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  1. #1

    Question Do iLv and Achievements Hurt PUGing? Good and the Bad Opinions

    I've always had the ideal, especially in WoW or any game for that matter that gear does not make a good player good. Now obviously gear does help make a good player be better at what they're doing, and normally gear is a symbol of progression, but if there's one thing I've noticed is how recently many people are looking for high iLv players to do normal SoO, even flex, asking for iLvs up to 550. Here's the issue though, if you average out flex gear, it'll be around 540, and even normal of the previous ToT, that's 522, and take it a step further to herioc which is 535. So the question is, how can people meet the requirements of said PUG group? Mind you my raid experience has been nearly every HM during Wrath while it was current.

    Now I say this because I recently came back from taking a break away from the game, and coming back I have ran into this ever growing speed bump, at least for myself. I have noticed that when I do join PUGs that even people with the higher iLv then myself, or even achievements showing that they have completed said content still can be just as bad as any other player. Recently did a flex Garrosh fight, and the group I was with had experienced the raid before, and people continued to die to raid mechanics (we did finally kill the boss though). There's also been several occasions of being higher on damage meters then higher iLv players. (Mind you I don't care to stroke my damage numbers, I only use it to make sure I'm keeping up or doing what I should be doing.)

    The point I'm trying to get at here though it seems to me that people are asking for people who have completed said content in the assumption that they will be good, but not giving the person that they believe will fail, also out of assumption. As for the iLv, how are said players supposed to come by gear if the requirement is out of reach?

    As I have said though, iLv and achievements to request from a player does show that they've made progression on a character. That in hopes they know what they're doing, and that's about all the benefit I can see from it, but seeing as how my experiences have been with SoO with Flex and Normal, I question more and more why people bother putting said speed bump in.

    What are peoples thoughts on this?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Roamingstorm View Post

    What are peoples thoughts on this?
    That you should use the search function. This topic really has been flogged to death.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    That you should use the search function. This topic really has been flogged to death.
    This. Also, GearScore.

  4. #4
    On my iLevel ~489ish DK tank I was doing some instances to earn JP to buy some Heirlooms and yesterday I gut pulled into one (ended up doing two back to back with him) that had what must have been an iLevel 550+ geared Fury Warrior. There was no way I could tank, and he didn't even let me, nor did he complain about me not tanking. At first I was annoyed as I couldn't do my role, but then I second thought that. I wasn't there to do the instances for fun, I was there to do two as fast as I could to get the JP I needed for a 3500jp 2H weapon for my leveling Pally and he wasn't complaining, just tearing through the instance so....all good. I did my best to help, but mainly I just let him carry the rest of us.

    So I would say it depends on the attitude of the geared player.

  5. #5
    Brewmaster Banzhe's Avatar
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    A) You can have a player in 560 gear doing 100k output (dps or healer)

    B) You can have another player in 500 gear doing the exact same.

    Without even thinking twice about it, I'd take the lower geared person based on personal experience, that such a player general knows his class better, and 9/10 will have superior awareness to the other player.

    Do Ilvl and achievements hurt pugs? Damn straight it does, people have fooled themselves into thinking either translates into a good player.
    Not that I care really as I don't do pugs at all, sticking to guild runs

  6. #6
    The Warrior in my example was doing 300-360k DPS.

  7. #7
    Before that players would get individually inspected and even quizzed in particular if they didnt have gear showing proof of experience. Achievements is a better form of proof to one completing content and in the case of forged achievements there is always online checking. Ilvl showing is a necessary information for a player to have due to having random queue features that keep under geared players from accessing content with the system. If a player didnt know their ilvl relevant to the requirements then a player would be left to guess. Ilvl is an okay method to get a quick look of a characters potential power and any further inquiry is best done with an inspection.

    These things make the act of filtering and filling a group faster and less of a burden for those who are leading groups. Such things might lead to not only more people starting their own PuGs, but also help get PuGs off the ground and starting faster before players start bailing.

    We do have proving grounds, but I havent seen players make use of that especially with not many knowing expected benchmarks for each class and spec due to imbalances in the system. Overall though there really isnt anything else widely available or even used by players to show proof of competency and performance to people who dont know you. Many of the so called "bloated" requirements leaders will make is due to players who fail to perform. If it wasnt such an issue then group leaders wouldnt need to be bloating their requirements as an attempt to counter the lead weight.

    It is a gable every time and raid leaders along with other team members of the group have other things to do in life and are not running a charity. People who value their time and the time of others are going to be looking for ways to help reduce risks that lead to failed groups.

    The performance swings are large and generally always have been. Stick me in LFR gear and I would likely still top the meters of the vast majority of LFR and Flex players in heroic gear despite claims of there being an enormous stat gap that LFRs QQ about. I have cheated ilvl requirements and have out performed normal mode raiders with better gear than I. A legendary is only going to do so much for someone. If they only do half the potential output of their gear then so will their gains. Throwing gear at lackluster/lazy players only does so much against such levels of diminishing returns. Same with people who fuss over so much with reforging and geming. Simulators are largely based on near perfect play in a sterile environment that you will never see similar outside of patchwork.

    Gear is only part of a metric. Until we have in game past history performance metrics available, all we can rely on is what we can see and hope.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2014-02-16 at 11:46 PM.

  8. #8
    The way i see it is this....u cannot blame the player base for this aslong as who ever is asking for something lives up to what his asking for. Then there is nothing u can do about it other than realise the run wasnt ment for u

    What have caused this problem tho is that the gearing up system is so bad right now compared to Before. When i mean bad, i mean slow.

    Ive never had any problems with not being able to join a grp because of Ilvl tho but this implies that u were there since day 1 to not miss any save.

    I Think the system sucks, it worked great in Cata with they making new 5 man dungeons with every new patch with competable gear.

    I belive they changed it because they didnt want people to be able to reroll so fast

    In every story ive Heard about, this is always the background to the problem
    "Now I say this because I recently came back from taking a break away from the game, and coming back I have ran into this ever growing speed bump, at least for myself. "
    Last edited by Spoonman; 2014-02-17 at 12:44 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Roamingstorm View Post
    I've always had the ideal, especially in WoW or any game for that matter that gear does not make a good player good. Now obviously gear does help make a good player be better at what they're doing, and normally gear is a symbol of progression, but if there's one thing I've noticed is how recently many people are looking for high iLv players to do normal SoO, even flex, asking for iLvs up to 550. Here's the issue though, if you average out flex gear, it'll be around 540, and even normal of the previous ToT, that's 522, and take it a step further to herioc which is 535. So the question is, how can people meet the requirements of said PUG group? Mind you my raid experience has been nearly every HM during Wrath while it was current.

    Now I say this because I recently came back from taking a break away from the game, and coming back I have ran into this ever growing speed bump, at least for myself. I have noticed that when I do join PUGs that even people with the higher iLv then myself, or even achievements showing that they have completed said content still can be just as bad as any other player. Recently did a flex Garrosh fight, and the group I was with had experienced the raid before, and people continued to die to raid mechanics (we did finally kill the boss though). There's also been several occasions of being higher on damage meters then higher iLv players. (Mind you I don't care to stroke my damage numbers, I only use it to make sure I'm keeping up or doing what I should be doing.)

    The point I'm trying to get at here though it seems to me that people are asking for people who have completed said content in the assumption that they will be good, but not giving the person that they believe will fail, also out of assumption. As for the iLv, how are said players supposed to come by gear if the requirement is out of reach?

    As I have said though, iLv and achievements to request from a player does show that they've made progression on a character. That in hopes they know what they're doing, and that's about all the benefit I can see from it, but seeing as how my experiences have been with SoO with Flex and Normal, I question more and more why people bother putting said speed bump in.

    What are peoples thoughts on this?
    its been like this for years, dunno whats new to you about this if you been raiding in wrath.

    achievements and gear dont prove how good a player is , but they still somewhat prove experience.
    if you are 550+ ilvl with normal garrosh achievement, then you most likely cleared the place at least once and know how to do mechanics. doesnt mean you are good, but at least the raid leader isnt gonna have to waste time explaining the fights to you.

    also, the bad player in 550 ilvl is still gonna do twice or more the damage of the bad player in 500 ilvl

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    Before that players would get individually inspected and even quizzed in particular if they didnt have gear showing proof of experience. Achievements is a better form of proof to one completing content and in the case of forged achievements there is always online checking. Ilvl showing is a necessary information for a player to have due to having random queue features that keep under geared players from accessing content with the system. If a player didnt know their ilvl relevant to the requirements then a player would be left to guess. Ilvl is an okay method to get a quick look of a characters potential power and any further inquiry is best done with an inspection.

    These things make the act of filtering and filling a group faster and less of a burden for those who are leading groups. Such things might lead to not only more people starting their own PuGs, but also help get PuGs off the ground and starting faster before players start bailing.

    We do have proving grounds, but I havent seen players make use of that especially with not many knowing expected benchmarks for each class and spec due to imbalances in the system. Overall though there really isnt anything else widely available or even used by players to show proof of competency and performance to people who dont know you. Many of the so called "bloated" requirements leaders will make is due to players who fail to perform. If it wasnt such an issue then group leaders wouldnt need to be bloating their requirements as an attempt to counter the lead weight.

    It is a gable every time and raid leaders along with other team members of the group have other things to do in life and are not running a charity. People who value their time and the time of others are going to be looking for ways to help reduce risks that lead to failed groups.

    The performance swings are large and generally always have been. Stick me in LFR gear and I would likely still top the meters of the vast majority of LFR and Flex players in heroic gear despite claims of there being an enormous stat gap that LFRs QQ about. I have cheated ilvl requirements and have out performed normal mode raiders with better gear than I. A legendary is only going to do so much for someone. If they only do half the potential output of their gear then so will their gains. Throwing gear at lackluster/lazy players only does so much against such levels of diminishing returns. Same with people who fuss over so much with reforging and geming. Simulators are largely based on near perfect play in a sterile environment that you will never see similar outside of patchwork.

    Gear is only part of a metric. Until we have in game past history performance metrics available, all we can rely on is what we can see and hope.
    I agree. There really needs to be something in the game that allows players to see the players actual progression similar to what the WoW armory does. Since that will tell you what they've completed via LFR, FLex, Normal, and Heroic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
    The way i see it is this....u cannot blame the player base for this aslong as who ever is asking for something lives up to what his asking for. Then there is nothing u can do about it other than realise the run wasnt ment for u

    What have caused this problem tho is that the gearing up system is so bad right now compared to Before. When i mean bad, i mean slow.

    Ive never had any problems with not being able to join a grp because of Ilvl tho but this implies that u were there since day 1 to not miss any save.

    I Think the system sucks, it worked great in Cata with they making new 5 man dungeons with every new patch with competable gear.

    I belive they changed it because they didnt want people to be able to reroll so fast

    In every story ive Heard about, this is always the background to the problem
    "Now I say this because I recently came back from taking a break away from the game, and coming back I have ran into this ever growing speed bump, at least for myself. "
    Now don't get me wrong, taking a break I'm meaning I stopped after the guild I was in killed Ji'Kun the first time in ToT, and then hit a really hard burn out of the game. So this isn't to say I've been gone the whole expansion.

    Now one thing I can't agree on is the gearing too fast, mainly because if you look at Timeless Isle you don't even have to be on alt to even acquire the gear to there.

    The main annoyance I run into is a situation someone is asking for people with 545+. Now I mention I'm only 543, but have had experience 8/14 normal and 14/14 on flex, and just wouldn't care. Now, in no way shape or form am I saying they're in the wrong, because as nekobaka said, it's an easy and quick way to determine who to bring, it just would be nice if there was something in game that people could look at. I will say this though, that in the runs I have been in, people have looked me up on the armory and then have invited me.

  11. #11
    Mechagnome
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    If you had no Achievements or ilvl the average quality of a flex run would be like lfr and we all know how dreadfully bad LFR can be. Although you are a person with a brain Ilvl, Achievements wont stop you. You can download addons that fake achievements and who will actually checks the armory for Ilvl? If they want 540+ you can tell them 530 (When you are 520) and link a fake achievement and unless the guy is getting tons of whispers you will most likely get invited (If you are a tank or a healer you can sneak in worse geared). This is like week 1 once you get a few drops and pass the 540s nobody cares anymore.

    BIG TIPS FOR NEW PLAYERS: Run HoF, MSV or pref ToT normal 25 man and you will just get a shit ton of loot with a reset of lfr gear that will be more than enough to get you into flex 1.

    Also the bigger the raid the smaller the chance that someone will inspect you

  12. #12
    The Lightbringer Mokoshne's Avatar
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    The Ilvl inflation in this game is ridiculous at the moment.

    You can ding a fresh 90, go to timeless isle, collect a full set of gear and then be declined to do Flex runs with your guild or pug because you dont have 535+. You need 535 minimum to even do anything. Its a massive speed bump that hurts the game.
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  13. #13
    If you want an effect and fast run I would most likely take only people with gear and experience but if it's for the guild or whatever beginners are just fine.

  14. #14
    Epic! icausewipes's Avatar
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    Really bad players that cannot think on their own look at ilvl and achieves. They read some heavy vomit guild did it "this way" and suddenly every fan girl clinging to their nuts won't accept anything else.


    /itsnotviable
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  15. #15
    Herald of the Titans Valyrian Stormclaw's Avatar
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    People ask for Ilevels because they don't just wanna have four 430, inexperienced people waltz into their PuG for SoO normal. Generally, the I levels are pretty much just a deterant to keep the LFR people out. I've been in several PuGs that completed SoO normal with an average group ilevel of 550 or less.

  16. #16
    Ilvl is good, if you want something you better work for it or make your own group.

    There are so many lazy people who wants to get carries, and its good there are ways to weed them out.
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  17. #17
    I like to think of ilvl on gear in the roof and jumping scenario, that Ilvl is how high the roof is but player experience and there effort will be how high they can jump to touch that roof. I Ignore achievements now because I've met many a bad player with the relevant achievement for the raid, but equally many a good player that don't have the achievements .

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    Ilvl is good, if you want something you better work for it or make your own group.

    There are so many lazy people who wants to get carries, and its good there are ways to weed them out.
    it´s good to weed out those whose ilvl can´t allow them to pull the dps you require.
    i think they should make the highest ilvl(and progress) of your main char visible on any of your chars on armory. would make identifying good players on alts/not so geared chars easier

  19. #19
    Brewmaster Anzen's Avatar
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    I think the whole 'people with low gear can outdps people with high gear' argument gets wayyy overused and is almost irrelevant to the point.

    The Facts:

    Having a higher Item Level does increase damage.
    Having a higher Item Level does increase healing.
    Having a higher Item Level does increase survivability.

    Just because sometimes you get a terribad in good gear, or you get a pro in terrible gear doesn't make the points above any more irrelevant. You can't 'skill-check' people (well to an extent, I think achievements are somewhat useful for this) and so item level becomes the best metric.

    All asking for high item level and achievements does is isolate those with low item level and no achievements.

  20. #20
    It's all about making certain that your group can get through something as quickly and efficiently as possible. Of course, there are always exceptions. I've been in Flex PuGs that asked for an ilvl of 525 and cleared the wing way faster and better than groups asking for 540 ilvl.

    For anyone having trouble finding a group that accepts someone of your ilvl, it's extremely easy these days to just make a group of your own and asking for what you believe is a more appropriate ilvl.

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