1. #1

    10 man resto druid: 13163 haste or mastery

    Hi. I've been reading a lot about the 13163 hbp and am really interested to try it out though it seems with my gear (553 ilvl) i'm still a bit shy. I was unable to post an armory link: My character is Zërxis - Stormreaver, e = alt 137.

    Just wondering a few things:

    1) What is the optimal or just right ilvl to reach this?
    2) I am currently at 43% mastery buffed and I am able to hold my own and come out on top a good amount of the time (side note: play with a disc priest, and a holy pally whose bubbles are 40%, and on some encounters the hps feels low, comment if you would like ). Any 10 man resto's that have done the 13163 in 10m find it better/worse?
    3) Not really distinguished anywhere, but is it assumed that SotF will be specced at this breakpoint or is it not a necessity?

    Any comments would be great. Thank you.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Zerxes View Post
    Hi. I've been reading a lot about the 13163 hbp
    I doubt that as if you had you wouldn't have made this thread asking something when 5 other threads of the same topic already exist. But to answer your question anyway it mostly boils down to the gear you have available. If you are severely lacking Haste pieces then there's no reason to chase after the 13136 as it'll be extremely frustrating trying to get to that point. You need about 7k-8k naturally on gear to reach it assuming you use Spirit as your reforge stat. The amplification trinket from Sha of Pride will help too (does Immerseus' trinket work for healers despite being a caster trinket?).

  3. #3
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    I think the majority of Resto Druids have stopped treating spirit as their primary reforge/gemming stat. Personally I'm sitting at ~13.5k spirit and that's with 1-2 pieces where I reforged out of spirit and into mastery. When reaching the 13k haste breakpoint I would imagine haste becomes the new priority reforge/gemming stat for nearly every resto druid until you either have a ton of spirit/haste gear or start breaking 560+ ilvl.

    1) What is the optimal or just right ilvl to reach this?
    Any level of gear where you can hopefully just swap out your mastery for haste to hit the breakpoint without dropping too many gem bonuses or having to go below whatever spirit value you are comfortable with. However I just ran your profile through askmrrobot and you simply can't hit the 13k cap with your current itemization no matter what you do (even gemming 320 haste in every socket and reforging each item's highest stat to spirit will get you slightly under the 13163 cap). However if you pick up ~3 more pieces with haste you should be able to do it reasonably easily.

    2) I am currently at 43% mastery buffed -snip- Any 10 man resto's that have done the 13163 in 10m find it better/worse?
    The problem I was running into is that mastery has effective diminishing returns, for each 1% of mastery you gain now you'll only increase your healing by 0.7% (as opposed to ~0.83% at 20% mastery). Now while the old tier did push haste up with 4 pc t15, you should still be fairly significantly above the gear level where haste overtakes mastery as a pure throughput stat (until 13k ofc), note that there are other bonuses to haste like more clearcasting procs and PPM procs (meta/cape/trinkets).

    I would point you towards http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/...-part-5-haste/ as a very good analysis of this issue.

    3) Not really distinguished anywhere, but is it assumed that SotF will be specced at this breakpoint or is it not a necessity?
    I've been using SotF as the default talent since the 5.4 buff, although some people still like Incarnation for some fights where the instant regrowths are nice.

  4. #4
    Just thought I'd answer this:
    Does Immerseus' trinket work for healers despite being a caster trinket?

    The amplification effect does work, but the proc will not except on melee hits and feral cat dots. It does not proc on wrath or moonfire for resto druid.

  5. #5
    Thanks for the info and suggestions. I'll continue to see what changes I can make as gear comes and go from there.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerxes View Post
    Any 10 man resto's that have done the 13163 in 10m find it better/worse?
    I liked this thread, thanks for asking the question because it's exactly on topic for me in raiding right now too. I'd really like more rdruids with experience healing heroics 10s to comment if able on the above quoted question.
    I currently have stayed at 6652 haste because I felt that I would be loosing too many other stats to try to push through to 13163. However, I have learned since that many 10 player rdruids do choose to take haste-unlimited spirit route instead of haste-mastery while maintaining a static spirit value. To me, this sounds counter-productive in a 10 player raid setting. I heal with a shaman and a dpriest and I feel as though I would be trying to spam rejuvs on targets that are already getting shielded/healed. I thought that in a 25 player setting, this might be okay because of the number of healing candidates compared to a 10 player raid. However, in a 10 player raid, I thought powerful healing as opposed to quick and endless healing would be more effective. Am I wrong?
    Also, when aiming for 13163, do you factor in the SotF talent or go for a static 13163?
    Last edited by Azvanna; 2014-02-25 at 07:37 AM. Reason: stat correction

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Azvanna View Post
    I liked this thread, thanks for asking the question because it's exactly on topic for me in raiding right now too. I'd really like more rdruids with experience healing heroics 10s to comment if able on the above quoted question.
    I currently have stayed at 6% haste because I felt that I would be loosing too many other stats to try to push through to 13163. However, I have learned since that many 10 player rdruids do choose to take haste-unlimited spirit route instead of haste-mastery while maintaining a static spirit value. To me, this sounds counter-productive in a 10 player raid setting. I heal with a shaman and a dpriest and I feel as though I would be trying to spam rejuvs on targets that are already getting shielded/healed. I thought that in a 25 player setting, this might be okay because of the number of healing candidates compared to a 10 player raid. However, in a 10 player raid, I thought powerful healing as opposed to quick and endless healing would be more effective. Am I wrong?
    Also, when aiming for 13163, do you factor in the SotF talent or go for a static 13163?
    6% haste? what?

    1) there really needs to be some sort of sticky post on these forums about the HBP. If you can reach it, go for it.

    2) re: haste/spirit/mastery priority, mastery is a very clear winner over spirit for SoO heroics (though I'm sure people will pop up to tell you they've healed it with 19k spirit). Personally, I feel that people value spirit far too highly this tier. Most heroic fights have periods of low damage followed by periods of very very high damage. The mastery absolutely makes the difference between keeping your group alive in these phases. I've also healed all of SoO hc and only gone OoM on 2 fights during progression (mana that came back very easily during the periods of low damage) - Malkorok by needlessly spamming the raid, and Thok with bad meta procs.

    3) 13163 regardless of SotF
    Last edited by Rekkiem; 2014-02-24 at 11:43 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by adynn View Post
    I think the majority of Resto Druids have stopped treating spirit as their primary reforge/gemming stat. Personally I'm sitting at ~13.5k spirit and that's with 1-2 pieces where I reforged out of spirit and into mastery. When reaching the 13k haste breakpoint I would imagine haste becomes the new priority reforge/gemming stat for nearly every resto druid until you either have a ton of spirit/haste gear or start breaking 560+ ilvl.
    Spirit is a pretty lousy stat beyond 10k, and mostly useless beyond 13k. Once you have enough mana to fill every GCD during high damage phases, all you get from more spirit is the ability to cast more Rejuvenations during the low damage phases when they're not needed anyway. I've reforged away from spirit in every slot, landing around 11k, and that stack of mana potions is still sitting pretty much untouched in my bags. I go low at times, but very rarely OOM, and I can't even remember the last time someone died because I didn't have enough mana to heal them.

    The legendary meta gem helps quite a bit, though. You'll want to get a bit more spirit than that if you don't have it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurik View Post
    JDoes Immerseus' trinket work for healers despite being a caster trinket?
    The passive effect works, but the proc doesn't proc from healing. It's not really worth using, and it's definitely not worth stealing from a caster. Most raids have far more use for higher DPS than for marginally improved healing throughput.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azvanna View Post
    Also, when aiming for 13163, do you factor in the SotF talent or go for a static 13163?
    The uptime on SotF isn't high enough to be worth considering when reforging/gemming. It's only going to affect one spell every 15-20 seconds, which is about 10% of the spells you cast. Don't bother with SotF-related haste breakpoints, and just go for 13163.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rekkiem View Post
    6% haste? what?
    Sorry, 6652 rating. nearly 22%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rekkiem View Post
    1) there really needs to be some sort of sticky post on these forums about the HBP. If you can reach it, go for it.
    Is this always true? I read to do this, but not at the expense of too much mastery. If I have to put haste+intel in most of my gem slots and reforge out of mastery to get there, is this overall better output for me and so better for my raid? How do I know how much is 'too much?'

    Quote Originally Posted by Rekkiem View Post
    2) Most heroic fights have periods of low damage followed by periods of very very high damage. The mastery absolutely makes the difference between keeping your group alive in these phases.
    I agree with you regarding spirit here. This is exactly what I found when I first began raiding with my current guild.. a lot of overhealing and continuous hotting done without going oom, but my healing just seemed lacking in power. It felt ineffective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rekkiem View Post
    3) 13163 regardless of SotF
    Thank you.
    And thank you Alltat for explaining why.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azvanna View Post
    Is this always true? I read to do this, but not at the expense of too much mastery. If I have to put haste+intel in most of my gem slots and reforge out of mastery to get there, is this overall better output for me and so better for my raid? How do I know how much is 'too much?'
    As a general rule, it's worth going for if you can reach it without breaking socket bonuses or replacing items/enchants with lower level ones that happen to have haste.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    As a general rule, it's worth going for if you can reach it without breaking socket bonuses or replacing items/enchants with lower level ones that happen to have haste.
    I see, thank you. I have trouble getting my head around the fact that an extra tick of rejuvenation could make such a huge difference compared with benefits of mastery. I suppose I will just have to go ahead and try it out to see for myself.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Azvanna View Post
    I see, thank you. I have trouble getting my head around the fact that an extra tick of rejuvenation could make such a huge difference compared with benefits of mastery. I suppose I will just have to go ahead and try it out to see for myself.
    Just did a quick Ask Mr Robot for you Azvanna and you could easily make that BP without losing much of your socket bonuses. You will lose a decent amount of mastery and spirit but your overall healing will be much better and you will have to cast less. I set your Spirit BP at 12.5k and the haste BP at the 13163 stop.

    I personally switched to the 13k HBP when I was around IL 550 or so at the cost of tons of socket bonuses and mastery but found my heals to be better. Then as I geared to where I am now I slowly worked my mastery back up.

    As has been said, go for it and I dont think you will turn back.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azvanna View Post
    I see, thank you. I have trouble getting my head around the fact that an extra tick of rejuvenation could make such a huge difference compared with benefits of mastery. I suppose I will just have to go ahead and try it out to see for myself.
    It's not just an extra tick of Rejuvenation. You also get an extra tick of Tranquility (the HoT it leaves on people, not the channel), two extra ticks of Wild Growth, a bunch of extra ticks of Lifebloom, and faster Efflorescence ticks along the way. An extra Rejuvenation tick also means your mushroom will grow that much faster, which means more bloom healing (unless you let it sit at the cap most of the time).

    But yes, even despite all that it's still just a marginal improvement over mastery. The real benefit comes when you reach 570+ item level and start to get 13k spirit and high mastery.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  14. #14
    I have follwing problem
    according to the advice AskMrRobot i reached 13163 haste
    askmrrobot stormreaver hovnajz

    but when i check my char in-game or in http stormreaver Hovnajz advanced
    it says haste 30,99% (13171 haste points)
    so did i reach the famous 37.52% Soft Haste Cap or not?

  15. #15
    Alright got a few things to say...
    Usually for the 13k haste build to be an increase in throughput, you need at least 5k mastery left, but there is little difference between the 13k and 3k builds.

    We can't really tell you how much spirit you'll need, but I reforged ALL I could into haste/mastery and I'm sitting with 11.5k spirit and 42.5% mastery unbuffed (578ilvl) and I've been reforged that way for a while now (been clearing 14/14H every week since october, (US 6th if you wanna know) but I went for more spirit during prog), and I only go oom when the shit hits the fan, I'm very unlucky on my meta procs and I got a little overboard with the rejuvs.
    But think of it that way: 480 mastery = 1% increased on all your heals while 480 spirit = 1 more rejuv per 3 mins of combat.

    As for the value of mastery, you can't really say it has a ''diminishing return'', it'll always change depending on the rest of your stats. Whether 2 mastery > 1 int will change depending on the amount of each. At some point, int will be better until you have enough of it that mastery will take over, until a certain point where it'll switch back to int.
    And regardless of its value, it'll still be better than other secondary stats past the haste breakpoint.

    Also for Azvanna, you are wasting much more stats staying at the 6652 haste breakpoint than going for the next one. This isn't a breakpoint you should be aiming for and should never be at it unless even if you reforge all your haste you stay really close to it.

    Rehakcz: Yes, the breakpoint assumes the 5% haste raid buff.


    Edit: few typos
    Last edited by Tartuk; 2014-02-27 at 07:18 PM.

  16. #16
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rehakcz View Post
    but when i check my char in-game or in http stormreaver Hovnajz advanced it says haste 30,99% (13171 haste points)
    so did i reach the famous 37.52% Soft Haste Cap or not?
    30.99% is over 37.52% when combined with the 5% haste raid buff:

    1.3099*1.05 = 1.3754

    They stack multiplicatively. Always look at the haste number (i.e. "13163") and ignore the percentages. There's literally no reason to ever care about what your haste percentage is.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

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