Prot Pally Vs. N Garrosh 10m - need help

[NRL1515]

Hello Paladins,

I come here seeking your guidance with our group's OT during this fight. We're up to about 80 wipes on this guy, and before recently I did not think that he (our protadin) was holding back our group at all. He's been VERY solid for us the entire expansion, and is perfectly fine playing second fiddle to me (BrM Monk) throughout, but Garrosh is one of those fights where both of us need to be on point.

My good man FlaviusAetius had already broken down the logs a little bit and what he revealed was pretty horrifying for both of us when I posted this in another forum looking for help. I had no idea Krygon (our pally OT) was using seal of truth, and that his gemming was a little out of whack.

In our strategy, we have him just solely handling Garrosh in P1 (and I implore him to watch his usage of AoE abilities during that just so he doesn't pull stray mobs off me and onto him just so he's not taking more damage than he needs to), and then we taunt back and forth about every 3 stacks of the debuff when we can during P2, and then I take all the adds on P3 and leave him on the boss.

Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rygon/advanced

Logs from night #1: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...d59/details/8/
Logs from night #2 (ignore thok, blackfuse, and paragons obv): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...tdu/details/7/

As I said before, Flavius had pointed out that his gemming was off, and needed to eschew socket bonuses and go with pure haste (unless adding in expertise gems would help him get to cap). The use of seal of truth thing blew me out of the water, and that will be fixed IMMEDIATELY.

Is there anything else that I am missing in regards to our pally? He's a good player, and he follows directions well; I have no doubt he will be able to seamlessly apply any changes to his gearing/gemming/playstyle asap.

Thank you for your time and assistance, I appreciate it.

[vaarsuviuss]

If you have an off spec, let him solo tank it. My one and only so far lol was from me soloing tanking with about 459ilvl gear( I have been playing pally for years so that helps). But tell him to grab EF and keep it on him at all time. Its going to tic for upwards of 260k+ every 2 secs its amazing. and just let him hold the boss the entire fight.

Having one tank and that other dps is amazing. He should also end the right with about 300k dps+ as a tank.

O ya and use Seal of Insight

[NRL1515]

If you have an off spec, let him solo tank it. My one and only so far lol was from me soloing tanking with about 459ilvl gear( I have been playing pally for years so that helps). But tell him to grab EF and keep it on him at all time. Its going to tic for upwards of 260k+ every 2 secs its amazing. and just let him hold the boss the entire fight.

Having one tank and that other dps is amazing. He should also end the right with about 300k dps+ as a tank.

O ya and use Seal of Insight

Yes, I do have a dps OS, and it has crossed my mind to try and single tank this fight; however I'd like to see how he handles the changes already proposed before I feel comfortable letting him single tank this fight. He has a holy OS, but he's not very strong in that spec and only uses it during thok as I single tank that fight.

[Golo]

Well here are a few things I would suggest. Glyphs! change to the divine protection glyph... most of the damage he is taking is physical. He should be using divine protection after every taunt or on cooldown while on the boss. They glyph will give his divine protection 20% damage reduction on physical. The glyph of hammer of the righteous is not great I would replace it with the Divine protection glyph.

Try to get his 4 piece bonus on the t16 tier equipment. It really is good. Really Really good.

This should help him keep his Eternal Flame uptime increased and his Shield of the Righteousness uptime increased. The uptime on eternal flame should be over 70% if possible. Go to Theck's site and get his weak aura strings for eternal flame so he knows when it is down and when to recast it if the buff is better. It is called sacred duty... and is a good source of information.

Both of those up times should be increased if possible.

His Gemming isn't horrible. If it is hard to keep him up then stamina is helpful... not ideal but it is not awful. While haste is better he isn't getting that much haste from the 4 gems. However, that said haste is better and he should be aiming for the 50% haste soft cap of 1 second GCD.

However, it is likely hard to keep him up because he is not using all his cooldowns to prevent damage. He should be using divine protection everytime he taunts the boss off you and every time it is on cooldown when he is tanking (with Glyph of Divine Protection). Also it looks like he only used ardent defender 3 times. It is a great oh crap button and the cool down isn't long so use it. The other oh crap button which he is not using is Guardian of the Ancient Kings. This reduces damage by 50% it should be used if he is in a corruption or has a bunch of adds on him. It should be used. If it isn't then it doesn't do any good. He does seem to be using his trinket as a defensive cooldown. So he is capable of doing all these things.

Healing to Self he is around 22% That is much lower than I usually run which is 33-38% depending on the damage intake of the fight. This will significantly change with seal of insight and increasing the uptime of eternal flame. Now if your healers are really strong then he doesn't need to use them, but in progression fights seal of insight and eternal flame max uptime make life so much easier. On low damage fights seal of truth is fine, or on DPS races with high vengence it is great. (only if the healers can keep you up). He likely uses seal of truth because Monk tank DPS is very good, and without seal of truth paladin tank dps is not close.

So more uptime on defensive cooldowns!
More uptime on Eternal Flame!
More uptime on Shield of the Righteousness!

Change his glyph to Divine Shield.
Use Seal of Insight when on progression and high damage fights.

[Deleted]

Well here are a few things I would suggest. Glyphs! change to the divine protection glyph... most of the damage he is taking is physical. He should be using divine protection after every taunt or on cooldown while on the boss. They glyph will give his divine protection 20% damage reduction on physical. The glyph of hammer of the righteous is not great I would replace it with the Divine protection glyph.

Try to get his 4 piece bonus on the t16 tier equipment. It really is good. Really Really good.

This should help him keep his Eternal Flame uptime increased and his Shield of the Righteousness uptime increased. The uptime on eternal flame should be over 70% if possible. Go to Theck's site and get his weak aura strings for eternal flame so he knows when it is down and when to recast it if the buff is better. It is called sacred duty... and is a good source of information.

Both of those up times should be increased if possible.

His Gemming isn't horrible. If it is hard to keep him up then stamina is helpful... not ideal but it is not awful. While haste is better he isn't getting that much haste from the 4 gems. However, that said haste is better and he should be aiming for the 50% haste soft cap of 1 second GCD.

However, it is likely hard to keep him up because he is not using all his cooldowns to prevent damage. He should be using divine protection everytime he taunts the boss off you and every time it is on cooldown when he is tanking (with Glyph of Divine Protection). Also it looks like he only used ardent defender 3 times. It is a great oh crap button and the cool down isn't long so use it. The other oh crap button which he is not using is Guardian of the Ancient Kings. This reduces damage by 50% it should be used if he is in a corruption or has a bunch of adds on him. It should be used. If it isn't then it doesn't do any good. He does seem to be using his trinket as a defensive cooldown. So he is capable of doing all these things.

Healing to Self he is around 22% That is much lower than I usually run which is 33-38% depending on the damage intake of the fight. This will significantly change with seal of insight and increasing the uptime of eternal flame. Now if your healers are really strong then he doesn't need to use them, but in progression fights seal of insight and eternal flame max uptime make life so much easier. On low damage fights seal of truth is fine, or on DPS races with high vengence it is great. (only if the healers can keep you up). He likely uses seal of truth because Monk tank DPS is very good, and without seal of truth paladin tank dps is not close.

So more uptime on defensive cooldowns!
More uptime on Eternal Flame!
More uptime on Shield of the Righteousness!

Change his glyph to Divine Shield.
Use Seal of Insight when on progression and high damage fights.

I'm going to reply to this in the interest of finishing the work I started in your thread in the monk subforum, OP. There is some advice given by Golo that is helpful, and some advice given by him that is the opposite - I think it would be abrogating some measure of responsibility to not let your paladin be led further astray than he already is. I hope you will trust me when I claim (and I hope Golo will take no offence, for truly, none is meant) that I am rather more tangibly qualified to be advising you here than most of the general paladin population.

Now, first things first, choosing Glyph of Divine Protection is decidedly suboptimal for this fight. There is very heavy magic damage (especially if you go into a Whirling Corruption with stacks of Despair), and Divine Protection is an extremely strong cooldown when unglyphed in such situations. The rest of the tank damage over the course of the fight is predictable, and generally happens when there is little-to-no raid damage, which means that glyphed DP should never, ever be necessary for tank switches. Krygon should simply make sure he has 5 HoPo banked before a tank switch, which will allow him to roll SotR for 6 seconds immediately following it. This should be all the mitigation he needs on a such switch, while letting him keep unglyphed DP for Whirling Corruption, etc.

Secondly, while Krygon certainly must improve his uptime on SotR and Eternal Flame, do not simply say "improve your uptime on EF". This may lead him to start casting it at < 3 stacks of Bastion of Glory, which will essentially make Eternal Flame completely useless. Make sure he has a proper understanding of how EF interacts with Bastion of Glory, and tell him to ideally (obviously never sit on your hands and die just because you only have 4, though!) always cast it with 5 stacks of said buff - he simply is not of a skill level where he should be concerning himself with such things as DP-proc-fishing with 4-set, or other like shenanigans.

Now, with regards to CD usage, I am not of the opinion that 3 uses of AD over the course of the fight is necessarily foolish. As a tank, as I'm sure you know, one does not simply aim for max possible uptime on defensives. If he is holding his CDs for specific moments where he knows he needs them, and not using them when they are unnecessary, then 3 uses is well and good. On top of that, there is a rather unfortunate bug with WoL, such that GoAK does not show up even when used. If he is using AD, and even his trinket, I assure you that he also has the presence of mind to employ GoAK, so do not worry yourself too much about this.

I've already covered his awful gemming practices; in spite of what Golo says, he is quite clearly gemming to fill socket bonuses - something he should never concern himself with as a tank. So long as his accuracy stats are capped, he should gem pure haste in every single slot - especially since haste (due to the way primary and secondary stats are differently weighted on gems) provenly has a higher damage-smoothing value per gem than stamina. His actual HP may be lower, but it will seem effectively higher to your healers, as EF and SoI will tick more often with greater haste.

Now, a final point, addressing the much-loathed Seal of Truth: Unlike what Golo seems to suggest, Seal of Truth does not scale with Vengeance in any appreciable manner. It scales solely with weapon DPS, and IIRC adds around 5k? DPS if used with a Heroic Warforged weapon as prot. Seal of Insight, on the other hand, not only scales with vengeance, but does so exceptionally well. If he uses Seal of Insight and masters correct use of Eternal Flame, you will easily see him do upwards of 50% of his own healing - even on exceptionally hard-hitting bosses. I am a rank-whore second only in filthiness to the likes of Jellospally and Lazel (who I gladly admit are admirably creative when finding novel ways to parse on fights!), and even I would rather not use a Seal at all than use Seal of Truth.

In the interest of Krygon having something to compare his progress in terms of play with, here is a recent log from Heroic Garrosh progress, and a link to my armoury. Make sure he understands that he should not regard what I wear as anything remotely resembling BiS - it is largely a matter of personal idiosyncracy and tier tokens being put to better use on other raiders that I do not employ tier at all:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-rw...?s=5917&e=6502
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%AFre/simple

Assuming such is at all possible, should you wish to add my Battletag in case of further questions, feel free to PM me, and I will try to be as forthcoming with help as I can.

[Fhi]

Please use this megathread: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...Fix-my-Tanking!