Garry 10h nerfs inc

[Count Zero]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...54?page=13#260

Reduced Garry health (5%), reduced Minion add health (10%), Iron Star clump size trigger adjustment (4 instead of 3)

Thoughts ? Right adjustments, wrong adjustments ? Right amount, wrong amount ? Too soon, not soon enough ?

[Socialhealer]

it's fine, SoO out for like 5 months? guilds who get it after the nerf almost certainly would get it in the end anyway, we've got like another 4-5 months of SoO.

[nightfalls]

LOL

God Forbid! 10 isn't the easy-mode raid all of a sudden, so we MUST nerf to the ground! If anything, I'd have reduced the health, but not made the Clump Check change. The reason you need proportionally a little less in 10 as far as I know, is simply because well, same deal: 25 has 2.5 more people crammed in the same amount of space.

[Dracodraco]

ron Star detection previously required 3 players on 10, and 8 on 25 (a standard ratio)

Anyone else find the fact that Blizzard doesn't even know their own game hilarious? While the general idea is correct, the trigger for ironstars in 25 man is 7 people ATM, not 8 <.<.

[Jurik]

It's a BIG change for 10. They're hitting 3 of the 4 hardest parts of the fight. Ultimately they are the right changes though the actual amounts are debatable.

Personally I would have rather seen a reduction in the number of Minion of Ys (from 8 to 7) rather than a health nerf on them.

Also the 4th malice on 25-man is heavily trivialized if you use an immunity group. You will never get a star. It's requires extreme precision on 10-man to soak the malice without spawning a star.

[Vereesa]

The huge discrepancy with Malice #4 is the fact that 25s can soak it properly without spawning an Iron Star, whereas 10s need to either let the boss get energy and risk dying to the damage or have the person with Malice die and soak it on the ground. (dead players don't constitute as targets for clump check)


OT: Makes sense since 25 is so much more trivial, but adjustments the likes of these are a bit late at this point...

[Dracodraco]

The huge discrepancy with Malice #4 is the fact that 25s can soak it properly without spawning an Iron Star, whereas 10s need to either let the boss get energy and risk dying to the damage or have the person with Malice die and soak it on the ground. (dead players don't constitute as targets for clump check)

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OT: Makes sense since 25 is so much easier, but adjustments the likes of these are a bit late at this point...

...Yes, that is what the blue post literally said :P.
"Iron Star detection previously required 3 players on 10, and 8 on 25 (a standard ratio), but this causes a discrepancy when it comes to the overlap between Bombardment and Malice. Malice requires 2 soakers on 10H and 5 on 25H (again, a standard ratio), but this means that the total clump sizes required to handle Malice are actually 3 and 6 respectively, such that a 25-player group could cover soaking Malice #4 (which fully overlaps with Bombardment) without triggering Iron Stars, whereas a 10-player group generally could not. This change should, like the rest, increase parity when it comes to this mechanic."

[Spotnick]

Not really a surprise there, everybody knew it was overtuned in 10 man. But that doesn't explain why they nerfed Paragons of the Klaxxi though, those are highly undertuned in 10 man.

Aren't we all happy we won't have any of those balance issues anymore?

[Deleted]

I personally believe Blizzard are nerfing the wrong things here. If they truly wanted to make the difference equivalent, they should have made AFKing Terrace and kiting the adds impossible - as a guild that does neither of these things and is closing in on P4, I get a mild taste of vomit in my mouth every time I see a guild cheese the only truly mechanically difficult part of the fight by bringing a third tank - something that 10-man guilds plain can't do on account of the Jade Serpent DPS check.

[Drakoes]

People also keep forgetting that you have more interrupts, stuns and just raid CD's in general in 25's.

All of these things makes most of the fight smoother, and are extremely important, including the transition phases and throughout the rest of the fight. It's a shame that most 25HC guilds are unable to see this because they're just used to having so much more CD's and other tools at their disposal.

[Spotnick]

All of the above and more.

Was thinking that with 4 raidsizes adjustments aren't necessary and content will nerf itself through aquirement of additional gear every week, then again I am no game designer and don't have their data.

The data is simple




5.8% of 25 man guilds killed them, 0.85% of 10 man guilds.. there is a huge gap there.

[Zinge]

cheese the only truly mechanically difficult part of the fight by bringing a third tank.

I didn't know using regular class mechanics and strategy that has been around since day one constituted "cheesing."

[Orcindauh]

it was only a matter of time.

[Deleted]

I didn't know using regular class mechanics and strategy that has been around since day one constituted "cheesing."

Consider this - what if, for some arcane reason, 10-mans could bring 3 tanks to Dark Shaman and make the enrage, but 25s could not, and were forced to tank them together.

Are you for a second claiming you would find this fair? That you would not decry it and protest?

[Zinge]

The data is simple




5.8% of 25 man guilds killed them, 0.85% of 10 man guilds.. there is a huge gap there.

This is a dumb comparison. 3380 25-man guilds have killed Normal Immerseus, where as 28707 10-man guilds have killed normal Immerseus. It makes sense that the difficulty that has less guilds overall has a higher PERCENTAGE.

Look at your own numbers. 30 more guilds have killed Heroic Garrosh on 10-man than 25-mans have.

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Consider this - what if, for some arcane reason, 10-mans could bring 3 tanks to Dark Shaman and make the enrage, but 25s could not, and were forced to tank them together.

Are you for a second claiming you would find this fair? That you would not decry it and protest?

Are you claiming that it's impossible to two-tank Dark Shamans/tank them together? Because it's not. 10-man Paragons is much easier than 25-man Paragons, but I didn't bitch about it.

[nightfalls]

5.8% of 25 man guilds killed them, 0.85% of 10 man guilds.. there is a huge gap there.

That actually means nothing. The vast majority of casual guilds (who don't do many or any heroics) happen to be 10 man.

[Deleted]

This is a dumb comparison. 3380 25-man guilds have killed Normal Immerseus, where as 28707 10-man guilds have killed normal Immerseus. It makes sense that the difficulty that has less guilds overall has a higher PERCENTAGE.

Look at your own numbers. 30 more guilds have killed Heroic Garrosh on 10-man than 25-mans have.

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Are you claiming that it's impossible to two-tank Dark Shamans? Because it's not. 10-man Paragons is much easier than 25-man Paragons, but I didn't bitch about it.

I am claiming no such thing. I am, however, claiming that there would be absolute outrage from a number of posters if it were 3-tankable in 10s whilst plainly not so in 25s.

And for the record, I disagreed with the blanket nerf to Paragons - it should have been 25-specific - the fight is a joke on 10-man, which I suppose is only fair compensation for pre-nerf Siegecrafter being wildly disparate in difficulty in favour of 25-mans.

[nightfalls]

Are you claiming that it's impossible to two-tank Dark Shamans/tank them together? Because it's not. 10-man Paragons is much easier than 25-man Paragons, but I didn't bitch about it.

In general especially later into a tier (and not early for the top end guilds) 10 has been much, much easier than 25 and also gets hit by "gearing" a lot more. For once, we have a situation where this isn't the case, and of course the sky has been falling.

---

In general I feel half the "additional" 10 man difficulty is actually there, the other half is only perceived because in general, most 10 man guilds are used to having it easier, thus the shocker...

[Spotnick]

This is a dumb comparison. 3380 25-man guilds have killed Normal Immerseus, where as 28707 10-man guilds have killed normal Immerseus. It makes sense that the difficulty that has less guilds overall has a higher PERCENTAGE.

Look at your own numbers. 30 more guilds have killed Heroic Garrosh on 10-man than 25-mans have.

Maybe phrasing was wrong, but you get the idea, the amount of kills is similar, but there are way more 10 man guilds.

Lei Shen is like 343 kills in 25 man and 2798 in 10 man.. granted it's hard to judge as nobody went back to do it in 25 post-patch and I'm not sure wowprogress locked it when content was current on their stat page.

[Jurik]

I personally believe Blizzard are nerfing the wrong things here. If they truly wanted to make the difference equivalent, they should have made AFKing Terrace and kiting the adds impossible - as a guild that does neither of these things and is closing in on P4, I get a mild taste of vomit in my mouth every time I see a guild cheese the only truly mechanically difficult part of the fight by bringing a third tank - something that 10-man guilds plain can't do on account of the Jade Serpent DPS check.

They generally shy away from up-tuning fights once live. It can be very frustrating to have a strat that works and puts a boss on farm suddenly broken and a new system needs to be learned.

Also, AFK-Terrace strat is doable in 10. Making that strategy impossible would affect 10s as much as 25s (maybe even more since 25s probably have the CDs to just coast through it). The breakpoint for this strat is you must be able to bring Garrosh to 10% prior to Emp.Whirling #3 in the second half of P2. That usually requires pushing to ~25% prior to Terrace. If you can do that, more power to you--you can opt to endure 2 Whirling rather than the Terrace gauntlet.