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  1. #161
    Herald of the Titans Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    That is all possibility, but I will maintain that 'turning into a demon' can still be different as long as it is a different type, or explained as a different method of accessing that ability. It's difficult to wrap your head around the concept because it does not yet exist, but consider the unique mechanic of Turning into Beasts as an iconic Druid theme, then taking Ghost Wolf into consideration. It doesn't matter if it is non-combat or not, it is a theme that is shared with Druids. If I suggested a non-combat Demon Form ability for Demon Hunters, you would still argue that it's too similar to Warlocks, am I wrong?
    Shamans don't literally turn into animals in the sense their body transforms, though. It's more of a spiritual experience, like when you hallucinate into a spirit-hawk in the Tauren starting area to travel to Bloodhoof. And why Enhance turns transparent/ghostly when it activates Spirit Walk. But projecting a spectral wolf as your astral form and/or calling upon a Wolf Spirit to empower you is cooler than just being a translucent bipedal cow.

    That's what I mean — you can create superficially-similar Demon Forms that aren't actually Demon Forms, but either you're gutting something about Demon Hunters (and disappointing people) or gutting Demonology (and disappointing people). It can be done effectively, I just see it as unlikely given how Blizzard designs and especially how conservative they're becoming with 'disturbing' people as WoW ages.

    If you look at DK for example, they kept everything core and identifiable about it (from WC3 forward, I mean) and just expanded. But DH has had all of its pieces dissected and redistributed, so while you can make a very cool class in Demon Hunter's image, you can't really make the Demon Hunter people are fond/nostalgic about.

    Monks had the advantage of being mostly uncharted territory, and (amazingly) having none of their concepts distributed to other classes in the ~8 years before they were introduced.

  2. #162
    Bloodsail Admiral DonQShot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Shamans don't literally turn into animals in the sense their body transforms, though. It's more of a spiritual experience, like when you hallucinate into a spirit-hawk in the Tauren starting area to travel to Bloodhoof. And why Enhance turns transparent/ghostly when it activates Spirit Walk. But projecting a spectral wolf as your astral form and/or calling upon a Wolf Spirit to empower you is cooler than just being a translucent bipedal cow.

    That's what I mean — you can create superficially-similar Demon Forms that aren't actually Demon Forms, but either you're gutting something about Demon Hunters (and disappointing people) or gutting Demonology (and disappointing people). It can be done effectively, I just see it as unlikely given how Blizzard designs and especially how conservative they're becoming with 'disturbing' people as WoW ages.

    If you look at DK for example, they kept everything core and identifiable about it (from WC3 forward, I mean) and just expanded. But DH has had all of its pieces dissected and redistributed, so while you can make a very cool class in Demon Hunter's image, you can't really make the Demon Hunter people are fond/nostalgic about.

    Monks had the advantage of being mostly uncharted territory, and (amazingly) having none of their concepts distributed to other classes in the ~8 years before they were introduced.
    It doesn't matter! Demon Hunters' metamorph is also a different process than warlocks'. You are all basically out of arguments and just picking hairs I think.

  3. #163
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonQShot View Post
    It doesn't matter! Demon Hunters' metamorph is also a different process than warlocks'. You are all basically out of arguments and just picking hairs I think.
    Says the person who stated that Lock Meta is different than DH Meta because "the process is different".

    How would that influence gameplay exactly? Wouldn't the result of that "different process" just be the same thing as what we're doing with Locks right now?
    Last edited by Teriz; 2014-02-09 at 07:36 PM.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Says the person who stated that Lock Meta is different than DH Meta because "the process is different".

    How would that influence gameplay exactly? Wouldn't the result of that "different process" just be the same thing as what we're doing with Locks right now?
    remove any class that is not warrior, hunter, rogue, or mage. too much over lap. there should only be 4 playable class to prevent overlap.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Zanjin/simple horde main
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  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonQShot View Post
    It doesn't matter! Demon Hunters' metamorph is also a different process than warlocks'. You are all basically out of arguments and just picking hairs I think.
    How is the process different when the ability behaves almost identically between the WC3 Hero unit and the Warlock spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    remove any class that is not warrior, hunter, rogue, or mage. too much over lap. there should only be 4 playable class to prevent overlap.
    The issue is that picking random trivial similarities is not the same thing as having to resolve a class' single most iconic ability already being in the domain of another class for 5+ years.

    Death Coil for DKs, by contrast, was only in-game by name — Locks didn't use it remotely the same as the WC3 unit, and DC was significantly less iconic than things like Army of the Dead or diseases/plague, which were never parceled out to other classes.
    Last edited by Lovestar; 2014-02-09 at 07:51 PM.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    How is the process different when the ability behaves almost identically between the WC3 Hero unit and the Warlock spec?
    doesnt work the same.
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  7. #167
    Herald of the Titans Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    doesnt work the same.
    It makes you significantly tougher, amps up your ranged damage ability, and you activate it as a cooldown when you want to make stuff die. You become a shadowy demon-thing.

    How does it not work the same?

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    doesnt work the same.
    It doesn't matter if the lore behind it is slightly different. They're both spells that let you temporarily turn into a demon form and become stronger and deal more damage for a bit.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    doesnt work the same.
    It doesn't really matter whether it works the same or looks the same

    Warriors complained about Mortal Strike going to other classes. But there was a gameplay need.
    Shamans complained about Bloodlust going to other classs. But there was a gameplay need.

    Iconic spells and even they ended up with different lore and looks, players complained. But Blizzard had gameplay reasons to justify the move.

    The simple truth is that unless DHs are brought in as a Warlock, they won't have Meta. Blizzard won't give another classes iconic move to another class unless it has a good gameplay reason to do so.

    Why do yo think Warlocks will be happy at losing their iconic move? Even if it ends up with different lore and looks, it is still turning the caster into a demon. What gameplay element does Blizzard have to justify that?

    What does that mean? You have a Demon Hunter who doesn't have Meta. That's very workable, yes....but it'd still have lost something a lot of players would want. If they they get is a chance to play a lightly armored DW melee class who uses magic....a concept which also embodies the Rogue and Monk...is there a point?

    EJL

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    It doesn't really matter whether it works the same or looks the same

    Warriors complained about Mortal Strike going to other classes. But there was a gameplay need.
    Shamans complained about Bloodlust going to other classs. But there was a gameplay need.

    Iconic spells and even they ended up with different lore and looks, players complained. But Blizzard had gameplay reasons to justify the move.

    The simple truth is that unless DHs are brought in as a Warlock, they won't have Meta. Blizzard won't give another classes iconic move to another class unless it has a good gameplay reason to do so.

    Why do yo think Warlocks will be happy at losing their iconic move? Even if it ends up with different lore and looks, it is still turning the caster into a demon. What gameplay element does Blizzard have to justify that?

    What does that mean? You have a Demon Hunter who doesn't have Meta. That's very workable, yes....but it'd still have lost something a lot of players would want. If they they get is a chance to play a lightly armored DW melee class who uses magic....a concept which also embodies the Rogue and Monk...is there a point?

    EJL
    rogues dont use magic.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Zanjin/simple horde main
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  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    rogues dont use magic.
    Have a look at their ability list.

    Killing Spree and Shadow Step has you stepping through the shadows.
    Shadowstep is a teleport
    Shadow Reflection is an ability that creates a Shadow clone.
    Shadow Blades has you infuse your blades with Shadows.
    Shroud of Concealment has you wrap your allies in Shadows hiding them from sight

    These aren't mundane, non-magical abilities. Rogues might not be known for magic, or associated with it, but they do appear to use it.

    Regardless, whether or not we can say you are correct, the concept is there. Call it what you will, but Rogues using magic (or mystical abilities or whatever you call it) is there in game.

    EJL

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Have a look at their ability list.

    Killing Spree and Shadow Step has you stepping through the shadows.
    Shadowstep is a teleport
    Shadow Reflection is an ability that creates a Shadow clone.
    Shadow Blades has you infuse your blades with Shadows.
    Shroud of Concealment has you wrap your allies in Shadows hiding them from sight

    These aren't mundane, non-magical abilities. Rogues might not be known for magic, or associated with it, but they do appear to use it.

    Regardless, whether or not we can say you are correct, the concept is there. Call it what you will, but Rogues using magic (or mystical abilities or whatever you call it) is there in game.

    EJL
    potions explain everything.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Zanjin/simple horde main
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    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2#post25856782
    Coming soon Expansion ideas: Age of N'zoth, Assault on Agrus, and Age of Extinction(aka the true end time)

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    potions explain everything.
    Potions. A Rogue is able to walk through the shadows and teleport and infuse his blades with magical energy and cloak an area of 20 feet and possibly create a clone because he can use potions.

    Was that a serious answer?

    Regardless....gameplay wise, he's using magic.

    EJL

  14. #174
    This is unrelated to a DH class. Rogues fight using stealth and shadows. Stealth and shadows is not a necessary part of DH identity.

  15. #175
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    This is unrelated to a DH class. Rogues fight using stealth and shadows. Stealth and shadows is not a necessary part of DH identity.
    DHs and Rogues both have Evasion.

    Illidan could stealth, and he had an ability called Shadowcloak, which functions just like cloak of shadows.

    In Heroes of the Storm, Illidan possesses an ability that allows him to do an attack, and then instantly teleport behind an opponent. That functions just like the Rogue ability Cloak and Dagger.

    Illidan also has an ability called Mark of Azzinoth, which functions almost identically to the Rogue ability Vendetta.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    DHs and Rogues both have Evasion.

    Illidan could stealth, and he had an ability called Shadowcloak, which functions just like cloak of shadows.

    In Heroes of the Storm, Illidan possesses an ability that allows him to do an attack, and then instantly teleport behind an opponent. That functions just like the Rogue ability Cloak and Dagger.

    Illidan also has an ability called Mark of Azzinoth, which functions almost identically to the Rogue ability Vendetta.
    Stop trying, people will argue for and against it despite any arguement either side provides that refutes whatever is said. On the one hand, they're a fairly popular demand. Right, okay. On the other, they're almost entirely spread across the existing classes.

    Now, to the people who insist on saying "OMFG DEMON HUNTERS NOW!!1!1!1!". When Death Knights were announced, how many people do you think went "Oh, I hope they're like the RTS" rather than "Oh I hope they're Teron Gorefiend in Black Temple". In-game Death Knights are more akin to In-game Teron Gorefiend than the RTS Death Knights. Now, ask yourselves this; Considering that almost everything a Demon Hunter is, is currently spread between two classes (Combat Rogue (mostly)/Demonology Warlock), what do you propose to add to the Demon Hunter design that would make them stand out? Because as it is, all you will be is a Demonology Warlock who went one step further and undertook combat training as well.

    That's similar to the Human/Knight of the Silver Hand Paladin story, in the sense that they were Priests and Warriors who were taught how to fight and wield the light, except they go further than that and fully embrace the light. A Demon Hunter doesn't fully embrace the demon within, you'd lose control (Like Leotheras the Blind). So what alternative to do you propose to make the Demon Hunter design different? Because as it stands, all throughout this thread it's just been "BUT DEMON HUNTER". I'm not saying they shouldn't be implemented, but I can certainly see why they shouldn't be implemented, and understand why there really isn't a place for them.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    This is unrelated to a DH class. Rogues fight using stealth and shadows. Stealth and shadows is not a necessary part of DH identity.
    No. It's not.

    The point was that without the Demonic identity of a DH, you end up with what is a rogue or monk. A lightly armored, DW class that mixes melee and magic. Yes, there is the rest of the design space to be concerned about, but this is just highlighting the issues involved.

    Keep the demonic theme and you overlap with the warlock class.
    Ditch it, and you largely recreate the rogue/monk instead.

    EJL

  18. #178
    Herald of the Titans Lovestar's Avatar
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    Blizzard could easily do it, in the same way they made room for Warlock (the dark shadowy evil class) and Death Knight (the dark shadowy evil class, with swords and armor).

    Lock had Shadow/Demons/Fire, DK got Undeath (Shadow) / Blood / Ice. Plenty of design space difference despite vaguely similar overtones (fighting 'fire' with 'fire', becoming the void you look into, blah blah). We could give DH say, Demon Powers / Shadow Powers / Arcane Powers and focus one spec on Tanking, one spec on Physical DPS, one spec on Magical DPS.

    The question is — why? Does this really sound that interesting at this point in the game? What are we gaining from this?

    What I'm trying to stress is that a) it's questionable use of design space since Fel vs. Necromancy was different than Fel vs. Fel, and b) the end result would either be totally banal, or not be the Demon Hunter everyone's trying to imagine here.

    So you have to ask yourself really seriously what it is about Demon Hunters that makes you want them playable, and then be honest about how many of those elements can actually still fit into a new class and feel cool/fresh after 10-12 years of WoW.

  19. #179
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Blizzard could easily do it, in the same way they made room for Warlock (the dark shadowy evil class) and Death Knight (the dark shadowy evil class, with swords and armor).

    Lock had Shadow/Demons/Fire, DK got Undeath (Shadow) / Blood / Ice. Plenty of design space difference despite vaguely similar overtones (fighting 'fire' with 'fire', becoming the void you look into, blah blah). We could give DH say, Demon Powers / Shadow Powers / Arcane Powers and focus one spec on Tanking, one spec on Physical DPS, one spec on Magical DPS.

    The question is — why? Does this really sound that interesting at this point in the game? What are we gaining from this?

    What I'm trying to stress is that a) it's questionable use of design space since Fel vs. Necromancy was different than Fel vs. Fel, and b) the end result would either be totally banal, or not be the Demon Hunter everyone's trying to imagine here.

    So you have to ask yourself really seriously what it is about Demon Hunters that makes you want them playable, and then be honest about how many of those elements can actually still fit into a new class and feel cool/fresh after 10-12 years of WoW.
    The reason is they think that the Demon Hunter is cool. That's it, and that's all.

    There's nothing wrong with wanting to look cool, but a cool looking class that adds nothing to the game isn't helpful.

    Let's compare the Demon Hunter class concept to the far more likely Technology/Mechanical class concept.

    Technology is largely unexplored in the class lineup. Blizzard would be able to create a variety of concepts that wouldn't overlap with existing classes. They could pull from the Tinker and Alchemist hero units from WC3, just like they did with Monks and Death Knights. They could pull inspiration from NPCs like Seigecrafter Blackfuse, GG Engineering Bosses, various mechanical NPCs, bosses from Uldaar, Titan Tech, Dwarven tech, etc. to create a unique and interesting class that will look and feel different than any other class in WoW. Additionally, a tech class can heal, or tank, or perform DPS without diluting its flavor or lore.

    Finally, such a class could give Goblins and Gnomes some much needed love.

    Just look at their racial crests:





    Compare that to the Demon Hunter concept.

    The only good reason I've heard for the DH concept's implementation is because "I want to play as one." Or, "DH fans want to DPS instead of tank." Nevermind the fact that it would be yet another melee DPS class. Nevermind that it would step all over the design space of Warlocks and Rogues. Nevermind it wouldn't make much sense in terms of lore.

    If someone can come up with a good reason to implement the DH class I'd love to hear it.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If someone can come up with a good reason to implement the DH class I'd love to hear it.
    Because its cool, popular and wanted.

    And if someone can think of someway to allow it to have its own identity then I'd be all for a class. Actually, a class would still be the best way to bring it in, best way to allow it to explore its own lore.

    The trouble is - it can't have its own identity. Too much of what makes it special has been given away and used to benefit other classes. The window when it could have been a class and give an opportunity to develop - launch of Vanilla - has come and gone. If you bring it in with the design space and identity it has....your copying existing classes. If you don't bring it in with the design space and identity it has...you aren't bringing in a Demon Hunter.

    Neither option is good. In fact...both are bad and Blizzard is highly unlikely to follow either route; it won't annoy rogues or Warlocks and it won't annoy those who want a DH. The only way to allow a DH to keep its existing identity is to take advantage of that existing overlap and tack the DH onto an existing class....ie Warlocks.

    I'd like a DH class myself. Seriously. But given the limitations involved, I don't see it happening. Blizzard has expressed concerns over the design space and I know enough about game design to see their points. If they can only support X classes, then you want each class to be unique, to have its own design space, to bring something new. DHs don't do that.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2014-02-10 at 02:08 AM.

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