Will Tinkers be a class in WoW?

[Teriz]

The magic is in the reagents, not the enchanter. Enchanting is nothing like a mage, or warlock, or priest, or shaman.

Oh boy.... So you're saying that when an Enchanter disenchants a magical item, the weapon is turning itself into a reagent and the Enchanter has nothing to do with it?

But a Tinker is everything engineering.

And a Mage is everything (arcane) magic.

You mean you can't use the 'tinkering' to your belt to launch grenades, or attaching a rocket launcher to your gloves cannot be used for DPS? The guns created by engineers cannot be used by hunters to do DPS? Oh, my.

You mean the Hand Mounted Pyro Rocket? The rocket that does crappy damage every 45 seconds? Yeah, use only that and the belt grenade launcher that also does pitiful damage. Your DPS meter will be so low they'll toss you out the raid, and probably the guild altogether.

In a more serious note, you're holding onto the notion that 'class niche' matters above all else. Which it doesn't. If we didn't have the engineering profession I'd agree with you. But we do, and therefore the whole of the tech theme has already been taken.

Where did I say that class matters above all else? I said that Classes and Professions are two different things that occupy two different design spaces and two different niches within the game.

And BTW, its not the same theme. The Engineering theme is a crafter who creates tech items. A Tinker is a hero that uses technology to protect allies and defeat enemies.

It matters none if the engineering profession can or cannot tank/dps/heal/dance macarena/fart/etc.

It matters completely, because it means that they're not the same thing.

That is a fail example since the only reason a paladin cannot wield a gun in-game is purely game design choice. Nothing stops a paladin from grabbing a gun and shooting it aside from that single game mechanic.

We're talking about game design and theme. It also disproves your notion that an Engineer can use everything they create.

In a nutshell? Yes. In more detail? Yes, because the Paladin has been adventuring his whole life. Blackfuse, your example, did not. He spent his whole life in a laboratory doing nothing but engineering.

What Blackfuse was doing before SoO is irrelevant. What is relevant is what Blackfuse can do with technology and what our Engineering Paladin can't do with technology. Blackfuse shows that there is a level of technology in WoW that Engineering can't reach. That forms a hole if we are to believe that Engineering is the end-all, be-all of player-based technology in WoW. That hole is a niche that Engineering can't fill, but a class would be more than able to fill.

In short, Blackfuse (and other Tinker NPCs) disprove your argument, because they demonstrate that Azerothian tech goes above and beyond the Engineering profession. Your argument is like saying that Enchanting fills the niche of magic, despite the fact that we're constantly fighting Mages throwing ridiculously powerful spells at us.

A profession can't do what a class can because it's a profession, not a class. But the whole tech niche has already been taken, by the engineering.

Nice contradiction.

And oh. My. God. I won't even bother answering your hunter comparison. Too stupid.

Yes, it's as stupid as your comparison between Engineering and a Tinker class.

[Ielenia]

Oh boy.... So you're saying that when an Enchanter disenchants a magical item, the weapon is turning itself into a reagent and the Enchanter has nothing to do with it?

No. It turns into a broken item, and the enchantment within them is disassembled into the reagents we know: dust, essences and crystals.

You mean the Hand Mounted Pyro Rocket? The rocket that does crappy damage every 45 seconds? Yeah, use only that and the belt grenade launcher that also does pitiful damage. Your DPS meter will be so low they'll toss you out the raid, and probably the guild altogether.

What? Just because it doesn't scale with your level doesn't mean you can't put a rocket launcher to your gloves.

Where did I say that class matters above all else?

You say that every time I say that the whole 'technology' theme has already been taken by the engineering profession.

And BTW, its not the same theme. The Engineering theme is a crafter who creates tech items. A Tinker is a hero that uses technology to protect allies and defeat enemies.

The engineering theme is a crafter who creates tech items to protect allies and defeat enemies. Your Tinker is a crafter who creates tech items. See how interchangeable it is?

We're talking about game design and theme. It also disproves your notion that an Engineer can use everything they create.

No. I'm talking about theme. You're using game mechanics to argue against theme.

What Blackfuse was doing before SoO is irrelevant.... In short, Blackfuse (and other Tinker NPCs) disprove your argument, because they demonstrate that Azerothian tech goes above and beyond the Engineering profession. Your argument is like saying that Enchanting fills the niche of magic, despite the fact that we're constantly fighting Mages throwing ridiculously powerful spells at us.

Oh, but it does. It amounts to what he did before this moment in time. If your paladin took the engineering profession but kept it at level 1, while I leveled all the way to max, both our characters are still engineers. Blackfuse is simply at a level above what a player character can get.

Nice contradiction.

Contradiction? Where? First part I talked about the difference between class and profession. The second part I talked about niches. There is no contradiction.

Yes, it's as stupid as your comparison between Engineering and a Tinker class.

Just because you abstract everything that goes against your class design doesn't mean they don't exist, you know?

And, with that, I am done arguing with Teriz. The 'Tinker' is not only his love child, but apparently also his life line, judging by the way he clings to it. Say what you want, Teriz. Nothing will make your class idea any less engineering and any less improbable than it already is.

[Faenavi]

A Tinker would be a master engineer, I think if Tinkers became a playable class they should embrace engineering and have it be beneficial to be a Tinker and take up engineering. For example remember the day when hunters needed to carry around ammunition and have it made for them, that could apply to Tinkers. They would need to have bombs and such made and they would carry it around with them for battle, and these bombs would become viable in battle and actually cause damage. But on the other hand that would suck to have to carry around a bag full of bombs taking up inventory slots, so they would need to make "bomb spells", and I think they would use focus like hunters and would need agility and stamina to go around throwing explosives. And again mail armor. Also if Tinkers became a class I think engineers need to get blueprints to make Tinker specific armor.
Some people say it would be recycling if they made a Tinker class because we can be engineers but we can not go into battle as an engineer, I want to kill and explode stuff with bombs and rockets I am all for a Tinker class. And Blizzard is known for recycling stuff in game...I would be delighted to have them "recycle" to make a Tinker class. Also for the people who don't like the Tinker idea guess what, you would not have to play the class. Not every expansion appeals to everyone, some expansions are the best ever for one person while really lacking for another. Blizzard can't please everyone on every expansion. Also if a Tinker class is added in an expansion I don't see that being the only class and/or race added.

[giovannileanza]

You already have tinkers, it's called the engineer profession. What's the point of this, Blizz isn't gonna add any new class. Ever. Yeah i know, we got Death Knights. But if ya ask me it went like this: Blizz already wanted to add DK to the game from the get go, but for some reason couldn't do it yet. They kept it in dev hell (or planning the strategy for WoW ahead for the coming years, when to do what etc.) untill they could finally add the class in Lich King, the end. It's always the same story in the world of development.

"blabla we wanted to do this and that but couldn't do it yet due to X reason. We're really thrilled we can finally do it now."

Been there done that.

[Teriz]

No. It turns into a broken item, and the enchantment within them is disassembled into the reagents we know: dust, essences and crystals.

No, you take an item with magical properties and you magically break it down into magical material so that you can infuse an item with magic later.

That's called a magical ability.

What? Just because it doesn't scale with your level doesn't mean you can't put a rocket launcher to your gloves.

True, but it also means you can't use it by itself for competitive DPS purposes.

You say that every time I say that the whole 'technology' theme has already been taken by the engineering profession.

Because you're making a false statement. Pointing out the lack of a technology class shows the falsity of your statement.

The engineering theme is a crafter who creates tech items to protect allies and defeat enemies. Your Tinker is a crafter who creates tech items. See how interchangeable it is?

Except Classes do not "craft" items, so a Tinker class would also not craft items. Additionally, how is crafting a pair of goggles for sell in the auction house protecting allies? Engineers are trying to make a profit, not work with a group of heroes to take down an enemy.

Oh, but it does. It amounts to what he did before this moment in time.

Except we have no idea what Blackfuse was doing before Siege, so your entire assumption about what he was doing is completely irrelevant.

If your paladin took the engineering profession but kept it at level 1, while I leveled all the way to max, both our characters are still engineers. Blackfuse is simply at a level above what a player character can get

If you leveled to max Engineer, the only thing you could do different than me is craft fancier vehicles and guns. You can't do anything close to what Blackfuse was doing because the profession isn't capable of emulating those abilities. A class on the other hand....

Contradiction? Where? First part I talked about the difference between class and profession. The second part I talked about niches. There is no contradiction.

You admitted that there is a difference between a class and a profession, and then went on to say that there would be no difference between a tech-based class and a tech-based profession. Hence, a contradiction.

And, with that, I am done..

You were done a long time ago. At this point you're simply tripping over your own nonsense. Good riddance.

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You already have tinkers, it's called the engineer profession. What's the point of this, Blizz isn't gonna add any new class. Ever. Yeah i know, we got Death Knights. But if ya ask me it went like this: Blizz already wanted to add DK to the game from the get go, but for some reason couldn't do it yet. They kept it in dev hell (or planning the strategy for WoW ahead for the coming years, when to do what etc.) untill they could finally add the class in Lich King, the end. It's always the same story in the world of development.

"blabla we wanted to do this and that but couldn't do it yet due to X reason. We're really thrilled we can finally do it now."

Been there done that.

You do know that we got Monks too right?

And there will be at least one more new class. The missing mail armor class pretty much guarantees it.

[Ielenia]

You were done a long time ago. At this point you're simply tripping over your own nonsense. Good riddance.

I was actually done, but you decided to insult me. Way to go. I'll just say this. What I wrote is not nonsense. You, on the other hand, are full of it. Your class cannot exist because we already have the tech niche filled. Much like we can't have a 'chemist' because the alchemy niche is filled. And why we can't have a necromancer class because both the 'death' and 'pet' niches were taken, by DKs and Warlocks, respectively. And why we can't have the Demon Hunter class because there is nothing left for the Demon Hunter *be* since all its concept has been split between certain WoW classes. And why we can't have Spellbreakers because the spellbreaker's concept abilities are too disruptive of gameplay. No class should have so many spell removals/interrupts.

Got it? Good. I'm through.

[Trollfat]

There will be no tinkerers. It's already a profession.

There will be no demon hunters. Its a class in diablo.

I wish people would stop making these threads. It's irritating.

[Solzan Nemesis]

There will be no tinkerers. It's already a profession.

There will be no demon hunters. Its a class in diablo.

I wish people would stop making these threads. It's irritating.

...And let me guess. Zelda saves Hyrule too? *sarcastic voice*

[Thunderball]

Lots of silly ideas wont be a class in WoW. What a bummer.

[Blufossa]

I hope not. They are too close to engineers, i doubt blizz will want to add tinkers.

This comment made me giggle.

Engineers and Tinker's sound alike, but are not exactly the same. It would also give Hunters someone to fight over guns with perhaps (for once) and give us a Mail-wearing tank (for once).

[Teriz]

I was actually done, but you decided to insult me. Way to go. I'll just say this. What I wrote is not nonsense. You, on the other hand, are full of it. Your class cannot exist because we already have the tech niche filled. Much like we can't have a 'chemist' because the alchemy niche is filled. And why we can't have a necromancer class because both the 'death' and 'pet' niches were taken, by DKs and Warlocks, respectively. And why we can't have the Demon Hunter class because there is nothing left for the Demon Hunter *be* since all its concept has been split between certain WoW classes. And why we can't have Spellbreakers because the spellbreaker's concept abilities are too disruptive of gameplay. No class should have so many spell removals/interrupts.

You do understand that out of all those examples you mentioned, the Tinker/Engineering comparison is the least viable right? Mainly because the Tinker class and the Engineering profession don't share themes, design space, or even abilities. Why? Because a class can never share the same theme, design space, or abilities as a profession. Likewise, a profession's niche is to create craftable items for other players. A class' niche is to perform a role within the trinity of tanking, DPS, or HPS.

You actually agree with all of that. Which makes your statements above so hilarious, and simply highlights how silly your argument was from the get-go.

Who would actually argue that a class and a profession are the same?

You would.

Who would actually argue that a profession fills the entire niche when there's clearly aspects of the theme outside of the profession's scope?

You would.

Who would actually argue that using the Engineering gadgets allows you to have competitive DPS in a raid environment?

You would.

Who would actually argue that a Paladin with max Engineering is just like a playable version of Siegecrafter Blackfuse?

You would.

I'm through.

We know.....

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There will be no tinkerers. It's already a profession.

How does a profession that has nothing to do with the class stop said class from entering the game?

There will be no demon hunters. Its a class in diablo.

Hilarious.

I wish people would stop making these threads. It's irritating.

I wish people would read the thread before posting in it. It's irritating.

[beanman12345]

I think they'll limit it to gimmicky boss fights and engineering, no full blown class. But I wouldn't say 0% but probably close.

[Ielenia]

Who would actually argue that a class and a profession are the same?

I would. Because both are the exact same thing. Tech-based characters that create and use various technological gadgets for a variety of uses.

Who would actually argue that a profession fills the entire niche when there's clearly aspects of the theme outside of the profession's scope?

I would. Because the profession does take the whole niche. The profession already makes bombs, already makes robots, already makes all kinds of tech stuff.

Who would actually argue that using the Engineering gadgets allows you to have competitive DPS in a raid environment?

Some 'tinker' options of the engineer profession are more powerful than other enchant options for that special gear slot. And the tinker helms are basically BiS during the first tier of raiding.

Who would actually argue that a Paladin with max Engineering is just like a playable version of Siegecrafter Blackfuse?

I don't know who would. I mean, all I said is that both are engineers with different amounts of time spent in their profession.

How does a profession that has nothing to do with the class stop said class from entering the game?

Engineering has nothing to do with your Tinker just like demons have nothing to do with the Warlock class.

Hilarious.

Indeed.

I wish people would read the thread before posting in it. It's irritating.

We do.

EDIT: Actually, here is a small question for you? What can your Tinker do that an enginner cannot? I mean, aside from the whole 'select tank/heal/dps markers in the LFR menu'.

[Danuru]

Let's see if I can offer a constructive post in a polite manner.

First off, I want to start off by saying that entirely alone, nothing else considered, tinker sounds like a great idea. But all things considered, I think it is not, and here is my reasoning:

The tinker class, however much you say it is either completely the same or nothing like engineering, shares a technological niche with it. That is something you cannot not reasonably argue. With that being said, in order for engineering to continue being worthwhile by any stretch, tinkering must not exist. Because how do you keep things exclusive? Will tinkers have a class specific mount? If you say yes, then engineers will be unhappy, because it's something they should be able to make. The class is essentially stealing a mount possibility from engineers. If you say no, then tinkers are being robbed of something that would help define their class. One cannot be complete, without diminishing the other. That is why I believe a tinker class just wouldn't work.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

There will be no tinkerers. It's already a profession.

There will be no demon hunters. Its a class in diablo.

I wish people would stop making these threads. It's irritating.

Good to hear. For a moment I thought we were actually gonna get Monks. We don't want any of those Diablo classes in WoW.

[Teriz]

I would. Because both are the exact same thing.

Yet you also said this;

A profession can't do what a class can because it's a profession, not a class.

So which is it?

I would. Because the profession does take the whole niche. The profession already makes bombs, already makes robots, already makes all kinds of tech stuff.

Where's the ability to fight in a mech suit? Where's the abilities from the WC3 hero? Where's the laser abilities? Where's the AoE attacks like Overload and Magnetic Saw Blade that do some actual damage? Where's my technology-based healing abilities?

Looks like the "whole niche" has some holes in it.

Some 'tinker' options of the engineer profession are more powerful than other enchant options for that special gear slot. And the tinker helms are basically BiS during the first tier of raiding.

Still doesn't mean you perform competitive DPS only using Engineering items.

I don't know who would. I mean, all I said is that both are engineers with different amounts of time spent in their profession.

Except the Palain with Engineering will never be able to reach the level of technical mastery of Blackfuse. Indicating that Blackfuse is using something different than Engineering to achieve his power (hint: he's a Siegecrafter). A prime example would be Death Knights. A Death Knight will eventually reach or approach Arthas' level of power because they truly are the same thing. Which is why you're seeing the Lich King's abilities slowly make their way into the DK class. You will NEVER see any of Blackfuse, or even the WC3 hero's abilities enter Engineering.

Because they're not the same.

EDIT: Actually, here is a small question for you? What can your Tinker do that an enginner cannot? I mean, aside from the whole 'select tank/heal/dps markers in the LFR menu'.

1. Kill mobs of equal level using technology.
2. Utilize the hammer/claw tank.
3. Use technology to heal.
4. Use lasers.
5. Have abilities that scale with level.
6. Have abilities that can be used instead of items that have to be crafted.
7. Has offensive and defensive cooldowns.
8. Uses sawblades
9. Has mechanical minions
10. Has the Tinker hero abilities from WC3.

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Let's see if I can offer a constructive post in a polite manner.

First off, I want to start off by saying that entirely alone, nothing else considered, tinker sounds like a great idea. But all things considered, I think it is not, and here is my reasoning:

The tinker class, however much you say it is either completely the same or nothing like engineering, shares a technological niche with it. That is something you cannot not reasonably argue. With that being said, in order for engineering to continue being worthwhile by any stretch, tinkering must not exist. Because how do you keep things exclusive? Will tinkers have a class specific mount? If you say yes, then engineers will be unhappy, because it's something they should be able to make. The class is essentially stealing a mount possibility from engineers. If you say no, then tinkers are being robbed of something that would help define their class. One cannot be complete, without diminishing the other. That is why I believe a tinker class just wouldn't work.

Honest question: How does a Tinker tanking, healing, or DPSing in a dungeon/raid, or participating in battlegrounds, or just performing quests around the world, in any way "diminish" an Engineer gathering items together to make a pair of goggles?

Since having a class mount isn't a requirement (since every class doesn't have a class mount), I don't see how that's an issue.

[Danuru]

Honest question: How does a Tinker tanking, healing, or DPSing in a dungeon/raid, or participating in battlegrounds, or just performing quests around the world, in any way "diminish" an Engineer gathering items together to make a pair of goggles?

Since having a class mount isn't a requirement (since every class doesn't have a class mount), I don't see how that's an issue.

An engineer is more than making goggles, it has a feel to it, with lore to boot. Being an engineer is the most unique profession in the game, and it's fun. You're trying to compare the unique things an engineer can accomplish to to making a leather vest. And you're choosing the most boring object they can make, the goggles, in order to prove your point. By doing so, you are already trying to diminish the profession in order to justify the class.

Secondly, the mount was the most simple example to present. I can go on about bombs, devices, and other things, but I feel there is no need to put an extensive list on every possibility. The grand point is, is that with the creation of the Tinker, engineers will feel watered down.

[Teriz]

An engineer is more than making goggles, it has a feel to it, with lore to boot. Being an engineer is the most unique profession in the game, and it's fun. You're trying to compare the unique things an engineer can accomplish to to making a leather vest. And you're choosing the most boring object they can make, the goggles, in order to prove your point. By doing so, you are already trying to diminish the profession in order to justify the class.

Secondly, the mount was the most simple example to present. I can go on about bombs, devices, and other things, but I feel there is no need to put an extensive list on every possibility. The grand point is, is that with the creation of the Tinker, engineers will feel watered down.

But again, how would a class hurt a profession? I mean, you can still roll Engineering as a Tinker. The class wouldn't compete with the profession in making guns, mounts, toys, and armor, and the profession's bombs, grenades and other toys have been getting neutered since WotLK.

So what's the problem? Wouldn't a tech-based class enhance a tech-based profession?

[Ielenia]

Yet you also said this;
So which is it?

You're taking my answers out of context to suit your needs. I said what you quoted because you argued that an 'engineer' cannot select tank, dps or healer specs.

Where's the ability to fight in a mech suit? Where's the abilities from the WC3 hero? Where's the laser abilities? Where's the AoE attacks like Overload and Magnetic Saw Blade that do some actual damage? Where's my technology-based healing abilities?

Looks like the "whole niche" has some holes in it.

Still doesn't mean you perform competitive DPS only using Engineering items.

Stop grasping for straws. Engineers make bombs, robots, rockets, everything tech-based. You're trying to argue back by asking specifics. A tech crafter is a tech crafter. Both create bombs, weapons, missles and robots. Any distinction you try to come up with are nothing but differences in scale, which means you're using to argue theme, like I said before.

Except the Palain with Engineering will never be able to reach the level of technical mastery of Blackfuse. Indicating that Blackfuse is using something other than Engineering to achieve his power. A prime example would be Death Knights. You will NEVER see any of Blackfuse, or even the WC3 hero's abilities enter Engineering.

Blackfuse is nothing but an enginner with another class, probably warrior (guessing here), who focused his time on engineering. If a player had the same option, they would be able to create the same stuff Blackfuse can. However, again, for gameplay and balance issues, we cannot.

Also, never say never. Blizzard might decide to add the Crawler mines for Engineering for this next expansion. Or the lasers. And the WC3 hero abilities, well, we can already make rockets! And making a building factory that spews out clockwork goblins is overpowered, no matter how you see it.

1. Kill mobs of equal level using technology. done
2. Utilize the hammer/claw tank. what are you talking about?
3. Use technology to heal. You mean the potion/mana injectors
4. Use lasers. Not yet. Arguing specifics
5. Have abilities that scale with level. That isn't something the tinker does. That's something any class does. You're arguing mechanics again.
6. Have abilities that can be used instead of items that have to be crafted. Mechanics...
7. Has offensive and defensive cooldowns. offensive: Hyperspeed Accelerators. Defensive: Reticulated Armor Webbing. Those are two of many.
8. Uses sawblades Not yet. Also, again: arguing specifics.
9. Has mechanical minions Jeeves. Blingtron. Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling. To name a few.
10. Has the Tinker hero abilities from WC3. It's not the same name, but we have the Landshark.

Honest question: How does a Tinker tanking, healing, or DPSing in a dungeon/raid, or participating in battlegrounds, or just performing quests around the world, in any way "diminish" an Engineer gathering items together to make a pair of goggles?

Since having a class mount isn't a requirement (since every class doesn't have a class mount), I don't see how that's an issue.

Once again, I'll repeat for the nth time, you're arguing game mechanics when we're all arguing theme. There is simply no space left to be used for a Tinker. Are we missing a tech-based class? Yes. Can we have a tech-based class? No. Because the whole technology theme is being used by the Engineering profession.

[hrugner]

Good to hear. For a moment I thought we were actually gonna get Monks. We don't want any of those Diablo classes in WoW.

It's silly that I mentally skipped over this example and went straight to the crusader despite the class name change.