Warlocks are those who make use of demons and demonic energies to empower themselves and fight their enemies - amongst whom are demonsSo guys here im showing you some reasons why Warlocks and Demon Hunters doesnt Share the Same Theme
Demon Hunters are those who make use of demons and demonic energies to empower themselves and fight their enemies - amoingts whom are demons.
Truly - major differences
Well...disagree. First of all, I must realise that WoWiki is a non canon source. Secondly, I must realise that WoWiki mostly takes info from the RPG - which is non-canon.First you must read the Demon Hunter concept from WoWiki :
So I guess all those weapon rolls Warlocks get to do are needless? Warlocks do use weapons.- First of all Demon Hunters are Shadowy Warriors. That indicates that this class uses Weapons to fight their Enemies. The Word "Shadowy" means that this class can also use Dark Magic. *Warlocks dont use Weapons to fight.*
Sense Demons is hardly a key skill. Epsecially when it mainly manifests it self as "Oh look...thats a demon on my screen". This also doesn't apply to the theme of the class; simply its toolkit. At least you aren't trying to push the non-canon lore that DHs actually blind themselves.-Seconly These warriors ritually blind themselves so that they develop 'spectral sight' that enables them to see demons and undead with greater clarity. Something which warlocks dont have.
Last I checked, Warlocks also eschew heavy armor.-Demon hunters eschew heavy armor, valuing mobility and speed.
And again, you are not talking about the theme, but about the toolkit necessary for the role. Put it another way...you are complaining that an Enhancement shaman has a different toolkit from an Elemental Shaman and then saying that shows Enhancement can't be about Elements.They value mobility and speed so they can dodge or parry attacks in order to survive , but warlocks use mainly Dark Healing and Sacrifical Healing.
There are Demon Hunters in game which use Banish, Shadowfury, Shadownbolt, Curses and so on. Thats a lot of Shadow based magic for a class that doesn't use that school. Conversely, the arcane magic they use is.....is....well, bluntly speaking its non-existent.-The Demon Hunters use mainly Fire and Arcane Spells. Warlocks mainly use Fire and Shadow spell , and that means that the Demon Hunter is an unique Warrior which can use Arcane Energy.
[-Demon hunters hone their speed and maneuverability to overcome their foes, which Warlocks dont. Warlocks use Dark Magic and Dark Shields , Sacrifical Pacts to overcome their foes.
Demon Hunters have a toolkit optimised for melee combat. Warlocks, being casters, have a toolkit optimised for ranged casting.
This is both expected and not an issue of class theme. Again, I will point you to the existing examples - Balance and Feral/Guardian Druids. Enhancement and Elemental Shamans. For lore? Mages and BattleMages.
Melee and caster toolkits are elements of the class not linked to theme. The fact that a Warlock is a ranegd cyarse does not precldue the possibility of a melee spec being developed and implemented.
Translation:-Demon Hunters carry large curved Warblades. Warlocks arent capable of equiping Warblades.
Demon Hunters carry 1H swords. Warlocks aren't capable of equipping 1H swords
Except they are. See your previous point about weaponry as well.
No class other than Warlocks even try to channel chaos energy. And thats assuming your gameplay idea is implemented.- The demon hunter can channel the chaos energy within them into a melee weapon to increase its powers. This is something unique which no class offers. No class can channel Chaos through weapons even the mighty Warlocks.
And again, you confuse theme with class/spec toolkits.-Demon hunters have the ability to cover their bodies in a shell of flame , which Warlocks dont. The Immolate Aura Version of the Warlocks burns enemies within 8 or 10 yards by burning the ground , but the Immolate Version of the Demon Hunter covers their bodies in shells of flames damaging nearby enemies(1-3 yard range maximum) .
The fact that Warlocks has Meta doesn't help because it removes that spell from any consideration in the DH toolkit. It isn't a critical aspect though; Blizzard could work around that if that was the main issue.Many players say that the Demon Hunters wont happen because most of their "iconic" spells are given away to the Warlocks .
No - the issues are those pointed out by Blizzard. The big one being the lack of a unique design space for the class.
You missed his point. His point was that a big reason DHs are so popular because people want the badass glaives and that's all.Its not just the glaives. Its the ridiculous amount of overlap. Especially with Warlocks.
The only difference between a Warlock and Demon Hunter is the glaives. That isn't enough to justify an entirely new class. It would make more sense to give Warlocks a melee spec and call it Demon Hunter.
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How to solve?
Blindfold made available.
Warglaives made available
Night Elfs allowed to be Warlocks, with DH styled trainers.
Dual Wielding to be a spec/class skill
These four improvements are simple. Other than putting NElf trainers in place, the equivalent of a few minutes work.
Melee viability? That requires a dedicated spec. The changes are too great for a Glyph to implement. However...Warlocks have a history associated with tanking, and we know that work was carried out pre-MoP into making Warlocks a viable tank....such work being cut off because they ran out of time to redevelop and balance it around the active tanking paradigm.
How much work would it take the class design team to expand upon that work and add a new DH theme tank? Probably less than that required to add a new DH class.
The problem with DH as a concept is that every spell from the RTS, as well as every generic DH spell seen in-game, is already spread between Rogues and Warlocks, which conveniently enough is exactly what a DH is; An agile combatant who uses demonic power to enhance his combat abilities. There's overlap, similar to the Paladin/Priest but the problem is one Warlock spec is covering half of what the DH hero was about; Metamorphosis. While Rogues are basically DH's now just without the demonic empowerment.
Last edited by Matt0193; 2014-02-07 at 04:10 AM.
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Giving Warlocks Immolate/Immolation Aura and giving Mana Burn to priests really, really hurt the chances of Demon Hunters ever being put in WOW.
Giving metamorphosis to warlocks was blizzard's way of sealing the deal and putting the nail in the coffin: It aint gonna happen.
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Last edited by Doomiedoom; 2014-02-07 at 09:51 AM. Reason: Mistake
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Either way - you are wrong. Warlocks can and do sue weapons. In game, they just can't use them well. Lorewise, we already ahve casters who use melee weapons.
If you want to put it in those terms...I told channel Chaos through weapons and not only Channel Chaos you newbies. Dont write what you want , no class can channel chaos through weapons. You forgot to add through weapons. Warlocks dont even use weapons in combat , and furthermore they dont even channel chaos through THEM.
Your Demon Hunter idea about channeling chaos energy through weapons may be a nice concept. Blizzard mighy even use it - but it isn't lore.
Demon Hunters appear to follow the old Warlock model of augmenting their weapons through the use of Fel Energy. Warlocks did this through Fire and Spell stones but gameplay needs saw those removed from the game. As for whether a DH class would ever use the same concept if and when it is implemented? Anyones guess. The same gameplay reasons that saw the ability stripped from Warlocks could see the idea dropped from DHs. Conversely, Blizzard might opt to implement the concept in some way...perhaps akin to Poisons.
Do you really want to try and make an issue about points that have already been debated to death?
If so..some hints.
Don't use WoWwiki. Don't use WoWpedia. They ain't canon.
Don't use the RPGs. It isn't canon.
If you aren't a class designer for Blizzard, don't present your own opinion of how the class should work as fact.
Try to keep within the lore. Your initial post was riddled with errors and assumptions.
If you are going to try and debate the class "theme", then don't mix that up with gameplay or toolkit or lore.
Last edited by Talen; 2014-02-07 at 06:52 AM.
Said it before, and I'll say it again:
If it makes sense in the lore to allow DH to be a new class, it WILL happen, and frankly, it's more likely to happen than most other ideas (ie tinker). The EXACT same arguments were being made about death knights before they were released: "ALL death knights are evil without exception, it CAN'T happen", "half their abilities are already on other classes in one way or another"
People need to realize, the abilities each class 'has' are based on WCIII, where a unit had 4 abilities max. FOUR. In WoW, EVERY class has many times that amount. Do you remember paladins in WCIII having avenging wrath? Me either, but it's an (if not THE) iconic paladin ability.
Another interesting tidbit is that warlocks and death knights are SO CLOSELY related, that Gul'dan (arguably the MOST notable warlock, even standing in for the role in hearthstone) is listed as a DEATH KNIGHT in warcraft 2 (http://www.wowwiki.com/Warcraft_II_units), and don't whine about the source being wowwiki, his abilities in WCII were specifically those given to death knights.
In order to differentiate DK's for Warlocks, Blizzard changed their entire Fu relating to death knights. Death Knights created by ner'zhul/arthas were more combat focused, whereas the death knights of old were more casting focused. Just take a look at their abilities: http://www.wowwiki.com/Warcraft_II_abilities.
As a matter of fact, almost HALF their abilities are keystone abilities of other classes in Warcraft lore.
-Unholy Armor is essentially synonymous with the warlock spells fel armor and plays like a dark version of a bubble.
-Haste, yes DK's had the ability to magically buff their allies with haste. This is a targeted self/ally buff with a punishingly limited duration, so it is different than the passive self haste buff DK's enjoy in WoW.
-Whirlwind, yep, the druid spell cyclone. To the letter, identical.
Did Blizzard edit this fact out with the changes in WCIII? No. They explained it away saying that DK's were varied in style and the 'newer generation' favored direct combat and disease over spells. This is evident when you realize that the ghost of an old Death Knight haunts SMV and has the iconic WCII abilities (http://www.wowhead.com/npc=21797#abilities)
What's the point I'm making? If Blizzard thinks DH is a good choice for the lore setting, it wouldn't be difficult in the least to explain that while they harness similar magics to that of the warlock, they feel in essence, more like a rogue.
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