Loot Issues/Loot Discussion

[Deleted]

People have the weirdest ideas about coins, ofcourse you can't discount them if you're interested in gearing the entire raid.

Also people are fucking stupid when it comes to bonus rolling. Take Purified Bindings, if you weren't rolling that shit when several people still needed it just because you think you are next in line/might win a roll you are a douchebag. Heavily contested items are the best to roll for to gear up the raid.

About your specific case it's hard to say as an outsider.

[Deleted]

People have the weirdest ideas about coins, ofcourse you can't discount them if you're interested in gearing the entire raid.

Also people are fucking stupid when it comes to bonus rolling. Take Purified Bindings, if you weren't rolling that shit when several people still needed it just because you think you are next in line/might win a roll you are a douchebag. Heavily contested items are the best to roll for to gear up the raid.

About your specific case it's hard to say as an outsider.

We had two people coin the H Thok ring this week thankfully. Thing is BiS for literally half of my raid group.

[Deleted]

Yea I'm not buying a 12 ilvl difference through luck alone either. That's like a whole set of heroic gear difference (i.e. 16 pieces vs the mentioned ~7) There's more going on here

I did explain the ilvl different in my first reply. I was the main tank of the 10 man guild but when we formed 25 man for WoD, the guild we merged with demanded there MT stay a tank and that one of the 10 man tanks had to change to dps. After discussion I agreed to do it. Thats what I got a few items noone needed like echoes of war and trash drops which all counted as loot gained from LC whilst the warlock literally coined Heroic WF binding, Heroic wf staff, and heroic wf offhand. as well as many other no wf herouc items., The guy is literally a rolling machine. As for performance. I am the raid leader. I can 100% assue you it was nothing to do with that, as I consistently perform very well for my gear. Heck, only this warlock beats me on most encounters.

Thank you all for the replies so far. I understand opinions regarding the actual item are varying but once again the discussion is primarily whether coining an item should be classed as an item won from LC in an attempt to evenly distribute loot and prevent the lucky people from double dipping.

[kamuimac]

well tbh i dont want to be a dick but it looks like someone may be sit out on next bosses progress while lock will be for certain in for progress -_-

ye i missed the part of being rl -_- my fault

but no matter what loot system someone will be always unhappy cause there will be always those 1-2 people who are super hiper lucky with drops/rolls and will be higher itlv then rest - and it escalates when they are happy wining then they can play their card much better then other aka skiping tiny minor upgrades and then spending their dkp/epgp/ksk position while this super hiper wf piece drops that eveyrbody else want -_- but its their right if they dont slow down guild progress by doin it and if they know they can afford it while being on top of dps/healing meters regardless of passing on mino upgrades

gearing up via systems other then /roll is another game in itself and just like some people are better while topping meters others are better while planing which upgrade to take and which to skip whithout lowering their own performance significantly to the point that nobody notices it -_-

[Deleted]

well tbh i dont want to be a dick but it looks like someone may be sit out on next bosses progress while lock will be for certain in for progress -_-

As the raid leader I certainly wont be sitting myself out But you're right. If I wasnt I'd be worried

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We had two people coin the H Thok ring this week thankfully. Thing is BiS for literally half of my raid group.

Imagine if the tier head had dropped and the people who coined the ring also won the head because the coin doesnt count..... Like you said. Its pants on head crazy.

[Nexii]

As the raid leader I certainly wont be sitting myself out But you're right. If I wasnt I'd be worried

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Imagine if the tier head had dropped and the people who coined the ring also won the head because the coin doesnt count..... Like you said. Its pants on head crazy.

Wait if you're RL why aren't you determining the LC? This seems a recipe for disaster in my opinion. You're the one setting the roster based on attendance/performance, and hence you should be giving out loot based on the same criteria.

And yea, keeping track of all past loot is a real waste of time. Just give things to those that benefit the most. Give some things to the very geared too however, they put in more time and so deserve to be rewarded. Yes sacrificing to switch to DPS for a 25M is noble, but I wouldn't say that deserves getting everything over someone that has been DPS all along. You have a geared tank and a geared DPS now...and in the long run it averages out. I don't see getting so worked up about it. It's not like you aren't going to catch up when most of your main DPS are well geared.

[Deleted]

As the raid leader I certainly wont be sitting myself out But you're right. If I wasnt I'd be worried

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Imagine if the tier head had dropped and the people who coined the ring also won the head because the coin doesnt count..... Like you said. Its pants on head crazy.

I actually got the helm and the ring. Coined the ring and won the helm because no one else on that token needed it.

[cFortyfive]

Wait if you're RL why aren't you determining the LC? This seems a recipe for disaster in my opinion. You're the one setting the roster based on attendance/performance, and hence you should be giving out loot based on the same criteria.

Don't see a general problem. Raidlead is mostly being done by one of our officers but he is not the guildlead or the one in charge of distributing the items.

[Deleted]

Don't see a general problem. Raidlead is mostly being done by one of our officers but he is not the guildlead or the one in charge of distributing the items.

Im the raid leader and I also am part of the loot council. I wasnt able to vote if its an item Im rolling on so that why I had no influence over that. And this whole discussion is because I want to change one of the loot rules. Atm, coins have no influence. Thats why im here, to ask everybodies opinion on it. Im debating making is a set in stone rule that all coined loot must be made aware to the officers and that it does indeed count as an item received. This is the best way to gear up the raid evenly in my opinion

[kamuimac]

Im the raid leader and I also am part of the loot council. I wasnt able to vote if its an item Im rolling on so that why I had no influence over that. And this whole discussion is because I want to change one of the loot rules. Atm, coins have no influence. Thats why im here, to ask everybodies opinion on it. Im debating making is a set in stone rule that all coined loot must be made aware to the officers and that it does indeed count as an item received. This is the best way to gear up the raid evenly in my opinion

remember that if u set such rule people who are lucky with rolls with try to stay secretive about this trying to go unnoticed and in some cases they may straight leave ur group cause then there is possibility that they may go without loot for weeks in favour of gearing up weaker geared people -_-
u are not shooting for realm/world ranks so gear in itself dont play such high role in progress as u may think it does -_- it may demoralizing for those who are totaly about min maxing performance casue why should they care if they have to pass upgrades for the people who are underperforming just for the sake of gearing them up - um not saying u are performing badly cause u probably arent but there are some cases where people may feel straight cheated cause not geting loot for significant amount of time why they are forced to pass huge upgrades (weapons/trinekts/set) when they won some minor things like rings/necks is just well shitty move -_-

this all look like like a really bad case of being butthurt about loot - it was same upgrade for both of u - obtaining it would gave u both same bonus in main/secondary stats and it all look like ur butthurt about not geting it just and straight cause ur lower itlv then him -_- im not saying this to offend u but it really does look like it -_- it was not his fault u were forced to reroll char -_- it was your guild decision about merger and merges are never easy -_- its exackly same upgrade for both of u it didng gave neither of u set bonus which u didnt have u both have sure spot in team i really dont see what is the problem there ? expet for greed cause u have lower itlv then him -_-

[Nexii]

So your guild trusts you to lead a raid and set the roster but not give out loot fairly? I still don't really understand this unless the other officers are doing those duties specifically. I mean really, a council can still vote to give items to those on the council regardless. It seems like there isn't much trust in the guild to me.

Also if you're deciding loot by number of items received previously this is not a good system if you're focused on progression. Minor upgrades will count as much as big ones, and that will entice people to not roll on minor upgrades as it will drop their priority. You've essentially got a round robin system and not a loot council. Loot council priority is usually determined by biggest upgrade, given that the two players competing are considered 'core' raiders.

[Deleted]

I think people are going slightly off track again. This thread was never about who should have got the tier helm. This was about the guilds reason for the decision and that reason was that token do not count as loot gained. The scenario I used was just to set the scene so you could consider the coin issue in the way I want it to be looked at. This thread was made to ask whether you guys believe coins should indeed count as loot or they are completely personal and should never be taken into consideration.

Many of you have said to gear up the raid fairly it HAS to be documented. other, (more loot centred people) have said no it shouldn't. Basically, it seems the people who are there for the raid and progression say yes, those who just want personal loot say no. There were 6 people on the council nexi. The vote was 3/2. If i have to vote im clearly gonna vote for myself, making it even. so i cant do that. not really difficult to understand is it.

[Nexii]

Of course coined loot should 'count' as loot gained just as loot given by drop. The person has that gear equipped and it's a consideration in giving further loot. You wouldn't give the warlock a second heroic tier helm for example if he had coined one the week previous. I'm not sure where the logic of saying coins are personal loot but raid drops aren't personal really comes from. Both are earned by killing bosses.

If your attitude is that you'd always vote for yourself on loot, then I can see why you'd have need of a 6 person loot council. If you really wanted team-based loot council, it would exist already. I think it would perhaps be best for your guild to just /roll 100 on everything, or perhaps at least in close votes. Actually this is what my 10m does in close calls for upgrades between core members.

[Nivrax]

If you want to have best raid gain, distribute loot by ilvl gain on pieces and by how much they help spec. If a wf items drops, and for person A it's 31+ ilvl gain, and for person B it's 8+ ilvl gain, then it doesn't matter how many pieces they had and it should always go to A.
Assuming similar ilvl upgrade, crit ring should not ever go to affli lock over fire mage, and it would be crime against loot gods to give UVLS to mage over demo/affli lock. Overall item gain should be really secondary to those, and if it comes to this it means both players get similar upgrade. Then it comes down who got most loot, but wheter or not count coin items you should ask your raid and how they would prefer, as at this point it's purely personal feelings (no matter who gets it, it's same gain for raid overall).

You have to be flexible, instead what point is using Loot council over point systems?

Edit: to be clear. If you would follow above 'Raid gain > personal gain' rules, I would personally not count coin loot since it eliminates actually screwing yourself with you from 'winning' 'lucky' roll. But it really should come down to what your raid think, as it's them who have to be satisfied.

[Marxman]

So the warlock already had a better head aswell as being 12 ilvls higher than me in total.

Actually you had the same helmet, except you were either very lucky on loot and had no VP to upgrade, or you were lazy. Either way, you didn't have a worse helm, you had the same helm.

My question to all you guys is this. Should winning loot on coins have no relevance to your priority on loot from the boss. My argument is that those who are very lucky and coin get substantially more geared than the unlucky people as those unlucky people will passed over on loot because they are awarded an item from the loot council whereas the bonus roller hasn't so he rolls loot AND gets prio on loot.

You can't use bonus loot as a loot council factor. You just can't. It's a bonus. If you get lucky, good for you. If not, well, that sucks. But it really can't and shouldn't be a factor in loot decisions. The only reason to even consider it is if based on upgrade size. If one person has coined an item and thus has a better piece in that slot. That's not really taking bonus loot into consideration, it's just looking at upgrade size though.

This thread is especially silly considering it's a Warlock and every piece of gear on them is worth at least 60-80% more than every piece of gear on a Shadow Priest, one of the worst DPS classes right now. You SHOULD be giving loot to your Warlocks. Doubly so during progression when gear still matters somewhat. You aren't diminishing your raid strength by giving gear to your best DPS class. You'd be diminishing it by giving it to your worst DPS class, i.e. Priests. That's not to say he should automatically win every caster drop, just that you have to consider relative gains of the raid.

[Deleted]

You can't use bonus loot as a loot council factor. You just can't. It's a bonus. If you get lucky, good for you. If not, well, that sucks. But it really can't and shouldn't be a factor in loot decisions. The only reason to even consider it is if based on upgrade size. If one person has coined an item and thus has a better piece in that slot. That's not really taking bonus loot into consideration, it's just looking at upgrade size though.

This thread is especially silly considering it's a Warlock and every piece of gear on them is worth at least 60-80% more than every piece of gear on a Shadow Priest, one of the worst DPS classes right now. You SHOULD be giving loot to your Warlocks. Doubly so during progression when gear still matters somewhat. You aren't diminishing your raid strength by giving gear to your best DPS class. You'd be diminishing it by giving it to your worst DPS class, i.e. Priests. That's not to say he should automatically win every caster drop, just that you have to consider relative gains of the raid.

It seems this post is full of contradiction. First of all you said getting bonus loot shouldnt count towards loot council loot. Then you go on to say we should have given the item to the Warlock because they are the better dps and the same ilvl upgrade would scale better on him therefore being better for the guild. yet allowing people who coin items to still have equal priority on gear as people who didn't coin is directly reducing your raids strength as your increasing the chance of a lucky person getting fully geared whilst the unlucky roller lags behind. There would have to be some specific rules to avoid coining a really bad item, such as a cloak when you have legendary then baring you from loot. Something like it has to be BiS to be considered a loot council item. Either way, your post was one giant contradiction. I'd also like to point out its not all about DPS. A warlock basically offer nothing to a raid group except damage. Gear on a shadow priest for example increase raid CD such as Vampiric embrace aswell as shield, PoM's and lvl 90 talents which do upwards of 100k HPS on fights such as Thok. Your very narrow minded.

[Alvito]

Do you count Ordos items against people also? Do you make sure everybody has their 3 coins to roll with each week? Depending on how you answer that then you should or shouldn't have given it to the lock. Clearly other things come into the mix, attendance and performance being major factors.

[Deleted]

Do you count Ordos items against people also? Do you make sure everybody has their 3 coins to roll with each week? Depending on how you answer that then you should or shouldn't have given it to the lock. Clearly other things come into the mix, attendance and performance being major factors.

Ordos is not counted against them and all raider must have 3 coins at the start of the raid. Ordos is personal, you do that alone. A coin is useless without the guild providing you with the chance to use the coin. Therefore the coin isn't personal, its just another way to gear your raiders which wouldn't of been possible without the raid/guild.

[markdall]

My guild uses Loot Council on tier gear only. I went through T14 and T15 getting my tier gear mostly by myself via coins. It didn't feel enjoyable at all, but I do understand. Still felt crappy though.

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Ordos is not counted against them and all raider must have 3 coins at the start of the raid. Ordos is personal, you do that alone. A coin is useless without the guild providing you with the chance to use the coin. Therefore the coin isn't personal, its just another way to gear your raiders which wouldn't of been possible without the raid/guild.

Can addons check your coin count?

[clevin]

If you want to have best raid gain, distribute loot by ilvl gain on pieces and by how much they help spec. If a wf items drops, and for person A it's 31+ ilvl gain, and for person B it's 8+ ilvl gain, then it doesn't matter how many pieces they had and it should always go to A.

This. If you want a loot council use a damn loot council and loot council should only be looking at one thing - what will help the raid the most? Period.

Whether that person got a piece the boss before whether they've coined 5 pieces that run, all of this is irrelevant in a LC setup. The moment loot councils try to do anything but allot loot based on what makes the raid stronger you get drama.

If you want to count who's gotten loot most recently and whether they got it via a coin then man the fuck up and use DKP. But quit trying to combine the two, it's a bad idea.

Also, no matter how many times you claim it's not about your example I can't help but note that your example starts with you losing a piece.