1. #1

    Question Holy is easy, some say.

    Therefore, quickly boring. But I do not believe it.
    I have no Paladin yet, only a Priest and some other low characters.

    They don't seem to be alike, even tho they have both of the Light.
    Because Paladin has this Holy Power system?

    Hm, maybe some of you could perhaps shed some light on this, for instance -
    Do you feel when playing as Holy, Paladin that you have some tools that go outside of a "rotation"?
    Also, is there enough spells for you to consider using a different spell in a different situations? You know?

    By the way, I only think of PvE, I never do PvP.

  2. #2
    I'm by no means skilled holy paladin, but I will try to answer anyway.

    I always though that holy is easy to play, hard to master spec. Putting beacon on tank, spamming holy shock and casting holy light on any target that lights up is easy enough, occasionally dropping eternal flame/wog or light of dawn. Using cooldowns while needed and you are set.

    But! There are little things. Preshielding tank by spamming holy light on him (and generally understanding holy mastery). Using crusader strike as bonus hpower generator. Banking holy power. Learning to blanket raid in eternal flame rather than using light of dawn. Mastering use of hands (really, it scares me how rarely some paladins actually use those). Also, we have 4 major, strong cooldowns (assuming you talent into holy avenger) - learning when to use each, how to stack them (and if to stack them) does take some skill.

    Does it challenge experienced healer? Probably not. But as average player I do find holy healing engaging, and after a fight I usually figure out that I could've done this or that better.

    edit: You may have noticed I didn't mention divine light/flash of light. On my skill level, their mana cost just doesn't seem to match healing. Unless tank is on fire (or I get legendary meta proc!) and I need that healing (and holy power from beacon), I prefer not to use those at all. With holy light having 100% transfer over beacon it's just more efficient to make it your major heal - plus it barely moves your mana bar.
    Last edited by Sinlea; 2014-02-15 at 10:57 AM.

  3. #3
    Well, you just have to try it out for yourself.

    I'm a healer kinda guy, I play every healer at 90 except for priest (83) because I cba to level through 85-90 anymore. But I really wanted to play a paladin so I leveled the dude and played him at 90. Two weeks later and it's like I don't have a paladin at all :l Back to my main lol (mw monk).

    I don't know, man, you have to try it for yourself. Took me around two weeks to get so bored of it I couldn't play it anymore. I even tried it first on PTR and read about their spells, rotation and CDs and they looked cool. But man :l
    I regret leveling the guy, now I'm even more burned out of leveling

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinlea View Post
    I always though that holy is easy to play, hard to master spec.
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinlea View Post
    Putting beacon on tank, spamming holy shock and casting holy light on any target that lights up is easy enough,
    Wrong, Holy Light is terrible if you are using it as a main rotational ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinlea View Post
    occasionally dropping eternal flame/wog or light of dawn. Using cooldowns while needed and you are set.
    Wrong, holy pallies revolve around generating holy power and spending them. You do not simply "occasionally" drop EF and LoD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinlea View Post
    But! There are little things. Preshielding tank by spamming holy light on him (and generally understanding holy mastery).
    Wrong, this tells me you do not understand holy in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinlea View Post
    Using crusader strike as bonus hpower generator.
    This is terrible advice. CS is an awful skill for all (holy paladin-based)specs and shouldn't ever be touched, least of which with the SoI nerf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinlea View Post
    Banking holy power.
    Depends on what you mean by banking holy power; if you mean sitting on 5 holy power for extended periods of time, then no, this is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinlea View Post
    Learning to blanket raid in eternal flame rather than using light of dawn.
    Depends on whether EF or SH is slotted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinlea View Post
    Mastering use of hands (really, it scares me how rarely some paladins actually use those).
    Correct, our hand spells are useful and holy pallies should learn how to use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinlea View Post
    Also, we have 4 major, strong cooldowns (assuming you talent into holy avenger) - learning when to use each, how to stack them (and if to stack them) does take some skill.
    Correct, learning when and where to use them is fairly complex.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sinlea View Post
    edit: You may have noticed I didn't mention divine light/flash of light. On my skill level, their mana cost just doesn't seem to match healing. Unless tank is on fire (or I get legendary meta proc!) and I need that healing (and holy power from beacon), I prefer not to use those at all. With holy light having 100% transfer over beacon it's just more efficient to make it your major heal - plus it barely moves your mana bar.
    Divine Light and Flash of Light are both better fillers than Holy Light.

    Holy Light is not worth the mana cost and cast time unless you have absolutely nothing else to do, in which case please drop that third healer.
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  5. #5
    I'm sorry if you were under impression that I intended this to be guide - it's not. I even specifically mentioned that I'm not skilled or experienced holy paladin. I didn't invest much time into holy paladin - it's offspec for me, which I use for occasional flex or lfr relaxed runs. I merely wanted to show that, even on basic level and with such mistakes it can still perform quite well, and that despite this there is still depth in holy spec.

    That being said I greatly appreciate your tips, will help me a lot with becoming better healer. Thanks!

    edit:

    One question actually, on matter of preshielding. I meant it as precaution on pull, for example on Malkorok (so that this first hit tank get before getting encounter shield generated is absorbed). Or on any other fight really - why exactly is it a bad thing? I'm not trying to actively stack shield on topped targets during fight, but I don't really get what's the harm in getting one up before - it's not like I'm using procs or mana this way prepull?
    Last edited by Sinlea; 2014-02-15 at 01:01 PM.

  6. #6
    Herald of the Titans Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    This is terrible advice. CS is an awful skill for all (holy paladin-based)specs and shouldn't ever be touched, least of which with the SoI nerf.
    There's a lot of guides online that contradict this statement and my own (amateurish) personal experience is that cheesing CS whenever I can get away with melee-camping makes everything feel smoother because of the massive extra HP income, since EF feels so much more effective than everything else I do.

    Curious about your reasoning for being so anti-CS.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    There's a lot of guides online that contradict this statement and my own (amateurish) personal experience is that cheesing CS whenever I can get away with melee-camping makes everything feel smoother because of the massive extra HP income, since EF feels so much more effective than everything else I do.

    Curious about your reasoning for being so anti-CS.
    It costs a large amount of mana, does 0 healing and has a very high miss/dodge chance.

  8. #8
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    I don't think anybody can claim any spec is easy unless they have driven the spec through the hardest ontent in the game. Healing through LFR or normals and going PSHWAA is hardly stressing yourself as a healer.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinlea View Post
    One question actually, on matter of preshielding. I meant it as precaution on pull, for example on Malkorok (so that this first hit tank get before getting encounter shield generated is absorbed). Or on any other fight really - why exactly is it a bad thing? I'm not trying to actively stack shield on topped targets during fight, but I don't really get what's the harm in getting one up before - it's not like I'm using procs or mana this way prepull?
    Preshielding in that case is fine, try beaconing the tank who's going first, then hitting Holy Shock -> Divine Light -> EF -> Repeat.

    Don't forget to switch your trinket slots(i.e. dragging your first trinket slot to the second trinket slot to trigger a 30 seconds ICD).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    There's a lot of guides online that contradict this statement and my own (amateurish) personal experience is that cheesing CS whenever I can get away with melee-camping makes everything feel smoother because of the massive extra HP income, since EF feels so much more effective than everything else I do.

    Curious about your reasoning for being so anti-CS.
    Elaborating on what Xs has said, CS costs 10588 mana on average per holy power generated with the skill(if you miss you don't generate holy power). That's already approximately half of Holy Radiance's mana cost, except HR does so much more healing and triggers Daybreak for even more healing.

    You would also have to track if CS landed and thus have extra work to do to track when and where you can use your finishers.

    P.S.

    Those guides you have mentioned are probably outdated, or forgot to update the state of viability of CS this tier.
    Last edited by PosPosPos; 2014-02-15 at 04:42 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    I don't think anybody can claim any spec is easy unless they have driven the spec through the hardest ontent in the game. Healing through LFR or normals and going PSHWAA is hardly stressing yourself as a healer.
    This is correct as is PosPosPos on almost all points he made here.

    All Paladins at this point heavily revolve around their Holy Power finishers which means you also need to be good at generating and managing it, no? Since there's 2 "extra" Holy Power you can bank up to 5 if you need instead of just spamming at 3, which requires very little (but some) thinking...

    But Priest healers have other things to worry about. The two classes while they are both "Holy" magic healers (versus the 3 nature healers) are very different just like playing druid and shaman are extremely different despite them both being "Nature" healers. Can't really compare like that.

  11. #11
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Healing is general has been dumbed down and no healer is really difficult to play imo. And in reality people will throw terms such as "faceroll" at every class they feel is doing better than them.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Healing is general has been dumbed down and no healer is really difficult to play imo. And in reality people will throw terms such as "faceroll" at every class they feel is doing better than them.
    Freia, I was actually having this discussion with my CM group last night as which "role" was the hardest, and I was surprised that many of our DPS believe healing to be (my view was that DPS was the hardest).

    Overall IMO one requirement though to be a good healer, is ability to anticipate and cover for others' mistakes. During progress mistakes will always happen and there will always be "tough spots," being able to cover those with some "extra" work is really important for any role but especially healing. Yes, it's "not your fault" if you didn't put extra pre-shields on the guy who likes to stand in things and you wipe, but IMO not being able to anticipate that stuff (including pointing out, post-attempt, who does need to improve) does not a good healer make.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Elaborating on what Xs has said, CS costs 10588 mana on average per holy power generated with the skill(if you miss you don't generate holy power). That's already approximately half of Holy Radiance's mana cost, except HR does so much more healing and triggers Daybreak for even more healing.

    You would also have to track if CS landed and thus have extra work to do to track when and where you can use your finishers.
    If CS doesn't land I don't gain an HP pip, which seems clear enough to me. :p Beyond that, what you're saying makes sense objectively and is why I historically avoided CS, but after trying it I found it felt a lot better.

    I'm specifically referring to low/medium-damage situations where it feels cheaper and faster for coating people in EF; I feel like my mana drops faster using DL/HR than keeping a tight CS/HS cycle. As damage ramps up I drop CS because I can't afford the GCDs and I need actual healing going out.

    My logic is that if:
    • You would end the fight with Mana to spare either way, and
    • No one will die from that GCD being used on a strike,
    then it seems like a good way to fill time.

    For example I use this when pushing Proving Grounds along with Divine Purpose or HA to keep constant EFs rolling on everyone, stabilizing the tank and minimizing stress from AoE bursts (since everyone is spread out). The extra HP income is noticeable and trying to sit at range and use HR or DL for HP feels like I lose Mana way faster (to little gain).

    Anyway, that's been my experience — CS feels useful and productive for HP cheesing during low/medium periods and for milking while HA is active. I understand you're pushing a different level of content than I do (I don't do Heroics while they're progression or other edge-content) and HPally is strictly an alt for me, so I'm happy to be corrected or learn better methods.
    Last edited by Lovestar; 2014-02-16 at 02:59 AM.

  14. #14
    High Overlord Berianther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    For example I use this when pushing Proving Grounds along with Divine Purpose or HA to keep constant EFs rolling on everyone, stabilizing the tank and minimizing stress from AoE bursts (since everyone is spread out). The extra HP income is noticeable and trying to sit at range and use HR or DL for HP feels like I lose Mana way faster (to little gain).
    Proving Grounds aren't raid boss and thus you don't get the full miss/parry/dodge chance.
    Anyways, if you mess up and get silenced on Thok, you can CS since you wont be able to heal at that time.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    My logic is that if:
    • You would end the fight with Mana to spare either way, and
    • No one will die from that GCD being used on a strike,
    then it seems like a good way to fill time.
    If you generate a HP from crusader strike it is like doing a 1HP Eternal Flame. So lets compare that with other options such as Holy Radiance or Holy Light.

    1HP EF will do about 140k healing when considering direct healing, mastery, beacon transfer and subtraction of typical over-healing. This for 9000 mana with a 15% chance to miss. So lets say 119k healing or 13.2 healing per mana and 108k hps.

    Holy Light heals for about 109k healing considering the above. This costs 7560 mana. Doesn't generate a HP. Totals 14.4 healing per mana and 59k HPS.

    Holy Radiance heals for 173k healing considering the above stats on 6 targets. Costs 21600 mana and generates a HP(140k) AND daybreak a proc(47k). The total healing contribution of HR will be 360k healing. This ends up being 16.7 healing per mana and 195k HPS.

    Let's be crazy and go a step further. So what if you just didn't cast for the duration of a CS gcd? Since CS costs 9k mana you would be "banking" it for a future Holy Radiance. That 9k mana is worth 150k healing if spent on a holy radiance. So do you want to spend 9k mana to do 119k healing or do you want to "save it" for a HR and do 150k healing? So for periods of low damage, trying to conserve mana, you are better off not casting and when you do, cast a HR because CS is a loss in HPS and MPS.
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  16. #16
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    Yeah, I get why it makes sense mathematically, I'm not arguing that on-paper it's the 'wrong' idea. More, I find it feels smoother in practice and I'm trying to understand why, since I trust HPallies that are actually raiding progression to know much better than I do.

    Would any of these things bring up the value of inserting CS?
    • Low Spirit levels
    • Inability to hit full target cap with HR
    • Need to have people pre-EF'd, but no/minor actual healing required right this moment, so HR overheals

    I'm happy to discard my CS/HS/CS/HS/CS/HS > EF EF EF EF EF EF EF EF EF style if I'm doing it wrong, haha. I just want to understand the correct alternative and why it's 'working' for me (when it shouldn't, apparently).

    Quote Originally Posted by Berianther View Post
    Proving Grounds aren't raid boss and thus you don't get the full miss/parry/dodge chance.
    I think they do, because a lot of the nastier enemies are level 93. Some are 92. Although Parry should be zero since I would never CS from the front of something if I'm not Prot. :p

    ---

    Edit:
    I tried taking CS off the bar (as an experiment) and just deliberately doing nothing or casting moslty-pointless 'top-up' / 'tidy-up' Holy Lights when HS is cooling, then using Holy Avenger to handle sections where I suddenly want / anticipate wanting lots of EFs on everyone.

    Results:
    • Much more mana available (sometimes letting DPlea sit off CD because it simply wasn't needed yet)
    • Near-zero net change in damage-repair patterns
    • Much less positioning pressure on me

    I guess most of the 'benefit' of the extra HP wasn't actually going to practical use, since HA can cover pre-EF'ing, and for other wide/constant damage there's either enough clumps of people to just use HR (productively) or the tank is taking enough damage that it's worth dumping a few DLs or FoLs (depending on pressure) to get up a few more EFs as needed.

    It's just a lot more boring. Staring at the wall or casting HL is so bland compared to the fun of dancing around behind the boss smacking CS.

    But... yeah... I have to admit this does feel more effective and a lot easier on mana supply. I hope I can find at least some situations that justify CS'ing, it's fun.

    Thanks for the insight.
    Last edited by Lovestar; 2014-02-17 at 01:27 AM.

  17. #17
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    But... yeah... I have to admit this does feel more effective and a lot easier on mana supply. I hope I can find at least some situations that justify CS'ing, it's fun.
    CS was usable back when Seal of Insight giving mana return was a thing, but they removed it for that reason and tied it to spirit instead.

    Problem is, it forced "scumbag" melee on fights where it was undesirable to be there (megaera, primordius to an extent), and also made paladins far better on fights where you could be in melee (ra-den).

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