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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You kinda just proved yourself wrong.
    Exactly as I said, the gear check is about the same, but it was far easier to kill it in 25 man since you have higher gear. Also taking into account that those 10 man guilds probably spent 100-200 more attempts than the 25 man guilds to kill it at the same item level, that should say something.

    A lot of guilds were in the situation we were in, started progression at like 563 where it was completely impossible, then once we got to 568 it was fairly "simple" since we had wasted so much time at 563.
    The gear check in this entire tier has been a joke on both modes compared to previous tiers because of 5k valor upgrade available in the first hc week(3k saved+1k normal week+1k heroic week)+ legendary cape. The difference between normal mode week farming also comes into play, many of the top 20 guilds in 10 man were doing 1-2 10 man raids, an absolute joke.

    I really can't see where the 100-200 more attempts then the 25 man guilds to kill it comes from? Maybe Garrosh but that's a side effect of add kiting or cheesing on Blackfuse/Paragons(hunters/rogues cheating belt, boping Skeer's adds), Siegecrafter Blackfuse and Paragons of the Klaxxi are easier on 10 man without cheating.

  2. #262
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    Re: Siegecrafter, I think it's a lot easier to do the empowered mine killing strat on 25M unless you have the perfect 10M group for it. As well, in 10M you are much more liable for personal mistakes and will die in more cases than than you would in 25M with all the collateral healing and CD saturation going on. Again the raid clumping/stacking phenomenon works here in 25M but rarely is it employed in 10M.

    Basically when we were progressing on that fight, I felt really bad for our healers. I also wished both our healers were absorb/shield healers instead of having a resto druid.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by kidsafe View Post
    Re: Siegecrafter, I think it's a lot easier to do the empowered mine killing strat on 25M unless you have the perfect 10M group for it. As well, in 10M you are much more liable for personal mistakes and will die in more cases than than you would in 25M with all the collateral healing and CD saturation going on. Again the raid clumping/stacking phenomenon works here in 25M but rarely is it employed in 10M.

    Basically when we were progressing on that fight, I felt really bad for our healers. I also wished both our healers were absorb/shield healers instead of having a resto druid.
    I was under the impression that you needed to stack regardless of size, due to the encounter mechanics. For bombs because you want them running in the same direction for easier CC, and for missiles because you want them to spawn at specific places rather than where-ever the fuck they want :/.
    As for killing bombs, it was more than doable with just 2 ranged after the nerf (lock+boomkin), and half the time they'd be out running either way. It's a 20% hp reduction, so assuming most guilds would have 3 ranged for the bombs, it seems fair to assume that it'd be pretty much the same pre nerf with another ranged as it was post nerf for us.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    The gear check in this entire tier has been a joke on both modes compared to previous tiers because of 5k valor upgrade available in the first hc week(3k saved+1k normal week+1k heroic week)+ legendary cape.
    Week 1 10H Norushen, Malkorok, Spoils, and Thok would like a word with you.

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I was under the impression that you needed to stack regardless of size, due to the encounter mechanics. For bombs because you want them running in the same direction for easier CC, and for missiles because you want them to spawn at specific places rather than where-ever the fuck they want :/.
    As for killing bombs, it was more than doable with just 2 ranged after the nerf (lock+boomkin), and half the time they'd be out running either way. It's a 20% hp reduction, so assuming most guilds would have 3 ranged for the bombs, it seems fair to assume that it'd be pretty much the same pre nerf with another ranged as it was post nerf for us.
    We never stacked in 10M, it forces too much movement and concentrates random abilities on one area. We also tried dealing with mines and it was just easier, faster to kill the mines on the belt and deal with empowered lasers, turrets and magnet. I'd say the vast majority of 10M kill mines on the belt every single time, whereas the majority of 25M let the mines empower.

  6. #266
    These news are great for 10m guilds: now they can sell garrosh hc achievements and mounts just by carrying the person without account sharing requirement.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    The gear check in this entire tier has been a joke on both modes compared to previous tiers because of 5k valor upgrade available in the first hc week(3k saved+1k normal week+1k heroic week)+ legendary cape. The difference between normal mode week farming also comes into play, many of the top 20 guilds in 10 man were doing 1-2 10 man raids, an absolute joke.

    I really can't see where the 100-200 more attempts then the 25 man guilds to kill it comes from? Maybe Garrosh but that's a side effect of add kiting or cheesing on Blackfuse/Paragons(hunters/rogues cheating belt, boping Skeer's adds), Siegecrafter Blackfuse and Paragons of the Klaxxi are easier on 10 man without cheating.
    Hello super educated poster!

    The 100-200 attempts could possibly be referring to Garrosh in a post adressing Garrosh in a thread about Garrosh. That seems like a very logical conclusion from your side that it might be a possibility! Great deductive skills.

    I would like to know which of the top 20 10 man guilds did two 10 man raids, being in there and knowing over half of the guilds in there and none of those I know did it, granted I am not that much in touch with the russians and non-english guilds other than the swedish. Some ran 25 man normal the first week for gear, but none I heard of ran multiple 10 man raids for gear.

    The gear check being a joke? I guess you did not do Malk/Spoils/Thok/Garrosh in relevant gear.
    I would care to differ that Siegecrafter was easier in 10 man, would you please explain your reasoning there? A lot of the early 25 man kills had an entire belt team barely touching the boss, only doing belts and often standig /afk waiting for next belt because boss was kept on the other side of the room for mines.
    25 mans could do mines, which just makes the fight mechanically a joke since you only have to deal with 1 ability instead of 2.

    Not saying it was a lot easier on 25 man, but it was definately not harder. Siegecrafter was pretty far between the modes, slightly easier on 25 man, which was adjusted in the recent hotfixes to that encounter in 10 man.

    10 man Paragons was a lot easier than 25 man, dont see anyone argueing about that, but Garrosh more than made up for that by being pushover in 25 man and a gear check in 10 man.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I was under the impression that you needed to stack regardless of size, due to the encounter mechanics. For bombs because you want them running in the same direction for easier CC, and for missiles because you want them to spawn at specific places rather than where-ever the fuck they want :/.
    As for killing bombs, it was more than doable with just 2 ranged after the nerf (lock+boomkin), and half the time they'd be out running either way. It's a 20% hp reduction, so assuming most guilds would have 3 ranged for the bombs, it seems fair to assume that it'd be pretty much the same pre nerf with another ranged as it was post nerf for us.
    Not stacking in 10 man is natural. We only stacked for certain parts of the fight, i.e. magnets, and even then not the entire raid team stacked.

    Most 10 mans killed mines on the belt since dealing with them on the ground was almost impossible unless you had the absolute perfect raid setup for them.
    Which resulted in you having to deal with 2 mechanics on the ground as opposed to 25 mans who only had to deal with 1. That is why 25 mans could stack and 10 mans opted to spread out as it made dealing with 2 mechanics easier.
    I think I only heard of 1 guild in the top 40 that actually killed mines on the ground in 10 man, could be others, but a vast vast majority killed mines on belt because mines on the ground was so much harder than dealing with double abilities.

    We probably gave the 25 man strats of stacking both with and without killing mines in different positions 100-150 tries, but in the end it made the fight a lot harder.

    If you think killing mines in 10 mans was "easily doable" pre-nerf in relevant gear, you are deeply mistaken. It was possible for sure, but required you to have a perfect setup for it, atleast until you were overgearing the encounter. I never tried to kill mines in 560+, so wouldnt know how it is then.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2014-02-20 at 11:43 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  8. #268
    Mechagnome Wayne25uk's Avatar
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    I cant say that i care really but i just wanted to say thanks as now Garrosh to me will forever be known as Garry!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug7jf75OiNQ

    Again thank you! And i will say it in that accent! EVERYTIME!

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post



    Not stacking in 10 man is natural. We only stacked for certain parts of the fight, i.e. magnets, and even then not the entire raid team stacked.

    Most 10 mans killed mines on the belt since dealing with them on the ground was almost impossible unless you had the absolute perfect raid setup for them.
    Which resulted in you having to deal with 2 mechanics on the ground as opposed to 25 mans who only had to deal with 1. That is why 25 mans could stack and 10 mans opted to spread out as it made dealing with 2 mechanics easier.
    I think I only heard of 1 guild in the top 40 that actually killed mines on the ground in 10 man, could be others, but a vast vast majority killed mines on belt because mines on the ground was so much harder than dealing with double abilities.

    We probably gave the 25 man strats of stacking both with and without killing mines in different positions 100-150 tries, but in the end it made the fight a lot harder.

    If you think killing mines in 10 mans was "easily doable" pre-nerf in relevant gear, you are deeply mistaken. It was possible for sure, but required you to have a perfect setup for it, atleast until you were overgearing the encounter. I never tried to kill mines in 560+, so wouldnt know how it is then.
    I think you misunderstood what I said, though - I thought 10 mans had to keep their raid members relatively close no matter if they did Missiles, or Bombs. Both are mechanics that works off of your current position - mines by running in a straight line to members (so keeping stacked is prefered), and Missiles from spawning in a straight line from members (so being spread might cause wonky spawns). After all, dealing with Missiles is as "simple" as just sidestepping the pulses on the ground, so the raid being stacked or not should not have a great effect. If this is not the case, then my assumption is wrong . We only gave missiles about 5 attempts before switching to mines.

    As for the mines being "easily doable", it does indeed depend on setup, but so did 25 man. I do still chuckle quite a bit when people seem to assume that, during progress, it didn't matter what setup you had at all, you'd still be able to CC/Kill the mines in time. This was not the case *at all*, especially as you'd be using one of the more effective classes (hunter) on the belt. Mages did pretty poor damage to them (atleast ours did), leaving Ele shamans, locks, shadow priests and boomkins. If you didn't have a combination of about 8 of these, you were in for a pretty shitty time (and even boomkins were only "good" because of their OP CC).

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I think you misunderstood what I said, though - I thought 10 mans had to keep their raid members relatively close no matter if they did Missiles, or Bombs. Both are mechanics that works off of your current position - mines by running in a straight line to members (so keeping stacked is prefered), and Missiles from spawning in a straight line from members (so being spread might cause wonky spawns). After all, dealing with Missiles is as "simple" as just sidestepping the pulses on the ground, so the raid being stacked or not should not have a great effect. If this is not the case, then my assumption is wrong . We only gave missiles about 5 attempts before switching to mines.

    As for the mines being "easily doable", it does indeed depend on setup, but so did 25 man. I do still chuckle quite a bit when people seem to assume that, during progress, it didn't matter what setup you had at all, you'd still be able to CC/Kill the mines in time. This was not the case *at all*, especially as you'd be using one of the more effective classes (hunter) on the belt. Mages did pretty poor damage to them (atleast ours did), leaving Ele shamans, locks, shadow priests and boomkins. If you didn't have a combination of about 8 of these, you were in for a pretty shitty time (and even boomkins were only "good" because of their OP CC).
    The only missile spawn that really matters is the empowered ones, and we only really cared with positioning with the first one of those (and even then we had a 90 degree area that we spread on), after that we just did free for all but tried to stay within +-60 degrees of the boss on either side. Stacking up for missiles would have caused a lot more movement and trouble than it is worth.

    25 mans usually had so many engineers so they did not really need that many players. Even so, the 25 mans that could not stack classes to deal with mines are the exception, as opposed to the 10 mans that could stack classes to deal with mines. Maybe not every 25 man could deal with mines, but 95% could, and 95% of 10 mans couldnt. Getting enough classes to deal with mines is not exactly hard in a 25 man, especially since you can easily carry a few dpsers on Siegecrafter so that melee could come on his mage alt or whatever.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #271
    Mages did pretty poor damage to them (atleast ours did)
    Arcane mage + frost bomb actually does pretty good damage to the mines, plus applies a 70% snare. Then you have ring of frost, blizzard (which arcane mastery means does +100% damage) which applies a 50% snare too.

    Fire mage is shit though.

  12. #272
    I don't think the engineer trick was widely known when we killed Siege, Firefly. Atleast I don't recall hearing about it untill we were multiple rekills in, and we're usually quick to pick up on stuff (our first paragon kill was the first west one to use the BOP-tactic if I recall right). That said, it doesn't really matter either way. Suffice to say that I don't see the big deal with 3x ranged with mines having 1.2m or 1.5m health.

    And Nitros, ours was deffo fire for progression =P. They haven't gotten their gearsets finished to make the switch yet.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2014-02-21 at 12:43 PM.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    You can now AFK Terrace in 10-man and still only get 2 EWCs. Sigh.
    You could do that before the nerfs.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    Week 1 10H Norushen, Malkorok, Spoils, and Thok would like a word with you.
    Out of those, the only one that'd actually want to have a word with anyone would be Spoils and even that came down to strategy more so than gear.

  15. #275
    We wiped this week due to too much dps. 1st phase lasted about 40 seconds on the best opener, we were close to not getting the 2nd warbringer pack which caused people to not have certain CDs up for the intermission. We also got the boss to 11% before Terrace, without using BL/2nd pots. Considering we are 2 healing and we had 3 new people brought in, that is just ridiculous. Last phase you can probably have someone afking because that was laughable.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Vereesa View Post
    Out of those, the only one that'd actually want to have a word with anyone would be Spoils and even that came down to strategy more so than gear.
    Spoils was the least gear check of those 3.
    You even said it yourself, spoils was about strategy, not gear.

    Thok was probably the toughest gear check for us except for Garrosh, but in our situation that was probably mostly due to replacing 2 players after Malkorok having to bring in undergeared people, and again replacing 2 more players before Garrosh.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by youlauzt View Post
    You could do that before the nerfs.
    Now even with two healers you can easily skip the 2nd intermission altogether

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