View Poll Results: What is the probability that the Tinker can be the next class ( IYO)

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  • 0%

    660 52.38%
  • 0-10%

    189 15.00%
  • 10-20%

    58 4.60%
  • 20-30%

    51 4.05%
  • 30-40%

    30 2.38%
  • 40-50%

    58 4.60%
  • 50-60%

    48 3.81%
  • 60-70%

    34 2.70%
  • 70-80%

    38 3.02%
  • 80-90%

    25 1.98%
  • 90-100%

    69 5.48%
  1. #2201
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Shooting a rocket" is not the same effect, because Cluster Rocket shoots several rockets.

    Also I'm pretty sure that Trinket you're talking about no longer exists.
    ..wow. What a difference. I take back my answer. You got me tinkerbell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simulatio View Post
    A handful of people nut-busting about it on various forums does not equal popularity, and popularity does not equal good design.

  2. #2202
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I read this, and I laugh so damn much at the irony...
    Same name, similar ability, reasonable cooldown

    vs.

    Different name, item enchant, long cooldown, dissimilar ability.

    Surely you can see the difference?

  3. #2203
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Same name, similar ability, reasonable cooldown

    vs.

    Different name, item enchant, long cooldown, dissimilar ability.

    Surely you can see the difference?
    They both shoot a rockets. You want to see rockets from engineering there you go. I could give a fuck about cooldowns and names. Same effect. Get over it. Engineers are tinkers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simulatio View Post
    A handful of people nut-busting about it on various forums does not equal popularity, and popularity does not equal good design.

  4. #2204
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Shooting a rocket" is not the same effect, because Cluster Rocket shoots several rockets.
    Also I'm pretty sure that Trinket you're talking about no longer exists.
    It is only 'multiple rockets' graphic wise. It is a single entity. One miss, all rockets miss.

  5. #2205
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukhoi View Post
    They both shoot a rockets. You want to see rockets from engineering there you go. I could give a fuck about cooldowns and names. Same effect. Get over it. Engineers are tinkers.
    Well actually that's incorrect. One shoots A rocket. The other shoots a cluster of rockets.

    Hence why one is called Hand-Mounted Pyro Rocket, while the other is called Cluster Rocket.

    Furthermore, the Tinker ability was called Cluster Rocket, and it was an AoE damage attack. Thus the representative of Cluster Rocket in WoW is Cluster Rocket.

  6. #2206
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well actually that's incorrect. One shoots A rocket. The other shoots a cluster of rockets.

    Hence why one is called Hand-Mounted Pyro Rocket, while the other is called Cluster Rocket.

    Furthermore, the Tinker ability was called Cluster Rocket, and it was an AoE damage attack. Thus the representative of Cluster Rocket in WoW is Cluster Rocket.
    The truth hurts. I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simulatio View Post
    A handful of people nut-busting about it on various forums does not equal popularity, and popularity does not equal good design.

  7. #2207
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It is only 'multiple rockets' graphic wise. It is a single entity. One miss, all rockets miss.
    Which doesn't change the fact that one is AoE and one is single target.

    I mean seriously dude, just stop.

  8. #2208
    What was the last word from Blizz on Tinkers?

    Surely if you have enough time to reply to almost every post in this thread you must of pestered them on Twitter until you got some sort of answer?

    I still think there is 0% chance currently, like the other 600+ people, but that's just me, well it isn't, but you get it.

  9. #2209
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
    Which doesn't change the fact that one is AoE and one is single target.
    I mean seriously dude, just stop.
    Stop? Why? Just because we're finding holes in your and Teriz' arguments? Also, here's your 'AoE' damage: Rocket!!
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2014-03-19 at 06:18 AM.

  10. #2210
    Quote Originally Posted by Toiran View Post
    What was the last word from Blizz on Tinkers?

    Surely if you have enough time to reply to almost every post in this thread you must of pestered them on Twitter until you got some sort of answer?

    I still think there is 0% chance currently, like the other 600+ people, but that's just me, well it isn't, but you get it.
    Well this was the last

    Originally Posted by Greg Street
    Not sure. Might be a little too whimsical for WoW. Would depend on the treatment.

  11. #2211
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There is no evasion. The point is that profession and class thematic overlap means nothing.
    It means everything because Goblin Tinker unit already exists in WoW, as an engineering skill instead of class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually almost all have. The ones who haven't have becomes aspects of existing WoW classes. The only ones who haven't participated in this process are the Goblin Tinker and the Goblin Alchemist. The last WC3 hero unit who was in a similar position: The Brewmaster.
    Speaking of WC3 hero units
    Paladin : made into WoW class
    Archmage : not gonna happen, it's just a mage title
    Mountain King : not gonna happen, it's dwarf warrior
    Blood Mage : not gonna happen, it's blood elf mage
    Blademaster : not gonna happen, it's orc warrior
    Far Seer : not gonna happen, it's orc shaman
    Tauren Chieftain: not gonna happen, it's tauren warrior
    Shadow Hunter : not gonna happen, it's just troll hunter with bit of extra flavor found in alchemist profession
    ...
    Goblin Alchemist : not gonna happen, it's part of generic alchemy skill along with several other units/heroes like Shadow Hunter
    Goblin Tinker : not gonna happen, it was turned into engineering skil
    Dark Ranger : not gonna happen, it's just hunter with some abilities that went to warlock class

    Not gonna bother going through whole list but the point remains... Most of WC3 heroes will not turn into WoW classes, it's the basic units where the core classes come from with the exception of paladin, death knight and monk so far. I honestly don't see full-blown class potential in any of the common suggestions of Demon Hunter, Dark Ranger or Tinker because all of those heroes flavor already exists in other classes. If there's going to be new classes, those will be something totally new and only touching old ideas like the monk was with one of the three talent trees only coming from WC3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well actually that's incorrect. One shoots A rocket. The other shoots a cluster of rockets.

    Hence why one is called Hand-Mounted Pyro Rocket, while the other is called Cluster Rocket.

    Furthermore, the Tinker ability was called Cluster Rocket, and it was an AoE damage attack. Thus the representative of Cluster Rocket in WoW is Cluster Rocket.
    While you keep arguing with semantics (in this case what the abilities are called, not what they actually do) and fail to admit the hypothetical tinker class and the existing engineering skill are thematically the same this conversation is going nowhere.

  12. #2212
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Stop? Why? Just because we're finding holes in your and Teriz' arguments? Also, here's your 'AoE' damage: Rocket!!
    Blatantly ignoring a fact and repeating that blatant ignorance over and over again isn't finding holes in people's arguments man. In fact, it's something else entirely, and it does little to elevate the conversation.

    Like your post here for example; Why are you trying so desperately to link Cluster Rocket to items that are clearly not Cluster Rocket? What's even more embarrassing about this is that Teriz already showed you an ability actually called Cluster Rocket that actually resembles the Tinker ability.

    You compound that nonsense with hypocrisy, because I distinctly remember Teriz pointing out WC3 abilities to you that appeared in the classes, and you repeatedly denied that those abilities were similar, were representations of the ability in WoW, or were even related to those abilities at all.

    Elusive Brawler doesn't represent Drunken Brawler (when we KNOW that Blizzard changed the name), yet the Hand Mounted Pyro Rocket and the G1 Landshark represents Cluster Rocket?

    Again, that isn't finding holes in people's arguments. Quite the opposite actually.
    Last edited by Rhamses; 2014-03-19 at 09:07 AM.

  13. #2213
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    It means everything because Goblin Tinker unit already exists in WoW, as an engineering skill instead of class.
    So where's the Goblin Tinker's abilities in Engineering?

    Speaking of WC3 hero units
    Paladin : made into WoW class
    Archmage : not gonna happen, it's just a mage title
    Which is why its abilities wound up in the Mage class.

    Mountain King : not gonna happen, it's dwarf warrior
    Which is why its abilities went to Warriors.

    Blood Mage : not gonna happen, it's blood elf mage
    Which is why its abilities went to Mages and Warlocks.

    Blademaster : not gonna happen, it's orc warrior
    Which is why its ultimate went to Warriors, Mirror Image went to Mages, and Windwalk (Stealth) went to Rogues.

    Far Seer : not gonna happen, it's orc shaman
    Which is why its abilities went to Shaman.

    Tauren Chieftain: not gonna happen, it's tauren warrior
    Which is why its abilities went to Warriors, Shaman, and the Tauren racial ability.

    Shadow Hunter : not gonna happen, it's just troll hunter with bit of extra flavor found in alchemist profession
    Nope, just a Shaman with a throwing weapon. Which is why 3/4 of its abilities are in the Shaman class.

    Goblin Alchemist : not gonna happen, it's part of generic alchemy skill along with several other units/heroes like Shadow Hunter
    Then where are the Goblin Alchemist's abilities within Alchemy?

    Goblin Tinker : not gonna happen, it was turned into engineering skil
    Same question. Where's the Tinker skills in Engineering?

    Dark Ranger : not gonna happen, it's just hunter with some abilities that went to warlock class
    Now you're getting it.

    Not gonna bother going through whole list but the point remains... Most of WC3 heroes will not turn into WoW classes, it's the basic units where the core classes come from with the exception of paladin, death knight and monk so far. I honestly don't see full-blown class potential in any of the common suggestions of Demon Hunter, Dark Ranger or Tinker because all of those heroes flavor already exists in other classes. If there's going to be new classes, those will be something totally new and only touching old ideas like the monk was with one of the three talent trees only coming from WC3.
    The hero itself doesn't need to come from WC3, only the abilities. If the class is a generic RPG class, then Blizzard will split up several related WC3 ability sets up in order to facilitate the class. For example, the Warrior, the Mage and the Rogue received abilities from several classes. On the other hand, the Druid, Death a Knight, Shaman, and Warlock only received abilities from Druid, Shaman, Undead, and Warlock based units and heroes.

    Finally, we had classes which were more direct translations of the WC3 heroes; The Priest, the Paladin, and the Monk. They were only sourced from one WC3 unit.

    Where does that leave the last two unused hero units? Since their abilities don't exist in the classes or the professions, yet we know that they exist within WoW, then the only conclusion we could draw is that Blizzard is either saving them for something, or not going to use them at all. Considering that there's going to be at least one more class in WoW, and the Tinker and Alchemist hero just happens to fall into an unused class thematic, I find the second conclusion highly unlikely.

    While you keep arguing with semantics (in this case what the abilities are called, not what they actually do) and fail to admit the hypothetical tinker class and the existing engineering skill are thematically the same this conversation is going nowhere.
    Read my response again buddy. My argument is BASED on what Cluster Rocket can do. Hand-Mounted Pyro Rocket works differently, has a different name, and has a different effect. How can it be the same thing?
    Last edited by Teriz; 2014-03-19 at 10:33 AM.

  14. #2214
    I don't think that will happen, not soon anyway. There are several reasons why Tinkers (and others) could ('should') become a class in WoW, but there are thousands of more reasons why Tinkers (and others) will probably not become a class any time soon.

  15. #2215
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Where does that leave the last two unused hero units? Since their abilities don't exist in the classes or the professions, yet we know that they exist within WoW, then the only conclusion we could draw is that Blizzard is either saving them for something, or not going to use them at all. Considering that there's going to be at least one more class in WoW, and the Tinker and Alchemist hero just happens to fall into an unused class thematic, I find the second conclusion highly unlikely.
    Both tinker and alchemist are already used as professions, not classes. There's very little actual design space left to add more classes into WoW without overlapping with the existing ones big time while still sticking to the fantasy cliches more or less. Odds are more likely that there will not be any new class added from old WC games for that very reason, and maybe not any class at all since so far adding classes has been huge clusterfuck of balancing nightmare. 11 classes and 34 specs is already a lot.

    Especially something like tinker would be the biggest headache ever for designers which is one more reason it's definitely not coming. Just think of how big pain engineering has been over the years for the game balancing effort to make it useful and not totally OP in PvP. For the same reason any class that occupies the same thematic space (creating toys to do stuff for him) would be a nightmare to balance.

    Most likely tinker and alchemist were dropped to profession instead of class because those tend towards "support" playstyle which doesn't exist in WoW as a party role.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Read my response again buddy. My argument is BASED on what Cluster Rocket can do. Hand-Mounted Pyro Rocket works differently, has a different name, and has a different effect. How can it be the same thing?
    You still don't get the difference between theme and anal-retentive nitpicking.

    Cluster Rocket does aoe stun and aoe damage, both effects exists in multiple classes already. also for engineers in some form. If you're looking for identical abilities you wont find everything even from basic classes that would map directly between WoW and WC3, but when you start looking at the effects instead of numbers "rockets falling from the sky dealing damage" you do find the exact same effect from current engineering skill.

  16. #2216
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toiran View Post
    What was the last word from Blizz on Tinkers?

    Surely if you have enough time to reply to almost every post in this thread you must of pestered them on Twitter until you got some sort of answer?
    The last word from Blizzard on Tinkers is that their implementation would depend on their tone. Which is far more favorable than the overlap problem they expressed with Demon Hunters, and the "too soft" argument they made with Bards.

    That goes well with my belief that there simply is no other option. Every other option either has no place in the Warcraft universe, or is too similar to existing classes.

    I still think there is 0% chance currently, like the other 600+ people, but that's just me, well it isn't, but you get it.
    52% feel that there is no chance. 48% feels that there is a chance.

    You think that's an overwhelming majority?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    Both tinker and alchemist are already used as professions, not classes. There's very little actual design space left to add more classes into WoW without overlapping with the existing ones big time while still sticking to the fantasy cliches more or less.
    How can there be little design space when professions aren't classes and the class-like WC3 abilities don't exist within the professions? How can there be an issue of overlap when no existing WoW class has a tech theme, or uses the aforementioned Tinker or Alchemist abilities?

    Your argument isn't logical.

    Odds are more likely that there will not be any new class added from old WC games for that very reason, and maybe not any class at all since so far adding classes has been huge clusterfuck of balancing nightmare. 11 classes and 34 specs is already a lot.
    Please link us to the post where Blizzard said that balancing 11 classes and 34 specs is a balancing nightmare. If you can't find such a post, then you're merely projecting your viewpoint onto the Blizzard staff.

    Especially something like tinker would be the biggest headache ever for designers which is one more reason it's definitely not coming. Just think of how big pain engineering has been over the years for the game balancing effort to make it useful and not totally OP in PvP. For the same reason any class that occupies the same thematic space (creating toys to do stuff for him) would be a nightmare to balance.
    Um, Engineering has been a balancing pain because Blizzard tried to make it a unique profession by giving it items it could use in combat. That issue won't exist in a class, because a class is designed to have offensive and defensive capabilities.

    You still don't get the difference between theme and anal-retentive nitpicking.

    Cluster Rocket does aoe stun and aoe damage, both effects exists in multiple classes already. also for engineers in some form. If you're looking for identical abilities you wont find everything even from basic classes that would map directly between WoW and WC3, but when you start looking at the effects instead of numbers "rockets falling from the sky dealing damage" you do find the exact same effect from current engineering skill.
    Link me to some of these engineering abilities. If you're talking about Hand-Mounted Pyro Rocket, you're wrong. It's not the same effect, doesn't have the same name, and its an item enchant instead of an ability. It doesn't even fall from the sky....

    Also why do we need to scour Engineering for an item that isn't remotely similar to the ability in question when we have the ability in question already? Are you trying to desperately find an Engineering=Tinker link that doesn't exist?

    I would say yes.

  17. #2217
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
    Blatantly ignoring a fact and repeating that blatant ignorance over and over again isn't finding holes in people's arguments man. In fact, it's something else entirely, and it does little to elevate the conversation.
    Like your post here for example; Why are you trying so desperately to link Cluster Rocket to items that are clearly not Cluster Rocket? What's even more embarrassing about this is that Teriz already showed you an ability actually called Cluster Rocket that actually resembles the Tinker ability.
    You said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
    Which doesn't change the fact that one is AoE and one is single target.
    When I pointed out that the 'cluster rocket' Teriz pointed out is actually just a single entity that does damage. One rocket miss, all do. If doing 'AoE' is all that matters, I gave you something that does exactly that, that comes from engineering. That is what having a hole in your argument means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
    You compound that nonsense with hypocrisy, because I distinctly remember Teriz pointing out WC3 abilities to you that appeared in the classes, and you repeatedly denied that those abilities were similar, were representations of the ability in WoW, or were even related to those abilities at all.
    Elusive Brawler doesn't represent Drunken Brawler (when we KNOW that Blizzard changed the name), yet the Hand Mounted Pyro Rocket and the G1 Landshark represents Cluster Rocket?
    Again, that isn't finding holes in people's arguments. Quite the opposite actually.
    And I dare you to re-read that post you linked. Teriz gave four abilities. Out of those four, I recognized three there were adapted and brought to WoW, with only one of them being a 100% new creation for WoW.
    Elusive Brawler was created from scratch for Monks. None of its effects reflect any of the Pandaren Brewmaster's abilities. Meanwhile the Landshark does. ranged AoE damage, just like you asked.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    52% feel that there is no chance. 48% feels that there is a chance.
    You think that's an overwhelming majority?
    If you are going to make it binary, make it fair. <50% for 'no' and >50% for 'yes'.

    And since 0-20% is basically 'no chance' when compared to the other percentages, just adding those three we have nearly 70%, so yes, that's over two times the amount for 'yes', so it's overwhelming majority.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2014-03-19 at 12:12 PM.

  18. #2218
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    [B]
    When I pointed out that the 'cluster rocket' Teriz pointed out is actually just a single entity that does damage. One rocket miss, all do. If doing 'AoE' is all that matters, I gave you something that does exactly that, that comes from engineering. That is what having a hole in your argument means.
    AoE matters because it differentiates the ability from a single target ability. Surely you understand this don't you?

    That's not even getting into the other problems of your "argument";

    G1 Landshark:
    -Ground Based mine
    -Item
    -Single target that does splash damage
    -1 minute CD

    Cluster Rocket:
    -Air Based rocket(s)
    -Ability
    -Radius AoE attack
    -15 second CD

    And let's not forget that your argument is that G1 Landshark represents this WC3 ability in WoW;

    Cluster Rocket
    Bombards an area with rockets, stunning enemy land units for 1 second and damaging nearby enemy units.
    Wouldn't Cluster Rocket represent Cluster Rocket in WoW?

    And I dare you to re-read that post you linked. Teriz gave four abilities. Out of those four, I recognized three there were adapted and brought to WoW, with only one of them being a 100% new creation for WoW.
    Elusive Brawler was created from scratch for Monks. None of its effects reflect any of the Pandaren Brewmaster's abilities. Meanwhile the Landshark does. ranged AoE damage, just like you asked.
    So does Elusive Brawler represent the Drunken Brawler ability from WC3?

    Also I distinctly remember you arguing that Mage's teleport ability isn't the same ability as the Archmage's teleport ability. Even though both are called teleport, and both teleports parties to friendly locations. Care to talk about that one?
    Last edited by Teriz; 2014-03-19 at 12:26 PM.

  19. #2219
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    AoE matters because it differentiates the ability from a single target ability. Surely you understand this don't you?
    That's not even getting into the other problems of your "argument";

    G1 Landshark:
    -Ground Based mine
    -Item
    -Single target that does splash damage
    -1 minute CD

    Cluster Rocket:
    -Air Based rocket(s)
    -Ability
    -Radius AoE attack
    -15 second CD
    What's the matter? Both are AoE damage.

    Wouldn't Cluster Rocket represent Cluster Rocket in WoW?
    I don't think so? According to your own rules, it needs to also AoE stun the mobs, and the WoW ability does not do so, therefore, again, by your own rules, why should it represent the ability?

    So does Elusive Brawler represent the Drunken Brawler ability from WC3?
    How did you get such a wrongful reading of what I wrote? Elusive Brawler doesn't have the same name, or even remotely similar effects. How can you possibly argue that while claiming abilities that do basically the same thing aren't the same? You either have to be a troll for that, or be Teriz. Probably going to get infracted for that, but your roundabout type of logic is astounding.

    Also I distinctly remember you arguing that Mage's teleport ability isn't the same ability as the Archmage's teleport ability. Even though both are called teleport, and both teleports parties to friendly locations. Care to talk about that one?
    Oh, that. I was just applying your logic to those.

  20. #2220
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    What's the matter? Both are AoE damage.
    That's about the only thing they have in common.

    I don't think so? According to your own rules, it needs to also AoE stun the mobs, and the WoW ability does not do so, therefore, again, by your own rules, why should it represent the ability?
    Where did I say that the ability needs to be EXACTLY like the WC3 ability? Clearly when it has the same name, same function, and same purpose, its pretty much the same thing.

    For example, Feral Spirit doesn't work EXACTLY like the WC3 ability. However, Feral Spirit clearly represents the WC3 ability in WoW.


    How did you get such a wrongful reading of what I wrote? Elusive Brawler doesn't have the same name, or even remotely similar effects. How can you possibly argue that while claiming abilities that do basically the same thing aren't the same? You either have to be a troll for that, or be Teriz. Probably going to get infracted for that, but your roundabout type of logic is astounding.
    It doesn't have the same name because Blizzard changed it in beta due to rating reasons. It doesn't have the same effect because of balance reasons. However, Blizzard clearly took inspiration from the Drunken Brawler ability from WC3, and Elusive Brawler clearly represents Drunken Brawler from WC3.

    Oh, that. I was just applying your logic to those.
    So you now admit that the Mage took more than just the Frost abilities from the Archemage?

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