Getting Exasperated with 10m N Garrosh...

[NRL1515]

Hey fellow monks,

I'm the MT and RL of our 2x/week raiding guild, and right now we are STUCK on Garrosh. I'm starting to get pretty frustrated with a couple of our players, because it seems like once phase 3 hits they start tunneling and ignore MCs and spreading for empowered whirling corruption. I'm at my wits end, and have done almost everything short of playing their toons for them; ultimately this fight boils down to personal responsibilty, and people just cannot seem to grasp how to handle mechanics.

Before I make a huge overhaul to our group, I just want to post here and see if there's anything I'm missing from my end of the keyboard - I don't want to go all postal if there's a hole in my gameplay I seem to be missing (you know, living in glass houses and throwing stones and all that jazz...) Otherwise, we're almost up to 80 wipes on this guy, and we've had about 10 attempts where we've gotten him into phase 3 and sub 10% health. Our best try has been 5%, but it's not happening consistently enough for us to be pleased about it. I know we're close; but it's very disheartening to keep wiping.

Is there anything on my side of the screen that I'm missing?
Last night's raid: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-55ls7i8pzu6vrtdu/ (ignore the thok, siegecrafter, and paragons tries obv)
Monday night's: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-07m9spyc9oukad59/ (I ended the evening early due to frustration and low morale)

I included full logs for the whole raid just in case people know something about the other classes and can chime in with their opinions about what needs to improve elsewhere.

For reference, here is our group comp:
MT - Kyoshi (myself) BrM Monk
OT - Krygon Prot Pally (he takes G during p1 and I handle adds)
Heals - Hubbabubble Disc Priest
Heals - Mandarr Resto Druid
Dps: Shadowsprite, Rogue; Hypershark, Frost DK; Provrin, Ele Shaman; Huntrrx, Surv Hunter; Eutopia (GM) Warlock; Cicelina, Frost Mage.

We put G in the middle of the room and have markers set on the outside of the room for the ranged to group up on for desecrates and whirling corruptions; when he gets empowered we try to move more towards one of the sides of the room but people are not doing a great job of placing desecrate near the edges of the room.

Thanks for any help you can provide, I'm getting worn down by this and could use some fresh eyes.

edit: I realize my shuffle uptime could be a little higher, and same with tiger palm buff - Also, last night was the first night I ditched RJW for Xuen to use for help when we get into phase 3...

[Rockets]

Once we were getting to p3 consistently, we finally started getting consistent kills by stopping tank swaps after the first p3 whirl and having me just kite the adds until the kill. That way the DPS only have to pay attention to the MCs and getting out of desecrates, and can otherwise just Patchwerk it. For us, that means that there's enough DPS going into Garrosh that he dies before his tank runs out of cooldowns and falls over from the dot (and then kills everyone else with the explosion).

We had a lot of problems generally with getting DPS to handle the whirl adds properly/quickly, and so in p3 they'd often still be dealing with those when the MCs hit, and then inevitably the MC would pick someone who was out of position because they were dealing with an add and we'd wipe because nobody could find them to interrupt. Taking the whirling adds out of the equation was enough reduction of the chaos that everything else could be taken care of okay.

[NRL1515]

Yes, we do this - I take the adds away from the group. But I bring a lot of dps to the encounter as well, and during those attempts where we've gotten him below 10% health, we end up getting overrun with MCs or too many people die to whirling corruption. I feel like if I can pop Xuen and stick him on Garrosh while I'm kiting, that could help... but that's what this whole thing has come down to. I'm racking my brain trying to figure out what more I can do to help out our group and just get that kill so we can move onto heroics.

We actually have a second group in our guild who is also 13/14 and they raid on the weekends, so we would replace the people who aren't performing up to par in our group with the top performers in the other group on mondays (since they wouldn't be saved at all).

[ryklin]

I finished my book and got bored between classes, this happened in the last 15minutes-
once P3 hits, if people are panicking, just be very good with communication
and this thread might get moved as it's not quite in the right forum, I mean you could be doing better, but you're definitely not what's preventing a kill although pretty much everyone in this game has ways to improve

call out EVERYTHING (sound warnings will help)

-go out for desecrate
-go in for mc
-go out for whirl+adds
-and call out if you're gonna interrupt someone so you don't waste any/many (blood elf racial is really good on this fight in normal and heroic, so make use of it if you have any)

other than that-
wipe 1: healer issue, dk (through AMS) and shammy die to whirl, tank dies to dmg, other people die in other whirls
wipe 2: healer issue, lock and dk die (lock had diseases on him, doesn't help, but priest should've dispelled it)
wipe 3: hunter+shaman+monk stand in annihilate and die, stopped heals and wiped
wipe 4: add issue, eats warlock, warlock doesn't get battle rezzed (drood/hunter issue), diseases on drood, failed to heal though, drood didn't pop barkskin, and didn't get dispelled
5: priest stands in annihilate, lock stands in desecrate, dots killing people after mcs, whirls not healed through, everything went wrong here
6: only 8 people died, I guess there was a reason you wanted to reset the fight (or healers just failed to heal through annihilate)
7: dk stands in annihilate, pally tank light's hammer gets add all over him and he dies from no heals, pally tank heals tend to get a lot of aggro (especially on top of their single target aoe moves), by the time empowered whirls are coming out he might want to turn off righteous fury and then put it back on for the transmissions
8: shammy eats annihilate, pally tank no healed and dies to a single add with 1 or 2 stacks 5 seconds after garrosh is taunted off him (TONS OF TIME TO GET HIM UP), wiped it in whirl
9: isn't 12min his enrage timer? also mind controls

day2-
1: whirl healing, pally tank dies
2: whirl healing, transition phase add fucks pally (priest d/c?)
3: pally eats annihilate, whirl healing
4: adds, mc, whirl, everything that can go wrong does
5: annihilate healing, drood eats annihilate
6: dk stands in ironstar, later on, add gets big and eats him, pally dies
7: mind controls

pally tank-
I'd recommend checking out what your pally tank is doing, but others should help with that, I'm not really qualified to say much more on prot, but you may want the pally forums to check his cd usage and other factors. I also believe he's supposed to be using seal of insight. Also, based on the healing from his EF, he's probably using it while he doesn't have much vengeance, he should be trying to get a really strong one by abusing vengeance while getting smacked rather than while he doesnt need much healing because he doesn't have the boss.

also, you had 2 wipes to mind controls (your post suggests something much worse, your biggest issue is healing)-
and there are a lot of ways to improve on this (for your 2 heals in general)

healing cd rotation-
it takes garrosh about 3.5-4 min to do a p2 and a 1 minute transition phase, but this gives some extra time on cooldowns as they're much easier to make more healing out of than trying to heal through them regularly

handle this with a set up of healing+defensive raid cooldowns an example I can think of for your comp (maybe toss in a pally hammer whenever it's up) since it's almost identical to my own group other than dk instead of a warrior

I'd recommend-
annihilate phase-
nature's vigil
barrier
avert harm (?)

whirl 1-
spirit shell
devo aura
ancestral guidance

whirl 2-
nature's vigil
tranquility
AMZ

whirl 3-
spirit shell
healing tide totem
smoke bomb

priest-
this guy almost never spirit shells, he should be doing it a bit before 2/3 whirls start, makes them completely trivial to heal through (absorb about 250k-400k dmg on every raid member) just by pressing spirit shell and casting 4 prayers of healing
very few usages overall of any abilities with cooldowns at all other than penance and holy fire
if healing continues to be an issue, have him take halo, it's stronger for the way you're doing the fight anyways (it's up for every whirl)
should try to dispel dk diseases (since the only people that can are tanks) on people after mind controls are broken

druid-
-he needs to be innervating as soon as possible (the first time he hits 200-230k mana and then on cooldown afterwards)
-HotW is ok, but I don't like it here because you'll only have the big healing buff for 1 emp whirl per fight (NV cd just times for it better)
-he should have bark skin up on EVERY whirl
-sotf is ok here (although I don't prefer it) but he's not even using it
-he refuses (?) to use direct heals, very few to no usages of 2p set bonus, mushroom bloom, clearcasting procs, nature's swiftness, and swiftmend or even just hard casts of regrowth and healing touch which could've saved many deaths/wipes and a lot of mana as we get procs that make a fair deal of these free, he's kind of playing like it's still wotlk resto druid
-nourish is kind of a waste of mana, it's better to just refresh lifebloom with lifebloom, because 6k mana and 2seconds for a 60k heal is a joke ( a lot of it is overhealing anyways, he's better off just sitting still and getting more mana back

and make sure healers are focusing on keeping tanks up before others when nobody else will be tanking damage soon,sometimes it seems like they're more worried about getting dps hp bars up after whirl's over than healing the tank that could be taking a 400k hit from garrosh

other general advice: try to reduce dps padding in P1, and rely on typhoon/thunderstorm
sometimes (depending on the spell) dots aren't worth being used on mc targets (living bomb)
dk may want to consider stepping away from the boss during whirls, even with ams, he is taking a beating, and your healers are having trouble and he just doesn't have as powerful of defensive abilities as your other melee

[Art3x]

Your dps is very low. 560+ and 3 people doing way under 200k isn't going to cut it.

I will try to look at the logs a little and see what else jumps out.

[NRL1515]

...and this thread might get moved as it's not quite in the right forum, I mean you could be doing better, but you're definitely not what's preventing a kill although pretty much everyone in this game has ways to improve

I appreciate the sentiment; I linked the full logs JUST IN CASE people (like yourself) were willing and able to comment on the other members but was mainly concerned about making any marked improvements in my play first before I start to replace people due to various reasons.

Thank you for your input, and I do plan on going into the various forums once I get a handle on who isn't quite pulling as much of their weight as other people in our group...

annihilate phase-
nature's vigil
barrier
avert harm (?)

I remind people during this phase to try and stack as near to garrosh's feet as possible so that avert harm can cover as many people as possible. I specifically ignore the bubbles (due to my self heals and guards) so that other people have a better chance at grabbing the buff.

[Shamanberry]

Yes, we do this - I take the adds away from the group. But I bring a lot of dps to the encounter as well, and during those attempts where we've gotten him below 10% health, we end up getting overrun with MCs or too many people die to whirling corruption. I feel like if I can pop Xuen and stick him on Garrosh while I'm kiting, that could help... but that's what this whole thing has come down to. I'm racking my brain trying to figure out what more I can do to help out our group and just get that kill so we can move onto heroics.

We actually have a second group in our guild who is also 13/14 and they raid on the weekends, so we would replace the people who aren't performing up to par in our group with the top performers in the other group on mondays (since they wouldn't be saved at all).

Your personal DPS is helpful, but if you're kiting adds, that means everyone else can focus on the boss instead of having to switch targets, which is a huge raid DPS boost, which is all that really matters.

Ryklin's writeup is good, but just to reiterate and add a few points -
It sounds like your main problem is people not handling mechanics correctly. Garrosh isn't really a "Personal Responsibility" fight (any more than any fight is), but it's a fight about sticking to the plan. Wiping to MCs is unacceptable, because it means somebody didn't switch targets like they were supposed to. Dropping weapons in the right place is a matter of forewarning. It's great if everyone watches their own timers and knows exactly what to do, but it makes things significantly easier if you have someone calling things out. Even top guilds where players will presumably all know what they're doing have people calling attention to important things that are coming up. You shouldn't have too much to watch for as a tank - set your BigWigs to beep at you when the other tank has high stacks of the debuff, color your bars different colors so you know which one is which at a glance - whatever you have to do, set it up such that you can tell people what ability is going to be coming next at least 5 sec before it happens so they know where they need to be. If you say "weapon in 5", it should give ranged plenty of time to get out to where they're supposed to be, even if they were paying attention to something else before you said it. If they know that there's going to be an MC right after the weapon, they can run directly from the spot they drop the weapon to the boss (or the other mark) so they'll be in the right spot to get broken out. And so on.

Phase 3, it sounds like people just need to calm down and keep doing mechanics. If the only mechanic they have to do is MC because you're kiting, the problem is likely positioning. What tends to happen is once they can't kill weapons, ranged end up scattering, someone puts a weapon in between the boss and some of the raid, MC happens 3 seconds after the weapon, and one or more of them is out in BFE, so they get casts off, and the raid wipes. To counter that, have a plan for where you're going to kite the boss. Mark one of your ranged that knows what they're doing, and tell the other ranged to stack on them so that weapons go in the right place and everybody is sticking together for when MCs happen.

[NRL1515]

Phase 3, it sounds like people just need to calm down and keep doing mechanics. If the only mechanic they have to do is MC because you're kiting, the problem is likely positioning. What tends to happen is once they can't kill weapons, ranged end up scattering, someone puts a weapon in between the boss and some of the raid, MC happens 3 seconds after the weapon, and one or more of them is out in BFE, so they get casts off, and the raid wipes. To counter that, have a plan for where you're going to kite the boss. Mark one of your ranged that knows what they're doing, and tell the other ranged to stack on them so that weapons go in the right place and everybody is sticking together for when MCs happen.

You must be watching our raids through a secret camera somewhere...

Honestly, everything you've said we have a plan in place for that. We have someone calling out when major abilities are incoming, and we have markers set up (on the ground and on people) as general gathering points or drops points for desecrate, yet people start to freak out and fail to handle mechanics properly. And when people can't handle mechanics properly, we try to change the strategy to make it easier for whatever it is that is failing to be accomplished.

I appreciate the input. Thanks.

[Lessthanzer0]

Your dps is very low. 560+ and 3 people doing way under 200k isn't going to cut it.

its not impossible to do it with this dps. its just tougher. dealing with 3 intermissions and more EWCs makes it hard. one thing that helped my group is we switched to a strat where we only kill weapons in phase one. on one of your longest attempts your raid did about 47mil damage to weapons alone. more than half of that is done in phase 2. thats a decent amount of damage that could be focused on garrosh to push the phase faster. i checked the logs for one of my raid's attempt and our weapon damage was just under 20mil. the other benefit of not killing the weapons is that it gets your ranged and healers used to running out to drop them against the wall so when phase 3 hits they know what to do because they did the same thing in phase 2. i know its tough to change strategy after so many attempts but sometimes its needed. higher dps will always help because on the attempts that you reach phase 3 you are getting 5 empowered whirling corruptions. while its not impossible, its gunna be tough and having 2 in phase 3 means there are a lot of adds for you to pick up. you're goal should be to have 2 or 3 at the most. my raid doesn't out gear you by much, we average around 565. we only get 2 EWC, one in phase 2 and one in phase 3. it all comes down to how well people optimize their dps on the boss to push the phases. the only phase thats not a huge race is phase 1.

as for things like people dying from annihilate, thats so trivial that they just need to pay attention. if they need to interrupt a cast to dodge annihilate then they should. having them risk trying to get that one extra cast off isn't doing the raid any good if they misjudge it and die. when it comes to mind controls the entire raid needs be stacked in melee. one person out in the middle of nowhere can wipe you. make sure interrupts are coordinated so multiple people don't all use theirs at the same time cause then your screwed. if everyone switches fast enough the mind controls go down super fast and you should only need 1-2 interrupts on each add. also make sure that no one is dotting or spreading diseases on the mind controls. its unnecessary damage that has to be healed through or dispelled. its one less thing to worry about if people don't do it at all though.

if you wanna check out my raid's start its in this post...
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post24717133

the only thing that has changed since i wrote that is a little bit in phase 3. instead of having everyone stack and drop the first weapon on the raid and then move together, i have the ranged and healers stand on the marker from phase 1 (the one on the right when you're facing the throne). they move there during the transition right before we pop lust. after they drop the weapon on the marker, they run into the center of the room with melee for the first empowered mind controls. then they spread out to the left side of the room for EWC. off tank picks up adds, they all stay at max range near a wall until the weapon hits and then run back to the center for empowered mind controls again. usually the boss is either dead or just about to die at this point.

[Radio]

I've found over the course of a number of flex groups / our first normal kill that people get very kill-hungry on Garrosh when he hits p3, which causes most avoidable wipes. It seems to be because of the relatively low amount of health he has left and the whole 'OMG BURN' mentality. Just have to demand that your raid still pay full attention before the attempt and as p3 starts.

[Art3x]

@marcackermann I was more alluding to the fact they have raid members severely underperforming their ilvl.

[Sonrisa]

The only thing I can say is that your disc is doing something wrong, he should be destroing the druid on the meters on that fight but he is pretty much even or losing on most attempts. The damage is both super predictable and very low outside the predictable moments, he can literally Spirit Shell for every whirlwind and shield his way to victory. Just looking at one of the attempts he is using it 4 times on a 12 minute fight lmao.

[NRL1515]

Thanks for all the replies; just checking in before I address my raid team - other than strategy tweaks and tiger palm buff and shuffle uptime, is there anything else that I (as a monk tank) need to fix before I start ripping into people? Don't want to seem too hypocritical when that happens...

[Deleted]

Thanks for all the replies; just checking in before I address my raid team - other than strategy tweaks and tiger palm buff and shuffle uptime, is there anything else that I (as a monk tank) need to fix before I start ripping into people? Don't want to seem too hypocritical when that happens...

Speaking as a 13/14 HC tank working on Garrosh, I've tanked progression with monks worse than you. While there are certainly things you could work on and perfect, rest assured that your logs make me cringe less than logs I've seen of supposedly bona fide heroic-tanking monks. Your Frost DK and Shaman also do decently for themselves - there are small things that could be improved, but not major issues.

The worst, yet to be covered, offenders on your team - i.e., those that are currently keeping you from killing the boss, are:

Shadowsprite: Low SnD uptime, Revealing Strike uptime isn't good either. Ask him for a picture of his UI (do this with all of your underperforming raiders, actually) and see whether he's tracking it by any means - WA, TMW, anything. He could probably eke out another 20-30k DPS if he sorted his shit out.

Huntrrx: Doesn't know how to play Survival. This may sound blunt, but it's also a fact. I immediately wondered why Explosive Shot was doing so little of his damage until I realized he has zero - ZERO percent Black Arrow uptime. This is a failing so fundamental it is in fact perfectly analogous to a BrM with 0% Shuffle uptime - it's so bad even the average LFR hunter would probably outperform him with the same gear.

Cicelina: Mage bomb uptime is low. Should be at least 90%, preferably 95%. Seems to be standing around fondling him/herself instead of casting for significant parts of the fight - Living Bomb should not be top damage, especially not with such low uptime on it.

Eutopia: Disgustingly low (50%, at the very least, lower than it ought to be) Immolate uptime, which leads to lowered Ember generation, which leads to fewer CBs, which leads to less damage. Hopefully just a UI issue, but also losing uses of DS:I - uptime is 7% lower than our Warlock had on an equivalently long fight.

And last, but not least, Krygon, your paladin. As a paladin myself, combing through his logs makes me irrationally angry. He is failing fundamentally at his class - to a degree that is almost worse than the degree to which your hunter fails.

1. He's not expertise capped (arguably a matter of choice, but I assure you, Krygon is in no way qualified to make said choice in an informed matter), and he's gemming for socket bonuses. Tell him to gem pure haste in any sockets where he isn't using hybrid gems to get hit or expertise cap. No ifs, no buts, no coconuts. With 200k+ vengeance, secondary stats are all that matter. Strength is useless. I personally use a haste/crit agi neck because all the strength necks I've gotten my hands on have shitty itemization, which should tell you just how worthless strength is at current levels of vengeance.

2. His SotR uptime and EF uptimes are bad - partly because he's doing the rotation wrong. HoPo gains from CS+HotR as compared to gains from J should have a ratio of around 3:2 - his are closer to 1:1, which costs him a lot of HoPo in the long run.

3. And now to the part that makes steam sputter from my ears in cartoonish fashion - he's using Seal of Truth. This is inexcusable to the point of idiocy - almost worse than your hunter never using Black Arrow as Survival. It is the functional equivalent of you tanking in Stance of the Fierce Tiger, and you should slap him silly for not being aware of this himself.

If I caught any player aspiring to raid heroics making mistakes of the sort your hunter and paladin are making, and I were in your position, I would have to consider very strongly whether or not their apparently total lack of effort towards playing properly was deserving of a continued presence in my raids. I believe you should sit down and have a very serious talk with those two players in particular - and I would leave my options open in turns of recruiting replacements if you truly want to do heroics.

[Lavalashlol]

I will say something about you elemental shaman, he should try picking up more haste than he has now. 7k especially for Garrosh, also his Elemental Blast usage is pretty poor, he could use Primal Elementalist and simplify his rotation some also seems like he isn't using CL during intermissions which unless you get the one with the two mini bosses is bad, also he used Earthquake which is terrible as well. I'll run a sim on his character here in a minute and post the charts.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4419&e=4920 his breakdown

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a...s=9844&e=10341 my breakdown

I know there is a gear gap here and I'm much better itemized, but look at the spell usage. He cast the same amount of Lava Bursts as me which is good, but I had 48 more Lightning Bolts than him, which means either he isn't always casting or he is casting the wrong thing. The amount of Fulmination he is a little high so he's probably casting it too early. Overall I did almost 40 million more damage to Garrosh, and a 6ilvl difference wouldn't make up 40m. He seems to be doing a lot of damage to desecrated weapons, but y'all have better classes to switch to them than Ele Shamans. Have him stop by the Shaman forums and ask some questions, we are more than happy to help.

[NRL1515]

@Flavius: I truly appreciate the time you took to look through our logs and spot all those issues; I had no idea it was that bad for some of our members. I mean, I had a feeling that we had a few people who were under-performing - I didn't realize it was that extensive. Our paladin has been a solid member for our team the entire expansion, and I am confident he can easily make changes and adjust rapidly. I'll talk to the hunter as well and see if we can straighten things out a bit.

This is the kind of honesty and bluntness I appreciate, and will certainly keep your points in mind as I address our group. Thank you again.

@Lavalash: As you could probably see by Flavius' post before yours, we seem to have quite a few people who think they know how to play, yet are getting exposed during this fight. I will certainly pass your thoughts onto him, and plan on posting logs in the various class forums for help. Thank you.

[heyitsqi]

Speaking as a 13/14 HC tank working on Garrosh, I've tanked progression with monks worse than you. While there are certainly things you could work on and perfect, rest assured that your logs make me cringe less than logs I've seen of supposedly bona fide heroic-tanking monks. Your Frost DK and Shaman also do decently for themselves - there are small things that could be improved, but not major issues.

The worst, yet to be covered, offenders on your team - i.e., those that are currently keeping you from killing the boss, are:

Shadowsprite: Low SnD uptime, Revealing Strike uptime isn't good either. Ask him for a picture of his UI (do this with all of your underperforming raiders, actually) and see whether he's tracking it by any means - WA, TMW, anything. He could probably eke out another 20-30k DPS if he sorted his shit out.

Huntrrx: Doesn't know how to play Survival. This may sound blunt, but it's also a fact. I immediately wondered why Explosive Shot was doing so little of his damage until I realized he has zero - ZERO percent Black Arrow uptime. This is a failing so fundamental it is in fact perfectly analogous to a BrM with 0% Shuffle uptime - it's so bad even the average LFR hunter would probably outperform him with the same gear.

Cicelina: Mage bomb uptime is low. Should be at least 90%, preferably 95%. Seems to be standing around fondling him/herself instead of casting for significant parts of the fight - Living Bomb should not be top damage, especially not with such low uptime on it.

Eutopia: Disgustingly low (50%, at the very least, lower than it ought to be) Immolate uptime, which leads to lowered Ember generation, which leads to fewer CBs, which leads to less damage. Hopefully just a UI issue, but also losing uses of DS:I - uptime is 7% lower than our Warlock had on an equivalently long fight.

And last, but not least, Krygon, your paladin. As a paladin myself, combing through his logs makes me irrationally angry. He is failing fundamentally at his class - to a degree that is almost worse than the degree to which your hunter fails.

1. He's not expertise capped (arguably a matter of choice, but I assure you, Krygon is in no way qualified to make said choice in an informed matter), and he's gemming for socket bonuses. Tell him to gem pure haste in any sockets where he isn't using hybrid gems to get hit or expertise cap. No ifs, no buts, no coconuts. With 200k+ vengeance, secondary stats are all that matter. Strength is useless. I personally use a haste/crit agi neck because all the strength necks I've gotten my hands on have shitty itemization, which should tell you just how worthless strength is at current levels of vengeance.

2. His SotR uptime and EF uptimes are bad - partly because he's doing the rotation wrong. HoPo gains from CS+HotR as compared to gains from J should have a ratio of around 3:2 - his are closer to 1:1, which costs him a lot of HoPo in the long run.

3. And now to the part that makes steam sputter from my ears in cartoonish fashion - he's using Seal of Truth. This is inexcusable to the point of idiocy - almost worse than your hunter never using Black Arrow as Survival. It is the functional equivalent of you tanking in Stance of the Fierce Tiger, and you should slap him silly for not being aware of this himself.

If I caught any player aspiring to raid heroics making mistakes of the sort your hunter and paladin are making, and I were in your position, I would have to consider very strongly whether or not their apparently total lack of effort towards playing properly was deserving of a continued presence in my raids. I believe you should sit down and have a very serious talk with those two players in particular - and I would leave my options open in turns of recruiting replacements if you truly want to do heroics.

You. I like you.

[Systam]

Yea. I think most is covered. Just gotta back up on Cecelina. I just hit 561 ilvl last night on my Frost mage and I do an average of 240-250k/fight and I'm still derping on uptime!

[-Zo-]

Wow, really great reply from Flavius.

I'd just like to echo that we also had MC trouble, and the only way we got around it was continued practice and instilling on every player (mostly dps) that you couldn't just expect the other guy to do it, everyone had to help.

We also 2 healed and everyone was > 200k dps, so that helped by making the phases quicker. On our kill I was dps'ing (WW) and the disc priest killed me while I was MC'd. That was fun, so maybe make sure they don't go TOO crazy on those MC's ;-)

[Muffinz]

I understand I run 25m, but it's still a basic concept for how I was running 10m as a monk tank, and how my group was handling stuff. You can see our replay view on warcraftlogs, and see how we handle phase 2 with desecrates and how people stack etc. Also take note of when I pop my cooldowns to bump my DPS up a bit as monk tank.

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/mjgtbG74LqF68CxD

I don't have time right now to pour over logs, but I can look at them tomorrow. It looks like a lot of thought has been put into it by other players already though, so I'll leave that to them.