Rogue defensive nerf unnecessary?

[Nurvus]

I partially agree with Silentman, but think Nerve Strike need a small nerf nonetheless, and the other two talents perhaps need a small buff.

Nerve Strike should be nerfed to 40~30% reduction vs rogue & 20~15% reduction vs the rest.

Deadly Throw should refund some Combo Points when it successfully interrupts a spell or hits a moving target, and perhaps also be usable in melee and apply Weakened Blows if it hits a target in melee range.

Combat Readiness should also be refreshed by harmful incoming spells (not their periodic effects), and provide half the reduction against spell damage.

My reasoning for Combat Readiness and Deadly Throw, is that I really don't consider it very interesting to have talents that are utterly useless vs casters or vs attackers, essentially meaning you're picking who you are countering, rather than picking your playstyle.

I rather have balanced playstyle choices, instead of overpowered gimmick advantages.

[Silentman]

That has to be the funniest shit ive read all year. To keep rogues aoe peel, similar to shockwave, they need to be able to stun multiple targets with cheapshot, and apply a debuff afterwords... oh wait Shockwave just stuns.

How is cheapshotting the world not a good enough aoe peel? Seriously now.

It would be an AoE peel in its own right, i listed some other examples of AoE peels, i was not directly comparing them. You cant really Directly compare shockwave to Fear, and same with Ring of Frost and Fist of Fury.

Maybe 50% damage reduction is steep for peels, hence the nerf. However, i feel like in the example i gave you are overestimating the power of 25% reduction. It really Isn't that much. As a rogue, i can easily die from burst by a multitude of classes with Feint up, and thats 30% reduction. That being said, in order to do this "World Peel" that is so easily done, i would need to have S&D up, wait to get full energy bar, use my Vanish (our main Defensive) and cheapshot everyone, provided they are clumped together, OR, use Shadow Dance (our main Offensive) and run up to everyone that way.

Now, sense you are clearly a warrior, lets review. As a warrior, you have the option to slow everyone around you, then snare them all, you can shockwave everyone if they are clumped together, you can fear everyone for 8 seconds, and you can also use mass spell reflect which can be used against certain big hitting spells if timed right. You can do this all without blowing any defensives or offensives. You can actually blow most of these WHILE bursting. an 8 second fear by itself is better than nerve strike, because essentially a fear is 100% damage control because the opponent cant control his character. Warrior fear can only be trinketed because it is not dispellable by healers. On top of which you have a plethera of stuns and slows once fear time has passed. Yet a 4 second stun into a 25% damage reduction that forces the rogue to use either a main defensive or offensive is to much of an OP peel?

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My reasoning for Combat Readiness and Deadly Throw, is that I really don't consider it very interesting to have talents that are utterly useless vs casters or vs attackers, essentially meaning you're picking who you are countering, rather than picking your playstyle.

I think this sums up how i feel about that talent tier nicely.

[meatfresh]

Maybe 50% damage reduction is steep for peels, hence the nerf. However, i feel like in the example i gave you are overestimating the power of 25% reduction. It really Isn't that much. As a rogue, i can easily die from burst by a multitude of classes with Feint up, and thats 30% reduction. That being said, in order to do this "World Peel" that is so easily done, i would need to have S&D up, wait to get full energy bar, use my Vanish (our main Defensive) and cheapshot everyone, provided they are clumped together, OR, use Shadow Dance (our main Offensive) and run up to everyone that way.

Now, sense you are clearly a warrior, lets review. As a warrior, you have the option to slow everyone around you, then snare them all, you can shockwave everyone if they are clumped together, you can fear everyone for 8 seconds, and you can also use mass spell reflect which can be used against certain big hitting spells if timed right. You can do this all without blowing any defensives or offensives. You can actually blow most of these WHILE bursting. an 8 second fear by itself is better than nerve strike, because essentially a fear is 100% damage control because the opponent cant control his character. Warrior fear can only be trinketed because it is not dispellable by healers. On top of which you have a plethera of stuns and slows once fear time has passed. Yet a 4 second stun into a 25% damage reduction that forces the rogue to use either a main defensive or offensive is to much of an OP peel?

Firstly having SnD up is really no big deal as it should always be up and shouldn't you also have around 75% energy unless going for a kill? I thought rogues should pool energy (I am a horrible rogue though). I think in most cases you would use dance to go for the world peel but you seem to be missing the crucial part of why nerve strike is so good, it's not just because it's an amazing peel but also because you are trading cd's with it. This imo is why nerve strike was so good because you trade 1 shadow dance with a 1 min cool down for an ascendance which has a 3 min cooldown or some other shit that has more than 1 min cooldown. Ascendance? Cool story bro 4 second stun and 6 sec 50% dmg reduction, he will hit like a wet noodle. In all seriousness you don't even need to world peel, you can just cheapshot the shammy in ascendance and job done see you for your next burst attempt in 3 minutes where the rogue will have 2 more dances... Also you have burst of speed and running to different targets shouldn't be hard, you have a permanent sprint! my dk just walks slower than a potato... I jelly...

I don't think comparing rogues to warriors is a good idea, what is comparing it going to achieve? Warriors are already receiving nerfs and almost certainly more nerfs in the future. The real issue however is that they cannot trade cooldowns in such a positive fashion, pop shield wall? no worries just won't aim you then, you fear? no worries got my trinket out here and i'll keep beating your ass till i get cc'd again, but if a rogue nerve strikes you there is nothing you can do except wait it out (if I'm not mistaken). You can trade 1 shadow dance every minute for any offensive cooldown you want and come out favourable, that's why I think nerve strike got nerfed but who knows could be wrong.

I think the best way to nerf it would be like someone previously stated, 50% reduction to the rogue and 25% to all others or maybe buff combat readiness.

[Tyrean]

I honestly think the problem with the nerve strike talent is not that it is such a huge reduction in damage, I think the problem lies in the fact that it is tied to cheap shot. I think it would be better if they left it intact, and instead tied it to kidney shot only. So it would still be a potent peel on someone popping CDs, but it would have a negative side in that you are "wasting" a kill attempt move to peel and remove the ability to apply it every time you have dance/vanish or a restealth available. And that you can't peel an entire team.

Would be a cool talent if you had to choose when to use your kidney defensively as opposed to offensively. I would think the game play on both sides of the coin would be more engaging as well. i.e. hold your major CDs until right after kidney, hold your kidney for major CDs type of cat and mouse mind play.

[Prag]

Just curious but, why is Nerve Strike all of the sudden a problem now? It wasn't a problem at the beginning of the expac. Is it because rogues can do a lot of damage now that people don't like it or what?

Gear scaling has made a lot of previously-mundane abilities suddenly powerful. It happens every expansion, so it's not surprising really.

[Silentman]

Firstly having SnD up is really no big deal as it should always be up and shouldn't you also have around 75% energy unless going for a kill? I thought rogues should pool energy (I am a horrible rogue though). Also you have burst of speed and running to different targets shouldn't be hard, you have a permanent sprint! my dk just walks slower than a potato... I jelly...

I don't think comparing rogues to warriors is a good idea.

Very good point you made, no, most rogues don't pool energy unless going for a kill soon or a peel soon. The point of pooling energy is so you have enough energy to cheapshot/garrote everyone you need to (this could include pets in some cases) which can be hindered if you are spamming burst of speed. And no, it isn't hard to have S&D up, but i was giving the idea that it isn't just a 1 button press mass stun talent, there are things that need to be in place first.

Second, I mentioned and compared to warriors several times because i was directly quoting and replying to comments made by a warrior and the comparisons he made.

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I honestly think the problem with the nerve strike talent is not that it is such a huge reduction in damage, I think the problem lies in the fact that it is tied to cheap shot. I think it would be better if they left it intact, and instead tied it to kidney shot only. So it would still be a potent peel on someone popping CDs, but it would have a negative side in that you are "wasting" a kill attempt move to peel and remove the ability to apply it every time you have dance/vanish or a restealth available. And that you can't peel an entire team.

Would be a cool talent if you had to choose when to use your kidney defensively as opposed to offensively. I would think the game play on both sides of the coin would be more engaging as well. i.e. hold your major CDs until right after kidney, hold your kidney for major CDs type of cat and mouse mind play.

This is a good idea, the problem there however, is that kidney shot is a very big deal for rogues. With a lot of rogues abilities being positional, kidney shot is used almost everytime it can be, bursting or not. Even though sometimes rogues do use it for CC or peels, making a decision like the one you suggested would make it feel as if kidney shot is a defensive that needs to be saved and i dont feel like that is a good change.

[solushunz]

Combat Readiness does reduce ALL damage taken (including spells), or at least the tooltip eludes to such. The catch is it only procs from melee/ranged melee attacks, it has to stack 5 times (rogues have a habit of dodging a lot) and it's easy to bait.

Basically, if you're not using CR at 85-90% HP, especially with the current state of burst in the game, you may as well not use it at all, and even then you could still die through it. Cheat Death is trash tier and should simply be a baseline, passive ability at this point, for rogues.

Nerve Strike nerf was warranted, but leaving us with talents that are pretty worthless is not.

[EDGrenade]

Subterfuge needs to get whacked with the nerf bat next.

[meatfresh]

Maybe it would be better to make kidney shot work like old nerve strike and cheap shot work like new nerve strike? However I still feel it trades too favorably for the rogue.

[Deleted]

I love every nerf if it's not my class