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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    So four rejuvs more on a 6 minute fight is not as tiny an increase as you make it sound...
    Well, those four rejuvs do come with the added catch of you only being able to cast them during free GCDs, i.e. not during periods of intense damage. 12k spirit is more than enough to fill every GCD during burst phases, so the extra spirit goes into additional rejuvenation casts during slower periods. The extra spirit won't get you additional rejuvenations when you really need the extra healing: it'll give you extra healing when you kind of don't.

    It does depend a bit on the fight, but virtually every fight in SoO either consists of repeated cycles of very high and very low damage (Juggernaut, Thok, Garrosh) where you have plenty of time to regenerate mana between burst phases anyway, or very steady damage with the occasional predictable spike (protectors, Sha, shamans, Nazgrim, Malkorok) where you usually know exactly how long you have to heal people back up. Both types of fight favor low spirit/high mastery builds.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  2. #42
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    It does depend a bit on the fight, but virtually every fight in SoO either consists of repeated cycles of very high and very low damage (Juggernaut, Thok, Garrosh) where you have plenty of time to regenerate mana between burst phases anyway, or very steady damage with the occasional predictable spike (protectors, Sha, shamans, Nazgrim, Malkorok) where you usually know exactly how long you have to heal people back up. Both types of fight favor low spirit/high mastery builds.
    That requires that people don't get hit by avoidable stuff in between the high damgae phases, which isn't happening.

  3. #43
    started out a bit low after getting the 13k haste breakpoint, was probably around 10-12k, so as soon as I got better gear I aimed for 17k as the roof to reach, which I reached quite quickly after getting rid of some old tier/timeless pieces for hc pieces. then reforged to 14.5k felt like the correct amount for me and just watched my mastery grow higher and higher.

  4. #44
    I run with 6k spirit on my 6/14 heroic alt with nazgrim and sha trinkets, and i don't see the need to go above that. Very rarely, if ever, do i get close to OOM, and can easily sustain 250k+ HPS on heroic malkorok (yes, we are going malkorok instead of juggernaut, our RL is afraid of 2-healing juggernaut).

    I decided to go that route when i read, on this forums if memory serves me right, that 400 spirit allows you to cast 1 extra rejuvenation every 3 minutes, while 400 mastery gives you roughly 1% more healing total, and since 1 rejuvenation every 3 minutes is less than 1% of all my healing... mastery all the way.

    Here is my armory, should someone want to check. http://eu.battle.net/wow/es/characte...%C3%AFe/simple. As usual any constructive criticism is greatly appreciated. I'm currently debating spirit vs crit. As in "haste (to breakpoint) > mastery > spirit > crit > excess haste" vs "haste (to breakpoint) > mastery > crit > spirit > excess haste"

    EDIT: Also, balance chest is NOT an error, resto tier has spirit on it, and 4p is no that great (also no way in hell i'm NOT using norushen gloves OR shaman's helm, might swap to sha's helm if i decide that spirit > crit)
    Last edited by Inthislzon; 2014-02-22 at 09:51 AM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Wir View Post
    That requires that people don't get hit by avoidable stuff in between the high damgae phases, which isn't happening.
    There's always some damage in the low damage phases, but Efflorescence, Lifebloom, Ysera's Gift, Sage Mender procs, clearcasting procs, Wild Growths and Rejuvs cast during meta gem procs and cloak procs redistributing all of the above are usually enough to deal with it. I guess I should point out again that the low spirit/high mastery gearing results in more total healing done, so the main reason you need all that spirit is because you have all that spirit. If you reforge some of it into mastery, you won't actually have to top people off during low damage phases nearly as often (even on heroic fights).

    And again, no one is advocating extremely low spirit, so it's not as if going with a lower amount like 12k is going to result in you not being able to cast Rejuvenation at all during the slow phases. We're talking a difference of a dozen casts at the very most. And even that only applies if you end a fight at zero mana. Any pull where you don't actually go OOM, your spirit gave you exactly zero extra casts of Rejuvenation.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Inthislzon View Post
    I run with 6k spirit on my 6/14 heroic alt with nazgrim and sha trinkets, and i don't see the need to go above that. Very rarely, if ever, do i get close to OOM, and can easily sustain 250k+ HPS on heroic malkorok (yes, we are going malkorok instead of juggernaut, our RL is afraid of 2-healing juggernaut).

    I decided to go that route when i read, on this forums if memory serves me right, that 400 spirit allows you to cast 1 extra rejuvenation every 3 minutes, while 400 mastery gives you roughly 1% more healing total, and since 1 rejuvenation every 3 minutes is less than 1% of all my healing... mastery all the way.

    Here is my armory, should someone want to check. http://eu.battle.net/wow/es/characte...%C3%AFe/simple. As usual any constructive criticism is greatly appreciated. I'm currently debating spirit vs crit. As in "haste (to breakpoint) > mastery > spirit > crit > excess haste" vs "haste (to breakpoint) > mastery > crit > spirit > excess haste"

    EDIT: Also, balance chest is NOT an error, resto tier has spirit on it, and 4p is no that great (also no way in hell i'm NOT using norushen gloves OR shaman's helm, might swap to sha's helm if i decide that spirit > crit)
    while 6k spirit might sustain you during clearing, it doesn't seem to help you all that much during progress, I can easily go oom with 17k spirit during progress due to rather keeping my teammates up than my mana bar, which is most important, also excess spirit might not give you extra healing, but due to innervating your teammate who supposedly goes oom or can manage some extra mana in a better way than resto druids. the extra spirit keeps your team alive....


    hps during malkorok doesn't really mean anything, the most important thing is to always keep a green shield on tanks, fill up shields to soakers, and why the fuck are you skipping shamans, it's easier than both malkorok and juggernaught, especially for 2 healing. Also juggernaught might be tricky with 2 healers, but saves you an extra phase.

    Your math has heavy flaws too, 1% mastery is 480 points so you get 1.2 rejuvs every 3 minutes, also 1% mastery is an overall throughput increase of ~0.7%, not 1%.
    Also how the fuck do you expect to survive thok with 6k spirit.

    it also makes any mistake either you or your teammates much more fatal, if people suddenly take 300k unintentional damage, and you cast a regrowth or something like that you are much closer to going oom. Also if your other healer dies it's going to be a wipe very soon.


    to OP:
    best way to test your mana is to try it out at mana heavy fights like Iron juggernaught, thok, norushen constant healing (see how far you can heal through the stacks.)

    LFR also works with fights like protectors, norushen, malkorok and garrosh
    or solo healing flex 10-14 people

    also quite a good fight to solo heal would be garrosh this way you can see how good you are doing with the mana you have instead of relying on the other healer.
    Last edited by theburned; 2014-02-22 at 11:17 AM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    while 6k spirit might sustain you during clearing, it doesn't seem to help you all that much during progress, I can easily go oom with 17k spirit during progress due to rather keeping my teammates up than my mana bar, which is most important, also excess spirit might not give you extra healing, but due to innervating your teammate who supposedly goes oom or can manage some extra mana in a better way than resto druids. the extra spirit keeps your team alive....
    I usually innervate the other healer, as even with 17k spirit (being a disc priest) is constantly OOM. Not sure what she is doing but... well, i don't need to innervate myself most of the time, so i'm fine giving it away

    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    hps during malkorok doesn't really mean anything, the most important thing is to always keep a green shield on tanks, fill up shields to soakers, and why the fuck are you skipping shamans, it's easier than both malkorok and juggernaught, especially for 2 healing. Also juggernaught might be tricky with 2 healers, but saves you an extra phase.
    I'm fully aware it's not, it's just a number i have recent on my head, as we were wiping yesterday due to people not soaking pools 9 times out of 10, so that was not a healing issue. Out of ~30 wipes, maybe one was due to a healing issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    Your math has heavy flaws too, 1% mastery is 480 points so you get 1.2 rejuvs every 3 minutes, also 1% mastery is an overall throughput increase of ~0.7%, not 1%.
    Didn't do the math myself, just saw it somewhere. From http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ruid-Guide-5-4 , that quoted EJ, under the Spirit section, i'll quote again.

    From EJ: Over the course of a 3-minute period, you get to cast one extra Rejuv (9600 mana) for roughly every 480 Spirit added. Putting those 480 into Mastery instead would make all your heals 1% stronger.
    Rough estimation is rough, for sure. But 1 rejuv every 3 minutes doesn't come even close to 1% of my total healing. If it were 2 rejuvs every 3 minutes vs 1% of my healing... that would be debatable, but i feel it wouldn't change a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    Also how the fuck do you expect to survive thok with 6k spirit.

    it also makes any mistake either you or your teammates much more fatal, if people suddenly take 300k unintentional damage, and you cast a regrowth or something like that you are much closer to going oom. Also if your other healer dies it's going to be a wipe very soon.
    Here is a screenshot from a couple weeks ago on normal thok http://i.imgur.com/HHtUX6x.jpg Didn't had leg cloack still (8/12 on runestones) and got some other upgrades too (heroic chest being one of them). That was a 3-healed pull up to 27 stacks, i innervated self just after taking that screenshot and was at ~90% mana when kiting phase finished. I know my HPS number doesn't show (i'm obviously the druid there XD) but it doesn't really matter. I'm almost outhealing the other 2 healers combined. Should we wipe on thok due to a lack of healing surely it won't be MY healing.

    Also solo healed N: garrosh that same day with no issues at all. A boomkin popped hotw and healed during hope intermission but well, LoS issues are not fixed with spirit XD
    Last edited by Inthislzon; 2014-02-22 at 12:01 PM.

  8. #48
    Deleted
    The fact that you can "easily go oom with 17k spirit" should tell you more about how large effect spirit has on your available mana, rather than how it keeps your team alive. If you were all-out mastery, innervated yourself you might be able to keep your team alive much better and your co-healer wouldn't need an innervate. I 2-healed every hc boss in SoO this week with a monk, with less than 10k spirit on me and I was fine on everything else than protectors, where one of the bosses healed and the fight was extended. And even still, we killed the boss on that pull. Now If I was sitting on 17k spirit, that would mean I would have 7k-7.5k less mastery, which would amount to a massive 15% decrease in my mastery %. Would my raid survive the Garrosh annihilates and whirls better with that, no I doubt they would. Or the big adds on spoils? hardly. As illustrated in the article by hamlet, with 12k spirit, it only accounts for less than 30% of your total available mana on a 6 minute fight. That is not a large percentage.

    Also, just because you go oom on a fight with less than 17k spirit, it doesn't mean that anything is wrong with your gear setup, and you need to quickly revert your reforges. Sure, you most likely would have been able to spend mana much more efficiently during the fight and not oom yet, but disregarding that, still it might mean you got this far because of your good throughput, and people would have died earlier otherwise. It's most certaily better to die later than earlier. And OOMing doesn't mean healing stops, /afk. You still regenerate mana at a steady pace, and when your meta procs or clearcasting triggers, you need to make the most of em. Is tranquility coming off CD soon? Make sure you have enough mana to cast it at the correct time, and hey, your doing pretty good HPS even while oom.

    And don't forget your raid groups' mana cooldowns and be sure to ask for them as soon as there's room in the mana bar, or a good spot for a shadowpriest to hymn, etc.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Demez View Post
    And don't forget your raid groups' mana cooldowns and be sure to ask for them as soon as there's room in the mana bar, or a good spot for a shadowpriest to hymn, etc.
    mana cooldowns... or any kind of raid cooldowns actually. On my monk's raid we 2-heal juggernaut with no issues, but have a boomkin that HotW-heals the entire phase 2, SP and ele shaman both VE/guidance when P2 starts (before first knockback). That's what enables us to 2-heal with no issues. Use your raid CDs, even a badly timed CD is better than no CD at all

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Wir View Post
    You can find all logs here:
    http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/220956/

    I used 15k spirit on the raid 19-02.

    You can also see how I heal, all first kills are on youtube here:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/riqxtyo...ow=grid&view=0

    And no, it doesn't matter. What matters is I get enough regen. You can't say that 12k spirit is what everyone should have and that it's optimal for everyone.
    Couple issues I have with this before you claim you dropped from 16k down to 15k.

    First issue: You actually only went from 15,660 to 15,000 (according to your logs between last week and this week). When I said give it a fair chance, I didn't mean drop 660 spirit and see how it goes. That's what I call changing one piece of gear, and honestly 660 worth of stats wouldn't even require you to change a gem.

    2nd issue: You are using Dysmorphic and are having mana issues dropping 660 spirit. This leads me to believe that the only reason you noticed a difference at all is because you've convinced yourself that 16k is the magic number you need to heal, and because you didn't have that 16k spirit, you weren't going to be happy.

    I am only illustrating these issues to let you know that you psyched yourself out and that is the only reason you had issues this week with the lower spirit, not because you need more regen to be successful, and not because 16k is optimal for you or your healing style, and not because the advice given was bad advice for you.

    --updated--

    To illustrate this even further, here are a couple lines from your Fallen Protecters fight (this week):
    [20:59:01.775] Rook Stonetoe hits Mopting Parry
    [21:00:14.523] Wirfarm gains Innervate from Wirfarm

    Now the first line is when you first entered combat, the 2nd shows when you used Innervate for the first time. So with 15k spirit, it took you 1 minute and 13 seconds before you were at a point where you needed to cast innervate.

    Now here are the same 2 lines from last week (12-02):
    [21:17:34.776] Rook Stonetoe hits Xuen 372562
    [21:18:48.685] Wirfarm gains Innervate from Wirfarm

    Again, just like this week, first line is when you entered combat, the 2nd shows when you used Innervate for the first time. With 15,660 spirit, it took you 1 minute and 14 seconds before you were at a point where you needed to cast innervate.

    Here is Iron Jug, this week and last:
    [22:17:36.522] Iron Juggernaut hits Zay 183299 (A: 37152)
    [22:18:26.350] Wirfarm gains Innervate from Wirfarm

    Time to innervate this week, 50 seconds.

    [23:05:54.792] Iron Juggernaut hits Nóxx 212783 (A: 48724)
    [23:06:37.800] Wirfarm gains Innervate from Wirfarm

    Time to innervate last week, 43 seconds.

    Honestly I am not sure what more needs to be said.

  11. #51
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    2nd issue: You are using Dysmorphic and are having mana issues dropping 660 spirit. This leads me to believe that the only reason you noticed a difference at all is because you've convinced yourself that 16k is the magic number you need to heal, and because you didn't have that 16k spirit, you weren't going to be happy.
    What's Dysmorphic?

    I'm not arguing that it's all in my head, it can do really strange things.

    When I started doing those bosses on HC I'm sure I had less spirit, but it feels so good with more spirit.

    For some reason I went oom using 15k spirit, but when using more spirit it was fine.

    Maybe it would work if someone reforged the druid without me noticing it.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Wir View Post
    What's Dysmorphic?

    I'm not arguing that it's all in my head, it can do really strange things.

    When I started doing those bosses on HC I'm sure I had less spirit, but it feels so good with more spirit.

    For some reason I went oom using 15k spirit, but when using more spirit it was fine.

    Maybe it would work if someone reforged the druid without me noticing it.
    Dysmorphic is the name of one of your trinkets that gives you a crapton of spirit once a minute or so.

    I JUST edited my post to illustrate your confusion even more clearly, you should read the edits I made. You say you went oom using 15k spirit, but using more you were fine.

    A.) You didn't go oom faster with less spirit. It was essentially the same, you were just paying more attention to your mana bar this week.
    B.) You gave it one day. You cannot possibly expect to get used to doing something different and be able to make a judgement after only trying it for 1 day. Especially a change as insignificant as 660 spirit.

  13. #53
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    Dysmorphic is the name of one of your trinkets that gives you a crapton of spirit once a minute or so.

    I JUST edited my post to illustrate your confusion even more clearly, you should read the edits I made. You say you went oom using 15k spirit, but using more you were fine.

    A.) You didn't go oom faster with less spirit. It was essentially the same, you were just paying more attention to your mana bar this week.
    B.) You gave it one day. You cannot possibly expect to get used to doing something different and be able to make a judgement after only trying it for 1 day. Especially a change as insignificant as 660 spirit.
    Hehe, well... it felt like crap healing with 15k spirit. But I might give it another try, healing with the amount I have now works fine though. Healing isn't an issue on any fights so far. Maybe it will change at Thok.

    Your answers are good, big props to you for being diplomatic and taking your time.

  14. #54
    Wir : First off I normally don't post here I am just a person who reads them. I understand where you are at with the 16k spirit. I went and looked at your armory and noticed Incarnation over Soul of the Forrest. Why? SotF is extremely strong and will help you keep the raid topped off if used correctly. As well I did go and watch some of the videos to the link that you left. It doesn't look like you have anything tracking your LMG. If you add a weakaura/tell me when to track it it will allow you to save even more mana. As well as making use of all your Omen of Clarity procs you will get more procs the higher the up time you have on Lifebloom. I did look at some of the logs and saw relatively low uptime on Lifebloom. Keeping up lifebloom is extremely easy between Sage Mender/Nature's Swiftness/OoC Procs. How often are you blooming your mushroom? Getting more use out of bloom will keep the raid topped off as well.

    As far as the 16k spirit VS 15k spirit do what ever you are more comfortable with. I personally run between 14-15k I could run with less but its my preference. The one way I am able to do that is I use a Spirit food/flask where you use int. Doing this allowed me more haste/mastery while staying where I like for my spirit. I know people will say I am doing it wrong but its what I prefer.

    What I said at the top is easy ways to keep your raid topped off while gaining mastery/haste. For the loss of int in food/flask if you want to stay at the spirit levels.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollingtree View Post
    Doing this allowed me more haste/mastery while staying where I like for my spirit. I know people will say I am doing it wrong but its what I prefer.
    There is no wrong way to heal, you could even go full str gems, and as long as people don't die to unavoidable damage and you are not a burden for the rest of the healing team. As i said earlier, i choose to go with <6k spirit (not a typo, it's less than 6k) due to putting TONS of value on output and seeing my mana bar over 10% at the end of a boss and thinking "there goes free healing down the drain", but that doesn't make my choice better than yours, it's just different. And as long as bosses die and you are not carried your choice is as fine as mine.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollingtree View Post
    As far as the 16k spirit VS 15k spirit do what ever you are more comfortable with.
    Do whatever you're comfortable with, but be aware that having 12-13k spirit will allow you to do more healing than with 16k spirit. High spirit is a bit like using strength gems as a druid: if you really want to use them then do it, but realize that the difference you're seeing is mainly in your head. Using the numbers posted above, you need 1440 spirit to gain enough mana to cast one more Rejuvenation every minute. And it comes at the cost of all of your spells (including that Rejuvenation per minute) healing for 3% less, which was the whole reason why you needed that extra Rejuvenation in the first place.

    If you want to use 20k spirit then go for it. Just don't tell new players that the amount of spirit doesn't matter and that you can go with whatever number you prefer, because that's just not true and it will hinder them more than it helps them.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    Do whatever you're comfortable with, but be aware that having 12-13k spirit will allow you to do more healing than with 16k spirit. High spirit is a bit like using strength gems as a druid: if you really want to use them then do it, but realize that the difference you're seeing is mainly in your head. Using the numbers posted above, you need 1440 spirit to gain enough mana to cast one more Rejuvenation every minute. And it comes at the cost of all of your spells (including that Rejuvenation per minute) healing for 3% less, which was the whole reason why you needed that extra Rejuvenation in the first place.

    If you want to use 20k spirit then go for it. Just don't tell new players that the amount of spirit doesn't matter and that you can go with whatever number you prefer, because that's just not true and it will hinder them more than it helps them.
    The numbers that you are talking are really small, looking at my Garrosh heroic kill I cast 205 rejuvs over the course of the fight using your math dropping 1440 spirit would have led to an increase of healing of 3% (this is incorrect the number would be a little over 2%) at the expense of 13 rejuvs which would amount to 1.3% of my total healing so the delta is about 0.8%. Now everyone knows that a dedicated raider will change a hell of a lot of gems for gains much smaller than that but if you think that your heals hitting for less than 1% less is going to make worlds of difference then in general you are mistaken.

    I have played with both high and low spirit I went with 15k for our Garrosh kill, its an arbitrary number that I picked as it felt balanced if things went to shit I could recover during the slack and it meant that we could pump our mana cooldowns into the 2 disc priests, I could probably have dropped 1 or 2k without it causing me huge problems at the same time if I had picked up another k I doubt I would have seen much difference in my healing. In previous posts you, or others, talk about being GCD capped as being the limiting factors what I can say is that on progress when cutting healers to meet dps checks those periods where you need to be casting every GCD get larger and that is when you need that little extra bit of regen to see you to the other side.

    In your last post you are saying 'Just don't tell new players that the amount of spirit doesn't matter and that you can go with whatever number you prefer, because that's just not true and it will hinder them more than it helps them' I would counter that you are probably confusing them with this running argument.

    If you are a new player and not at the bleeding edge of content then don't worry about the small differences in theoretical throughput, find something that works for yourself but feel free to swap things around and see if it works better. If you are at the bleeding edge of content than this discussion is moot, chances are you know better what works for you than anyone else does.

  18. #58
    I assume you people who are talking about miniscule changes as a reason to keep higher spirit are going into your fights with a well fed buff? If so, I gotta ask, whats the point? Its only 300 of your primary stat. The whole point of people coming to these forums isn't to get your druid to the point where it is "good enough". You don't use askmrrobot to get a reforge/regem that's "Guaranteed Almost Optimal". So why would you use a 0.8% healing increase as a reason NOT to change? Any increase in your healing, however small, is an increase in your healing. Regardless if you agree with it or not, this is what these forums are for. People come here and ask "Whats the best way to gear my druid?" If you answer with anything but that - you're doing it wrong.

  19. #59
    Did you read what I posted or just cherry picked what you wanted? I was making an example of how small the difference is, you could argue that any amount of spirit is too much if you play out that throughput stats will provide more healing than regen stats but we all agree that some spirit is needed to heal with, how much that number is people disagree on. At the moment people could read the druid forums and think that if they have less than 17k spirit they are doing it wrong and conversely if they have more than 12k they are also doing it wrong.

    Right now if a new player reads through this thread they are going to get nowhere because someone is going to say that they are doing it wrong regardless of what they do, I was trying to put the difference of numbers in context so people could make a decision themselves without thinking that they are doing things terribly.

    What changes could I make to my character that you can guarantee will show an overall increase in healing, how much would this increase be and how can I monitor that the theoretical increase leads to an ingame increase?

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...orous/advanced

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Migraine View Post
    Now everyone knows that a dedicated raider will change a hell of a lot of gems for gains much smaller than that but if you think that your heals hitting for less than 1% less is going to make worlds of difference then in general you are mistaken.
    It's not going to make worlds of difference, but it does make a difference. Hence the comparison with strength gems. You'd see similar differences if you replaced all your gems with strength gems. The difference will be small enough that you probably won't wipe because of it. And if you really want to use strength gems then go ahead and do it. But know that using strength gems is worse and that you might wipe because of it, and that telling people that strength gems are a matter of personal preference is doing more harm than good.

    It's exactly when you are a new player that those little things matter. If you're going to go through the effort of getting gems and reforging your gear, it would be rather silly to not gem and reforge to the best possible stats. Either do it properly (i.e. aim for 12-13k spirit) or save yourself the trouble and just leave the sockets empty.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

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