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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...11292543741952

    - - - Updated - - -



    Its not just the glaives. Its the ridiculous amount of overlap. Especially with Warlocks.

    The only difference between a Warlock and Demon Hunter is the glaives. That isn't enough to justify an entirely new class. It would make more sense to give Warlocks a melee spec and call it Demon Hunter.
    ...that's what I'm getting at. That the glaives are the only things people actually want, and it doesn't justify making another class. While I'm with you on this, I suggest you read further before commenting on someone's stuff.

  2. #22
    So guys here im showing you some reasons why Warlocks and Demon Hunters doesnt Share the Same Theme
    Warlocks are those who make use of demons and demonic energies to empower themselves and fight their enemies - amongst whom are demons
    Demon Hunters are those who make use of demons and demonic energies to empower themselves and fight their enemies - amoingts whom are demons.

    Truly - major differences

    First you must read the Demon Hunter concept from WoWiki :
    Well...disagree. First of all, I must realise that WoWiki is a non canon source. Secondly, I must realise that WoWiki mostly takes info from the RPG - which is non-canon.

    - First of all Demon Hunters are Shadowy Warriors. That indicates that this class uses Weapons to fight their Enemies. The Word "Shadowy" means that this class can also use Dark Magic. *Warlocks dont use Weapons to fight.*
    So I guess all those weapon rolls Warlocks get to do are needless? Warlocks do use weapons.

    -Seconly These warriors ritually blind themselves so that they develop 'spectral sight' that enables them to see demons and undead with greater clarity. Something which warlocks dont have.
    Sense Demons is hardly a key skill. Epsecially when it mainly manifests it self as "Oh look...thats a demon on my screen". This also doesn't apply to the theme of the class; simply its toolkit. At least you aren't trying to push the non-canon lore that DHs actually blind themselves.

    -Demon hunters eschew heavy armor, valuing mobility and speed.
    Last I checked, Warlocks also eschew heavy armor.

    They value mobility and speed so they can dodge or parry attacks in order to survive , but warlocks use mainly Dark Healing and Sacrifical Healing.
    And again, you are not talking about the theme, but about the toolkit necessary for the role. Put it another way...you are complaining that an Enhancement shaman has a different toolkit from an Elemental Shaman and then saying that shows Enhancement can't be about Elements.

    -The Demon Hunters use mainly Fire and Arcane Spells. Warlocks mainly use Fire and Shadow spell , and that means that the Demon Hunter is an unique Warrior which can use Arcane Energy.
    There are Demon Hunters in game which use Banish, Shadowfury, Shadownbolt, Curses and so on. Thats a lot of Shadow based magic for a class that doesn't use that school. Conversely, the arcane magic they use is.....is....well, bluntly speaking its non-existent.

    -Demon hunters hone their speed and maneuverability to overcome their foes, which Warlocks dont. Warlocks use Dark Magic and Dark Shields , Sacrifical Pacts to overcome their foes.
    [

    Translation.
    Demon Hunters have a toolkit optimised for melee combat. Warlocks, being casters, have a toolkit optimised for ranged casting.

    This is both expected and not an issue of class theme. Again, I will point you to the existing examples - Balance and Feral/Guardian Druids. Enhancement and Elemental Shamans. For lore? Mages and BattleMages.

    Melee and caster toolkits are elements of the class not linked to theme. The fact that a Warlock is a ranegd cyarse does not precldue the possibility of a melee spec being developed and implemented.

    -Demon Hunters carry large curved Warblades. Warlocks arent capable of equiping Warblades.
    Translation:
    Demon Hunters carry 1H swords. Warlocks aren't capable of equipping 1H swords

    Except they are. See your previous point about weaponry as well.

    - The demon hunter can channel the chaos energy within them into a melee weapon to increase its powers. This is something unique which no class offers. No class can channel Chaos through weapons even the mighty Warlocks.
    No class other than Warlocks even try to channel chaos energy. And thats assuming your gameplay idea is implemented.

    -Demon hunters have the ability to cover their bodies in a shell of flame , which Warlocks dont. The Immolate Aura Version of the Warlocks burns enemies within 8 or 10 yards by burning the ground , but the Immolate Version of the Demon Hunter covers their bodies in shells of flames damaging nearby enemies(1-3 yard range maximum) .
    And again, you confuse theme with class/spec toolkits.

    Many players say that the Demon Hunters wont happen because most of their "iconic" spells are given away to the Warlocks .
    The fact that Warlocks has Meta doesn't help because it removes that spell from any consideration in the DH toolkit. It isn't a critical aspect though; Blizzard could work around that if that was the main issue.

    No - the issues are those pointed out by Blizzard. The big one being the lack of a unique design space for the class.

    EJL

  3. #23
    So... no. He responded with a question pointing out the difficulties in designing the class, which have been pointed out repeatedly. He did not answer the question I was asking, which is whether or not thematic overlap alone was grounds for disqualification. I agree there are other problems with DH, but again I'm not talking about DHs specifically or addressing those other problems. I was asking a very basic general question which this tweet did not address, as much as you seem to want it to.



    Its not just the glaives. Its the ridiculous amount of overlap. Especially with Warlocks.

    The only difference between a Warlock and Demon Hunter is the glaives. That isn't enough to justify an entirely new class. It would make more sense to give Warlocks a melee spec and call it Demon Hunter.
    You missed his point. His point was that a big reason DHs are so popular because people want the badass glaives and that's all.
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  4. #24
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Illidan in Hearthstone is also classified as a Hunter.
    Illidan's card says Demon and he's classified as a Hunter, and is *the* Demon Hunter in the story. Do you really take everything at face value? It's called humour, not an easter egg.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The only difference between a Warlock and Demon Hunter is the glaives.
    No. There is the blindfold as well. And the dual wielding. And the in game viability in the melee role. And the fact that NElfs are DHs but not allowed in game to be Warlocks.

    How to solve?

    Blindfold made available.
    Warglaives made available
    Night Elfs allowed to be Warlocks, with DH styled trainers.
    Dual Wielding to be a spec/class skill

    These four improvements are simple. Other than putting NElf trainers in place, the equivalent of a few minutes work.

    Melee viability? That requires a dedicated spec. The changes are too great for a Glyph to implement. However...Warlocks have a history associated with tanking, and we know that work was carried out pre-MoP into making Warlocks a viable tank....such work being cut off because they ran out of time to redevelop and balance it around the active tanking paradigm.

    How much work would it take the class design team to expand upon that work and add a new DH theme tank? Probably less than that required to add a new DH class.

    EJL

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    No. There is the blindfold as well. And the dual wielding. And the in game viability in the melee role. And the fact that NElfs are DHs but not allowed in game to be Warlocks.

    How to solve?

    Blindfold made available.
    Warglaives made available

    Night Elfs allowed to be Warlocks, with DH styled trainers.
    Dual Wielding to be a spec/class skill

    These four improvements are simple. Other than putting NElf trainers in place, the equivalent of a few minutes work.

    Melee viability? That requires a dedicated spec. The changes are too great for a Glyph to implement. However...Warlocks have a history associated with tanking, and we know that work was carried out pre-MoP into making Warlocks a viable tank....such work being cut off because they ran out of time to redevelop and balance it around the active tanking paradigm.

    How much work would it take the class design team to expand upon that work and add a new DH theme tank? Probably less than that required to add a new DH class.

    EJL
    Warglaives and blindfolds are already in game, in fac, they both drop off the same boss, so easy for you.

    Problem solved.

  7. #27
    Herald of the Titans shoc's Avatar
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    I always thought Terrorblade, Bounty Hunter and Silencer would make interesting specs for a Demon Hunter class.
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  8. #28
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arberian View Post
    S-Seconly These warriors ritually blind themselves so that they develop 'spectral sight' that enables them to see demons and undead with greater clarity. Something which warlocks dont have.
    Actually, Warlocks did have this via their Sense Demons ability, but it was cut from the game during one of their patch cullings because it was deemed pointless clutter.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormtrooperz View Post
    It's the glaives, it's always the glaives. People can cry about how they used "x" and can make it different, but then you come up to the breaking point. You either have to have a set of glaives in every raid loot, otherwise you'll see them dual wielding swords, and at that point, what makes them so unique at that point that they'd waste hours making that copy cat of a class?
    Many said that about Frostmourne, and many were wrong.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Arikan View Post
    Has Blizzard ever stated that classes having thematic overlap is grounds for disqualifying that class as a future possibility?
    No, but there's overlap like Rogue and Monk (Agile combatants) or Paladin and Priest (uses the Light to aid themselves, their allies or to smite their enemies). They're similar, and in the case of the Paladin and Priest, they may have similar roots but the classes are defined by their connection to whatever source of power they have. Likewise, they don't share abilities.

    The problem with DH as a concept is that every spell from the RTS, as well as every generic DH spell seen in-game, is already spread between Rogues and Warlocks, which conveniently enough is exactly what a DH is; An agile combatant who uses demonic power to enhance his combat abilities. There's overlap, similar to the Paladin/Priest but the problem is one Warlock spec is covering half of what the DH hero was about; Metamorphosis. While Rogues are basically DH's now just without the demonic empowerment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Many said that about Frostmourne, and many were wrong.
    Many also thought they'd have DK's from the RTS, they were wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    No. There is the blindfold as well. And the dual wielding. And the in game viability in the melee role. And the fact that NElfs are DHs but not allowed in game to be Warlocks.
    Except... when they become DH's they're exiled from Elven lands. There's a pretty good reason why it's not "Come, sign up and be a DH" sort of thing.
    Last edited by Matt0193; 2014-02-07 at 04:10 AM.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormtrooperz View Post
    Warglaives and blindfolds are already in game, in fac, they both drop off the same boss, so easy for you.

    Problem solved.
    And aren't usable by Warlocks.

    EJL

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Thassarian View Post
    Many also thought they'd have DK's from the RTS, they were wrong.
    I would say Blizzard did a very good job translating the Warcraft 3 Hero into WoW. Aside from fighting while mounted, what can't you do as a DK in WoW that you could in Warcraft 3?

  13. #33
    They could do a demon hunter yes, but a demonhunter is basically a melee lock wearing leather or mail, with melee weapons. Cool idea but locks and demon hunters are very similar.

  14. #34
    The Patient Arberian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    I prefer the concept from Blizzard instead of someones personal take on non-canon information much of which is contradicted in game and actual canon lore.

    In short - this passage is interesting but it would be better off if it was actually correct

    EJL
    Shut up, this is from WoWiki and i never type nonsense.
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  15. #35
    Giving Warlocks Immolate/Immolation Aura and giving Mana Burn to priests really, really hurt the chances of Demon Hunters ever being put in WOW.

    Giving metamorphosis to warlocks was blizzard's way of sealing the deal and putting the nail in the coffin: It aint gonna happen.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Arberian View Post
    -Demon hunters have the ability to cover their bodies in a shell of flame , which Warlocks dont. The Immolate Aura Version of the Warlocks burns enemies within 8 or 10 yards by burning the ground , but the Immolate Version of the Demon Hunter covers their bodies in shells of flames damaging nearby enemies(1-3 yard range maximum) .
    WotLK and I think Cataclysm warlock metamorphosis actually had immolation aura that was exactly like demon hunter version, but in MoP the animation was changed to hellfire that didn't need to be channeled
    Last edited by Doomiedoom; 2014-02-07 at 09:51 AM. Reason: Mistake

  17. #37
    The Patient Arberian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    So I guess all those weapon rolls Warlocks get to do are needless? Warlocks do use weapons.
    Any weapon ability: For Example Slam for Warriors , Hemorrhage for Rogues. What about Warlocks?! I told that the Demon Hunter uses weapons to FIGHT, i have never seen any warlock who fights using weapons.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post

    No class other than Warlocks even try to channel chaos energy. And thats assuming your gameplay idea is implemented.
    I told channel Chaos through weapons and not only Channel Chaos you newbies. Dont write what you want , no class can channel chaos through weapons. You forgot to add through weapons. Warlocks dont even use weapons in combat , and furthermore they dont even channel chaos through THEM.
    My youtube Channel : Arberian021
    WoW isn't all about new concepts or themes, it's about classic archetypes that fit the Holy Trinity gameplay style of Warcraft.
    Demon Hunter Class Idea
    "Where is the difference between Flash Heal and Flash of Light ?!Where is the difference between Conflagrate and Fire Blast ?!"

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Arberian View Post
    Shut up, this is from WoWiki and i never type nonsense.
    As I said...non-canon information from a non-canon website can only ever be of limited validity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arberian View Post
    Any weapon ability: For Example Slam for Warriors , Hemorrhage for Rogues. What about Warlocks?! I told that the Demon Hunter uses weapons to FIGHT, i have never seen any warlock who fights using weapons.
    They cam equip and use weapons. Lore wise - they can use them. Game wise, they just have autoattack.

    Either way - you are wrong. Warlocks can and do sue weapons. In game, they just can't use them well. Lorewise, we already ahve casters who use melee weapons.

    I told channel Chaos through weapons and not only Channel Chaos you newbies. Dont write what you want , no class can channel chaos through weapons. You forgot to add through weapons. Warlocks dont even use weapons in combat , and furthermore they dont even channel chaos through THEM.
    If you want to put it in those terms...

    Your Demon Hunter idea about channeling chaos energy through weapons may be a nice concept. Blizzard mighy even use it - but it isn't lore.

    Demon Hunters appear to follow the old Warlock model of augmenting their weapons through the use of Fel Energy. Warlocks did this through Fire and Spell stones but gameplay needs saw those removed from the game. As for whether a DH class would ever use the same concept if and when it is implemented? Anyones guess. The same gameplay reasons that saw the ability stripped from Warlocks could see the idea dropped from DHs. Conversely, Blizzard might opt to implement the concept in some way...perhaps akin to Poisons.

    Do you really want to try and make an issue about points that have already been debated to death?

    If so..some hints.

    Don't use WoWwiki. Don't use WoWpedia. They ain't canon.
    Don't use the RPGs. It isn't canon.
    If you aren't a class designer for Blizzard, don't present your own opinion of how the class should work as fact.
    Try to keep within the lore. Your initial post was riddled with errors and assumptions.
    If you are going to try and debate the class "theme", then don't mix that up with gameplay or toolkit or lore.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2014-02-07 at 06:52 AM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    fail example. illidan as a demon is a bad example of a demon hunter.
    Illidan is a bad example of a demon hunter?

    That's it I'm leaving this thread right now.
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  20. #40
    Brewmaster Rhaide's Avatar
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    Said it before, and I'll say it again:

    If it makes sense in the lore to allow DH to be a new class, it WILL happen, and frankly, it's more likely to happen than most other ideas (ie tinker). The EXACT same arguments were being made about death knights before they were released: "ALL death knights are evil without exception, it CAN'T happen", "half their abilities are already on other classes in one way or another"

    People need to realize, the abilities each class 'has' are based on WCIII, where a unit had 4 abilities max. FOUR. In WoW, EVERY class has many times that amount. Do you remember paladins in WCIII having avenging wrath? Me either, but it's an (if not THE) iconic paladin ability.

    Another interesting tidbit is that warlocks and death knights are SO CLOSELY related, that Gul'dan (arguably the MOST notable warlock, even standing in for the role in hearthstone) is listed as a DEATH KNIGHT in warcraft 2 (http://www.wowwiki.com/Warcraft_II_units), and don't whine about the source being wowwiki, his abilities in WCII were specifically those given to death knights.

    In order to differentiate DK's for Warlocks, Blizzard changed their entire Fu relating to death knights. Death Knights created by ner'zhul/arthas were more combat focused, whereas the death knights of old were more casting focused. Just take a look at their abilities: http://www.wowwiki.com/Warcraft_II_abilities.

    As a matter of fact, almost HALF their abilities are keystone abilities of other classes in Warcraft lore.
    -Unholy Armor is essentially synonymous with the warlock spells fel armor and plays like a dark version of a bubble.
    -Haste, yes DK's had the ability to magically buff their allies with haste. This is a targeted self/ally buff with a punishingly limited duration, so it is different than the passive self haste buff DK's enjoy in WoW.
    -Whirlwind, yep, the druid spell cyclone. To the letter, identical.

    Did Blizzard edit this fact out with the changes in WCIII? No. They explained it away saying that DK's were varied in style and the 'newer generation' favored direct combat and disease over spells. This is evident when you realize that the ghost of an old Death Knight haunts SMV and has the iconic WCII abilities (http://www.wowhead.com/npc=21797#abilities)

    What's the point I'm making? If Blizzard thinks DH is a good choice for the lore setting, it wouldn't be difficult in the least to explain that while they harness similar magics to that of the warlock, they feel in essence, more like a rogue.
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