How can I get my raid leader to understand?

[Zantos]

Recently we killed Garrosh normal and began to try heroic progression. However, there is a problem. My guilds raid leader keeps wanting to jump from boss to boss. We start working on one heroic boss, then we change after an hour and go to a different. We have seen so far 4 heroic bosses in the first two weeks of trying to progress. It got especially bad when we were making honest progress on the first boss, getting to the third / fourth split phase when the raid leader said "alright, lets go try heroic protectors now". I tried explaining to him that we won't kill anything if we don't put in the time and effort to focus on actually progressing on a boss. He said that we need to see more of the mechanics for the other bosses. How can I get my raid leader to understand that we wont kill any of these heroic bosses unless we actually get to stay on them and actually work on progression so we can get used to all the small things in the fight.

[durrtygoodz]

Show him this reply:

Dear Zantos's Raid Leader,

You, my friend, are a moron.

Yours Truly,

Frenikk, Draenor EU

[MiLLeR]

It does not sound like this is a guild you really want to be part of. Nor would I.

[Zantos]

It does not sound like this is a guild you really want to be part of. Nor would I.

Ive been with them since firelands. I just don't understand why they won't listen. We recently went to just two raid days and one of our tanks may be gone tomorrow because of irl stuff. So their reasoning for jumping around the multiple heroic bosses tonight was "well we got to see as many as we can tonight". We were making real progress on the first boss when they decided to up and try two new heroics. Heck, we got the third boss on heroic to 15% one night. That one came down to not enough dps. Instead of working on that boss or finishing the first boss, they decide to jump around. I really want to progress in the heroics just like they do, but they are being counter productive to that goal at this point.

[Nexii]

Switching can help morale, but an hour and move on is overkill. Sometimes certain heroics a group will have an easier time with. For example my group struggled some with H Sha, due to raid comp.

Though I think if you really want to progress heroics, a more dedicated team might be better for you. Unless the RL and players are exceptionally good, 2 nights a week isn't much to progress. Just farming out SoO takes out one of those nights.

15% short on H Norushen seems odd for a guild that would have the DPS to kill Garrosh. Are you 2 healing it? Sounds like you're close on Immersius though, the first 2 splits are the toughest. After that it's usually a kill if everyone's alive.

[Zantos]

Switching can help morale, but an hour and move on is overkill. Sometimes certain heroics a group will have an easier time with. For example my group struggled some with H Sha, due to raid comp.

Though I think if you really want to progress heroics, a more dedicated team might be better for you. Unless the RL and players are exceptionally good, 2 nights a week isn't much to progress. Just farming out SoO takes out one of those nights.

15% short on H Norushen seems odd for a guild that would have the DPS to kill Garrosh. Are you 2 healing it? Sounds like you're close on Immersius though, the first 2 splits are the toughest. After that it's usually a kill if everyone's alive.

We are three healing everything. They are being dumb about that too insisting that the heroic guilds who two healed it were heroic geared before two healing it. We Were on Immersius for an hour and a half. We didn't even spend an hour on the other two heroic bosses we tried. We did 2-3 attempts and then that was it. I know switching can help morale, but when we are making steady progress it doesn't seem like a good idea.

[Orcindauh]

You guys basically have Immersues down imo. If everyone is alive after the 2-3 first splits then your strat is fine and it just comes down to staying awake long enough to not screw up.

[Radio]

They are being dumb about that too insisting that the heroic guilds who two healed it were heroic geared before two healing it.

Yeahhhhh no.

But anyway, learning heroic fights should be done one by one:
- your raiders are having to learn multiple fights at once, which will strain their attention when going for a kill
- you've done the fights on normal, so doing the tourist-y heroic hopping is worthless, the raiders already know the flavour of the fights
- each time you add a heroic kill, you gain a new source of heroic loot every week, which contributes to learning new fights

Tell your raid leader that they have commitment issues and to learn to finish what they start.

[Sonnillon]

Unless your raid morale is going down due to wiping too much on one boss, switching bosses like that is nonsense and your raid leader should start listening. I think I know why he makes the try the heroic bosses - to find out which boss to go next and which is easier. Hence the try this, that and third thing and move on.

However being a raid leader myself I find this just your raid leader being ignorant. Instead of trying themselves, few minutes browsing various comments on bosses will give a nice overview what your people can handle/can do. On top of everything it is hard for your raiders to know/learn/remember tactics for n-bosses which you try on a certain night and ofc you fail cause of that. 2-3 attempts doesn't give any clear overview to anyone not to raider nor to raid leader and on top it is waste of your valuable raiding time = tactic explanation on each boss + wiping + tactic explanation on next boss etc.

I've kept our raid on Shaman progression, cause people die to so silly things and there is no point in moving forward unless people manage to move from basic bad stuff and using CDs properly before moving on to something else. And well no one complains much, they all improve and do better next time

Your RL is probably a stubborn one, so unless he comes to the conclusion himself that sticking to one boss is good thing nothing changes or more people will complain/leave due to that. If he feels that the opinion of others is not for him... Then you cannot do nothing about it. If the guild has grown to your heart then just bare with it and do as your told.

[Shelly]

Play this song for him and edit in "Raid Leader" everywhere they say "Parents."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW3PFC86UNI

[khatsoo]

2-3 attempts in a new heroic boss and moving on is wasting your time.
Just face-smash against them one by one and you should be fine by now with your ilvl.
Also as people say, Immerseus seems like almost down. The begining is the worst, use all your big shit there.
Good luck!

[Senen]

You guys basically have Immersues down imo. If everyone is alive after the 2-3 first splits then your strat is fine and it just comes down to staying awake long enough to not screw up.

I've seen it a lot but I don't agree with that statement, not in 10-man.
There are two hard parts on Immerseus, managing the first p1 and managing the last p2. It may be down to my group, but the few last p2 we usually take A LOT of raid damage due to no healer not able to heal ~15 slimes and we had quite some wipes where we just lost too many people because of these raid damage.

I, for myself, like to give 1-2 trys on a boss even if we are progressing on another, just to get an idea of which boss we'll do next. Like, while progressing on Immerseus HM, during a farm night we pulled Protectors and Galakras once or twice, not to get a kill but to know exactly what to expect and what to look for before we start progressing on them.
Like, sunday we're progressing on Galakras, so yesterday instead of killing Sha N and having 1-2 tries on Galakras, we gave 1-2 tries on Sha HM and killed it in NM. That way, my raiders have experienced the pacman phase and watching a video on it will be far more valuable now, imo.

Anyway, in you case it seems like your RL just jump from one boss to another without giving you time to progress, which is bad. I always make it clear what boss is our current focus and I try to use spare time when we pull something else. If you don't know what is your current focus and just try all bosses at once, you won't ever kill anything.

[Orcindauh]

I've seen it a lot but I don't agree with that statement, not in 10-man.
There are two hard parts on Immerseus, managing the first p1 and managing the last p2. It may be down to my group, but the few last p2 we usually take A LOT of raid damage due to no healer not able to heal ~15 slimes and we had quite some wipes where we just lost too many people because of these raid damage.

I guess it's different for every group. On 10man Majority of my progression wipes were before the 3rd split. Once that part was nailed the boss basically fell over. Most of the problems we had occurred in phase 1, death by swirl, too many stacks, etc. didn't have much trouble in p2, guess that's why shorter phase 1s gave the kill.

[Senen]

I guess it's different for every group. On 10man Majority of my progression wipes were before the 3rd split. Once that part was nailed the boss basically fell over.

Well, I still agree that most of the pulls will be for the two first p1.
We didn't wipe that much on the last p2, but I don't think it's "we've reached third p1? We can fall asleep" because there are still something hard near the end of the fight (well, mostly for healers, I guess).

[Deleted]

Think him this thread. he will get the message.

[Bisso]

On the raid leaders side, he might have received some complaints from other players asking for a little change. I've been in guilds where some players had enough for the night after 5 wipes on new content. So basically, it's possible that the raid leader just doesn't want to get some of the group frustrated over wiping on the same boss all night.

Personally, so late in the expansion, I wouldn't waste my time with "trying to keep the moral up by switching boss every 5 minutes". But that's not everyone in WoW.

Talk to your fellow raiders, if they share your opinion, then it's the RL's problem. And as a raid leader, he needs to adapt to the group.

[wrynil]

We are three healing everything. They are being dumb about that too insisting that the heroic guilds who two healed it were heroic geared before two healing it. We Were on Immersius for an hour and a half. We didn't even spend an hour on the other two heroic bosses we tried. We did 2-3 attempts and then that was it. I know switching can help morale, but when we are making steady progress it doesn't seem like a good idea.

Two healed all while it was progression except heroic juggernaut which we 3 healed. 3 healing many of the bosses are simply just having the healers do more overhealing and getting less used to the stress of heroic mode. 3 Healing immerseus is a good idea though.

[Dangg]

Two healed all while it was progression except heroic juggernaut which we 3 healed. 3 healing many of the bosses are simply just having the healers do more overhealing and getting less used to the stress of heroic mode. 3 Healing immerseus is a good idea though.

You didn't 3 heal Shamans and Thok? (I know some do it, but I don't see why at this point)

[Deleted]

Abandon ship.

[Adhemar]

You didn't 3 heal Shamans and Thok? (I know some do it, but I don't see why at this point)

We got our shamans kill with a healer dead before the bloodlust using the 8:2 split. On 10, it's possible for a blood DK to solo Kardriss or for two tanks to two-man Haromm and therefore to single-heal it. I also wouldn't recommend it for progression, but if you have awesome tanks and healers, whatever.

It is not necessary to two-heal anything before spoils.

As for the OP, this seems like a one-sided thread, lacking context or any effort to understand the raid leader's rationale. IMO, Immerseus is the second hardest of the first five heroics (after Sha, which is not to say any of them qualify as hard) and wasting too much time there when you could be kicking over Norushen, Galakras and maybe Protectors with less effort is unwise. There are also people for whom hours spent dying over and over again to the same mechanics is just frustration and counter-productive to learning. If morale drops, their ability to learn goes with it, but moving on to something new might make them start paying attention again.

Every response in this thread, including mine, is an founded on assumptions about a situation you haven't adequately explained (or, probably, understood) and none of it means anything. If you have a problem with your raid or it's leadership, the mature thing to do is work it out with your raid instead of whining about them on a forum. If the rest of the raid agrees with you, it would be impossible for the raid leader to ignore you.