Metamorph? And that it's already the key ability to an existing class spec.

    It's not like it's a minor/average ability that's being reworked, it's THE ability for demo locks. It's like If I went in to your favorite class, let's say, is a feral druid, and I said, "yknow, we are making a new class, that would benefit more from looking like a cat. So we are giving you the middle finger, taking a core mechanic of this EXISTING class, don't worry we will give you SOMETHING...I guess and giving it to the other class because some fanboys want to run around named Illidanx and circle jerk each other's glaives."

    A death knight had much more room for reworking, they didn't have a core ability like meta that was given to a class years prior. It's what MAKES a DH, not the glaives, not the blindfolds, the meta. In fact, did you know the whole "ripping your eyes out to see through fel energies," is a VERY rare case among demon hunters? Even Illidan is unique for it, being his was done be frickin Sargeras himself.
    The metamorphosis ability was only displayed in ONE game prior to WoW. There is plenty of room for change there. For example, I'm sure they could either:

    1) Give the metamorphosis form several different forms/aesthetic options for different playstyles (aoe, single target, tanking) or
    2) Change the warlock ability a bit to give it back to DH's

    Remember, this is what they did with Death Coil to make sure Death Knights could have it. They changed warlocks death coil to 'mortal coil'.

    I love that everyone always forgets Blizzard's company mission statement (http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about/mission.html)

    What's the big giant #1 up on the top? Gameplay first. They have stated, numerous times, that while lore is important, gameplay trumps it in every case. If people want to play DH, and the devs want to make DH, it doesn't matter what they have to do to make it work. It'll happen.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fmr View Post
    I laught at people that derive their lore from Hearthstone, which in itself is based on the game "World of Warcraft" and we all know how the game "world of Warcraft" bends the lore.
    I'm sorry to break this to you Fmr... I don't know quite how to tell you... WoW *IS* the lore. Stories grow and evolve. And in a setting where the universe has to expand SO much to grow and appeal to the masses, changes have to be made. Even Tolkien had tons of inconsistencies in his works and notes.

    Also, since I'm the only one who mentioned Hearthstone here (aside from the guy pointing out that illidan was listed as a hunter), I'm assuming you're speaking to me or him. Yeah, the only reason I cited it at all is because they used the most recognizable character for each class role, I think it's pretty reasonable to make a point that Gul'dan is the most recognizable warlock based on that; likewise, the comment pointing out that Illidan was listed as a Hunter wasn't trying to make some grand point and isn't deserving of ridicule. But by all means if you wanna be argumentative with no real facts behind you or reason for even being here, go right on ahead. Haters gonna hate.
    "When you do things right, people won't be sure you have done anything at all."

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  11. #51
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arberian View Post
    Blizzard can create new spells different from Warlocks' that can fit the Demon Hunter concept. There is enough design space.
    Why would Blizzard do that when they already created DH spells and given them all to Warlocks? Isn't that kind of stupid? Why design dozens of spells for a DH, give them all to Warlocks, and then design an entirely new set of spells for the concept you just got rid of?

    Again, your argument is both illogical and ridiculous.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaide View Post
    The metamorphosis ability was only displayed in ONE game prior to WoW. There is plenty of room for change there. For example, I'm sure they could either:

    1) Give the metamorphosis form several different forms/aesthetic options for different playstyles (aoe, single target, tanking) or
    2) Change the warlock ability a bit to give it back to DH's

    Remember, this is what they did with Death Coil to make sure Death Knights could have it. They changed warlocks death coil to 'mortal coil'.
    No they didn't. Death Coil Warlock wasn't the same spell as Death Coil DK. The only thing Blizzard needed to do was change the name. Metamorphosis IS the Demon Hunter ability from WC3 in WoW form. The two situations you're describing are NOTHING alike.

  12. #52
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arberian View Post
    THe developers can do what they did with Priests and Paladin. They can make the Demon Hunter class work.
    They absolutely could, the problem is that it's not very likely because Pal/Priest were designed with the original game, where they had lots of breathing room to implement anything and everything.

    On the tighter budget of xpacs (time, resources), they need to make stronger decisions about what goes in. They're going to aim for something that a) feels distinct and exciting to the players, and b) doesn't infringe heavily on another class.

    The devs are increasingly-loathe to take things away from players that feel iconic. At this point, designing a Demon Hunter that's compatible with Demonology Warlock — without stripping bits or watering down either option — would be a challenging proposition.

    IMO, the devs would be much, much more likely to just give Warlocks a fourth spec — Demon Hunter — amp up Dark Apo and implement melee options. Tie it into the Legion story, open the class to Night Elves, etc. etc. This is much more efficient use of design space than an entire new class that is different from, but overlaps significantly with, another class.

    My personal argument is not that Demon Hunter can't still be done in WoW; creativity can easily bridge the design gap Lock creates. My argument is that implementing something like Demon Hunter is extremely unlikely at this stage of the game's lifespan, when taking a cost/benefit look at how they can spend their time implementing something as costly (both short and long term) as a new class.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaide View Post
    If it makes sense in the lore to allow DH to be a new class, it WILL happen

    No. It won't. If it made sense in game? Yes. But it doesn't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post
    You don't even know much about demon hunter lore if you think Illidan is the only demon hunter with spectral sight.
    Warlock had Sense Demons as well for a while. Baseline spell.

    There was originally a ritual spoken of in the WC3 manual that all demon hunters endure.
    Yes, they put on a blindfold. Sindweller lends you one for his questline.

    I'm not certain "endure" is the right term though. Well...maybe is the riitual is unusually long and boring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arberian View Post
    so the type of Metamorphosis the Demon Hunters use must be changed by Blizzard
    No. DHs wouldn't be getting Meta. At all.

    Warriors complained when Mortal Strike was handed out. But there were gameplay reasons for it.
    Shamans complained when Heroism/Bloodlust got handed. But there were gameplay reasons for it.
    Warlocks will complain if Metamorphosis were to be handed out. And there'd be no gameplay reason for it. It won't happen.

    I see the Demon Hunters more like Battle Mages than Melee Warlocks.
    Battlemages being seen as a Meleeing Mage. But DHs can't be a meleeing Warlock.

    The changes between Warlocks and Demon Hunters are like the changes of the Priests and the Paladins.
    Differences. I think you meant "differences" instead of changes.

    Thing is...its easy to see differences between Paladins and priests. They have their own design space, with barely any overlap whatsoever. This is a popular strawman argument but its also one that is utterly false.

    Now...we can compare the DH and Warlock class. And we see nothing except overlap. Overlap in lore, looks, class theme and concepts, abilities, motivations, and so on. Overlap, overlap, overlap. The only aspect where there is room for devlopment is gameplay - because DHs are a melee tank and so require a different playstyle and abilities.

    But that isn't enough for a new standalone class. And if you want to convicne Blizzard that there is no overlap - and yes, Blizzard do see the problem there - then you need to do better than point out two classes that each have their own unique design space.

    Were DHs to be developed from scratch, then a new design space could be developed for them. Just as paladins and Priests had their own unique design spaces developed.

    But Blizzard can't do that. Not now. If Blizzard retconned DHs, they'd be designing a new class anyway and the name alone carries baggage Blizzard won't want in a new design.

    The only difference between Priests and Paladins is that the Paladins are Priests that wear Heavy Armor and use the Power of the Light on their Weapons. Blizzard could just give the Priests 3 other Specs and heavy armor instead of creating the Paladin Class.
    That you can write this shows that you don't actually understand game and class development.

    Warlocks can't channel Chaos thorugh weapons.
    Neither can Demon Hunters.

    Furthermore they dont use weapons to destory enemies while inbattle.
    And yes, they do.

    And Furthermore you got no proof that Warlocks use mainly Arcane Energy as Demon Hunters do
    Thats because both use Shadow and Fire. Not arcane.

    Furthermore Metamorphosis isnt used by all Demon Hunters , most of the demon hunters dont use Metamorphosis.
    But it is what is expected from the class by players. And a standalone DH cannot have it.

    Blizzard can create new spells different from Warlocks' that can fit the Demon Hunter concept. There is enough design space.
    In the gameplay aspect. The problems lie elsewhere. Gameplay is easy.

    THe developers can do what they did with Priests and Paladin.
    Yes...they can give DHs a totally different design space from Warlocks. The trouble here is that what you'd get wouldn't be a Demon Hunter.

    They can make the Demon Hunter class work.[/QUOTE]

    And what they can't do is change the design space that alraedy exists and has been implemented. Not without a retcon.

    That design space has a very large degree of overlap with existing classes. Primarily Warlocks. So....no.

    Blizzard loses here no matter what they do. A DH class offers no benefit. It can only do what existing classes already do. And by providing a "cooler" competitor for those classes, the class will harm existing classes merely by existing. If they redesign it, the class you end up with won't be the DH players want.

    So - how can you bring into a game a class whose design space is already present, and whose moves and looks are a large part of what make him desirable to add? You tack him onto the class with the largest degree of overlap in the design space. In that way, the single issue critical enough to kill the class becomes an asset. You take advantage of the lore, the abilities, the design, the story, the looks that are already there. You get rid of all the problems and relish in what are only advantages to do doing so.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2014-02-07 at 03:42 PM.

  14. #54
    Brewmaster Rhaide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Why would Blizzard do that when they already created DH spells and given them all to Warlocks? Isn't that kind of stupid? Why design dozens of spells for a DH, give them all to Warlocks, and then design an entirely new set of spells for the concept you just got rid of?

    Again, your argument is both illogical and ridiculous.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No they didn't. Death Coil Warlock wasn't the same spell as Death Coil DK. The only thing Blizzard needed to do was change the name. Metamorphosis IS the Demon Hunter ability from WC3 in WoW form. The two situations you're describing are NOTHING alike.
    Nope, you're blatantly and horridly incorrect. Go look up the difference between the WoW and WCIII version of metamorphosis.

    WCIII
    Changes melee attack in ranged SPLASH attack
    Grants HP and regen
    On a long cooldown

    WoW
    Grants new abilities
    Powers up spells
    No cooldown, based on a fluctuating resource

    You literally just claimed that warlock death coil was different because all that was the same was the name and graphic, then claimed that this didn't apply to metamorphosis when it very clearly does.

    Your argument is bad, it's not even a difference of opinion, you're simply wrong.
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  15. #55
    The Patient Arberian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Why would Blizzard do that when they already created DH spells and given them all to Warlocks? Isn't that kind of stupid? Why design dozens of spells for a DH, give them all to Warlocks, and then design an entirely new set of spells for the concept you just got rid of?

    Again, your argument is both illogical and ridiculous.
    Blizzard created Warlock spells and gave them to Warlocks. The point is to create brand new spells for the Demon Hunter for the concept of the Demon Hunter. Dark Warrior Spells, Mage Tank Spells , Chaotic Charging Abilities , new Fire Abilities , new rotations etc. Demon Hunters are basically warriors ( another change from the Warlocks) so they need some Demonic Stances like Shadow Stance , Fel Stance , Chaotic Stance etc.
    My youtube Channel : Arberian021
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  16. #56
    Brewmaster Rhaide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post

    Yes, they put on a blindfold. Sindweller lends you one for his questline.

    I'm not certain "endure" is the right term though. Well...maybe is the riitual is unusually long and boring.
    EJL
    I'm sure I'll have more to disagree with you when I'm finished reading your post... But this bit struck me immediately as it makes it obvious you don't really know what you're talking about. Have a look:



    Text is a bit small, my webcam sucks, here's what the block of text says (from the WoW BC collectors edition artbook)

    "Demon Hunters carve out their eyes so that they are not distracted by visions of the real world, allowing them to see demon energy".

    It doesn't say, SOME, it doesn't say Illidan. It says Demon Hunters. It's not up for debate.

    EDIT: Upon further review of your full comment, I deem you to have very little knowledge of Demon Hunter lore (and probably most other lore). I have no problem with people not delving in too deeply into content, but when you come onto a forum and disagree with someone, you better at least have a good reason, or you're just a jerk. DH's use arcane, not shadow, and much of their history comes from MAGES, not warlocks. Illidan is again, an easy example, go look up what he did before he became a demon hunter, I'll give you a hint. Mage. Furthermore, it is stated specifically that they DO channel chaotic energy into their weapons.

    Seriously, this stuff doesn't even take long to go look up. I suggest trying it.
    Last edited by Rhaide; 2014-02-07 at 05:28 PM.
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  17. #57
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaide View Post
    Nope, you're blatantly and horridly incorrect. Go look up the difference between the WoW and WCIII version of metamorphosis.

    WCIII
    Changes melee attack in ranged SPLASH attack
    Grants HP and regen
    On a long cooldown

    WoW
    Grants new abilities
    Powers up spells
    No cooldown, based on a fluctuating resource

    Changing melee into a ranged splash attack would count as granting new abilities and powering up spells.

    And Metamorphosis was originally on a cooldown. The ability was expanded upon in MoP. That change doesn't help your weak argument.

    You literally just claimed that warlock death coil was different because all that was the same was the name and graphic, then claimed that this didn't apply to metamorphosis when it very clearly does.

    Your argument is bad, it's not even a difference of opinion, you're simply wrong.
    Except Warlock Death Coil was a fear that healed the Warlock. DK Death Coil heals undead minions and damages living targets. It was never the same ability, it just shared a name.

    Warlock Metamorphosis amplifies your abilities and transforms you into a demon. Demon Hunter Metamorphosis amplifies your abilities and transforms you into a demon. That's the same ability.

    Care to try again?

  18. #58
    Brewmaster Rhaide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Changing melee into a ranged splash attack would count as granting new abilities and powering up spells.

    And Metamorphosis was originally on a cooldown. The ability was expanded upon in MoP. That change doesn't help your weak argument.



    Except Warlock Death Coil was a fear that healed the Warlock. DK Death Coil heals undead minions and damages living targets. It was never the same ability, it just shared a name.

    Warlock Metamorphosis amplifies your abilities and transforms you into a demon. Demon Hunter Metamorphosis amplifies your abilities and transforms you into a demon. That's the same ability.

    Care to try again?
    So your argument is that giving you a ranged attack and increasing your health is a new ability and not simply an extension of the metamorphosis itself? Impressive mental gymnastics there to make a failure of a point since DH's in WCIII were given no new abilities when they used it. Meta in WCIII was basically a buff, in WoW it's a class MECHANIC. One makes you more powerful while not really changing how you play the game, the other changes your entire playstyle, including SEVERAL brand new abilities like charge and taunt while active. They aren't the same.

    Warlock death coil wasn't the same as DK death coil. Warlock Meta isn't the same as DH meta. Sorry, I have facts, you have... I don't know, I guess some very malleable opinions that stretch to try and make a point.
    Last edited by Rhaide; 2014-02-07 at 05:32 PM.
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  19. #59
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaide View Post
    But this bit struck me immediately as it makes it obvious you don't really know what you're talking about. Have a look:
    Contradicted in game. Its even contrdicted in other sources from the time which show DHs without blindfolds.

    Guess which I'm going with?

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2014-02-07 at 10:14 PM.

  20. #60
    The Patient Arberian's Avatar
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    Demonology Warlocks are the Masters of The Demons , but the Demon Hunters are the ones who destroy the Demons because this is the reason why they live. To Destroy The Legion.
    Can a warlock do this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB82pF_64mw ?!
    Last edited by Arberian; 2014-02-07 at 05:51 PM.
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